Schumacher winning 6 titles with 2 teams, or Fangio winning 5 titles with multiple teams? Schumacher has built the Ferrari team around him, and is a huge factor in him having won all of these titles. I still believe his most impressive Championship win was his very first, in a Ford V8 powered Benneton. Fangio, on the other hand, basically would join a new team, and go on to win a World Championship in the first year with the team. Having said this, I would have to go with Fangio.
Hard to compare as the times and conditions were so different. Fangio's cars were lethally dangerous. Not that a modern F1 car is safe, but a lot safer. OTOH competition in Fangio's days was a lot different, if not to say lower: Many rich Sunday afternoon drivers (hmm, sounds like Baumgartner, doesn't it?). Fangio was able to pull his wins off without much personal fitness. For me the bottom line is still the number of titles, where obviously MS wins. But even if that weren't the case, the fact, that he built both race teams up from the ground and built the environment in which he is now so successful makes him the bigger man in my eyes. But as I said, it is hard to compare across decades.
Whilst I realise it's not the question, in my mind recently I've been comparing Valentino Rossi to these F1 guys. He's won multiple world championships in multiple classes/categories, and now leaves his winning manufacturer (Honda) as world champion and goes to what was before a losing team (Yamaha) and wins the very first race he has with them, and is coming second in the championship in the first year with that new team! I don't know of any other story that could compare with that. Ok, now back to MS and Fangio......
Hmmm, MS leaves winning Benetton team (2 years in a row) and ignores multiple offers from the all conquering McLaren and Williams team and goes to hopeless Ferrari team that has hardly won a race let along 2 in a row for 21 years. First Ferrari win for MS occurred in first year in pouring rain amazing all that were watching. MS continues to race and do impossible things with absolute crap cars that are painted red. These cars are so pathetic that he is unable to start the French GP in 97' (I think) because the engine blows up on the warm up lap. MS shows his complete professionality by not going beserk at Ferrari via the press but instead says something like: I sometimes make mistakes and so does the team, it goes both ways but we are working hard together to bring Ferrari up from the ashes .... Team grow to love the guy because he respects them and an amazing bond is developed ... something his brother is too thick to understand. Saying that Rossi is one special person, but the parallel is there ... Pete
BTW: Fangio is not revered just because of the number of WC's he won but by the amazing race wins he managed, ie. Nurburgring in '57 when he smashed the lap record over and over again after a pitstop stuff up to win the race ... and thus the WC. These things make legends not statistics ... Pete
Andreas, I would agree on all points. This weekend in Montreal we witnessed an accident that few saw in its raw devastating fury. Fisicella's (sp?) Sauber looked to have had a rear brake rotor failure near the end of the race. It happened as he was attempting to brake from top speed entering the hairpin. The whole incident took two seconds at most and was not seen in its entirety on TV. The rotor took out the rear suspension and the rear wheel separated from the car - there was no braking left (lost rear wheel/opposite front wheel unloaded). He hit the tire barrier straight on at what surely was in excess of 130mph. After a few long minutes with the track safety crew hovering over him, he came out of the car and walked under his own power. The crowd had a pall cast over it for the thought of what we might have just witnessed. These cars are much safer than anything prior. Incidentally, the rear wheel came off its tether and bounced once over the fence and hurtled into the stands. Its miraculous no one was hurt seriously. Regarding strength, I don't know how well any of the current F1 pilots could man-handle a 50s era F1 car around the track. It took real men with upper body strength to do what they did. No powersteering, fingertip shifting, or ground effects to help them - they had to work. Ciao
I think it's gotten to the point where can you effectively consider an F1 car safe. I don't know how many 250kmph + accidents have occured in the last few years where the driver suffered no major injuries. The worst that usually happens is they're knocked unconcious as a result of the 40G impact. F1 car safety has improved by leaps and bounds in the last 10 years since Senna's crash, and it improved greatly again in the 2001 season when new safety regulations came into play (notice how the cars went from high-nose in 2000 to low nose in 2001? - Largely a result of new safety standards). So, alongside the carbon-fibre safety tubs, crumple zones and safety-maximising driver seating position you now have the HANS system to further improve things. About the only thing which could really seriously injure or kill an F1 driver these days is an impact to the head by debris from an accident, or a high speed T-bone type collision with another car.
The answer is: there is no answer. Fangio was a legend in his time; MS is a legend within his. Problem being, the two men are seperated by over half a century. Moreover, questions like these, always culminate at the same place that the chicken and egg questions start -- without one to compare against, you wouldn't know; but without the other to compare to, you'd have no comparison. These questions are akin to asking whether Newton was a greater intellect than Einstein; or if Copernicus was a greater man than Hawking. Newton's laws seem so obvious now, but even he stood atop the shoulders of giants. There is no comparison -- we should finally just allow ourselves to enjoy history in the making without this perpetual need to justify it by comparing it against the past.
tuttlbenne, My guess (and the emphasis is on guess) is that most of today's racers keep their fitness and strength at a level that few drivers ever attained in the past, and that they'd have no more trouble than drivers of the past in handling the cars of that era.
Actually it was Massa. Luckily, because Fisico was well ahead of him and ended up 4th collecting 5 valuable points for the Ferrari B team. Other than that I agree. Massa would have died ten years ago from this crash. As would have Fisico last year in Sao Paulo or Burti a few years ago in Spa. The monocoques appear unbreakable and the HANS does its job as well.
Pete, I agree with your statements in general. However what you call team building talk, to me is the ultimate boring whitewashed by the public relations department speech one can imagine. MS learned to talk this (unnatural) way back at Mercedes and it stuck with him. This is exactly why I can't stand the guy in his post race interviews. Remember Regazzoni, Hunt, Prost, Mansell, Irvine? Those guys spoke their minds. We would know what was wrong with the car. They took no prisoners. Obviously F1 is big business now and so the drivers speak like company spokesperson. It's part of the game now. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. PS: The ultimate whitewash was obviously 1999 after Silverstone. MS not once publicly said what did him in (rear brake fluid cap was missing allegedly, a mechanic's mistake). I realize you consider that as team building. Esprit de corps. Great...
It was actually Fisichella's teamate, Felipe Massa, who crashed. He was fine. Fisichella finished 4th due to the DQ by Ralf. I think it is hard to compare Fangio and Schumacher but I will go with Fangio since he won it with multiple teams. Fangio's feat would be impossible today though.
Yes, there are no concrete answers. My thread is asking for your opinion, that is all. Asking for one's opinion makes for interesting conversation, which is what I enjoy reading.
One simple answer on a many times discussed subject: you can't compare great drivers from different eras. Besides that, in my opinion, there is NO such thing as the best driver of all times. Fangio is great, Schumacher is great. I remember his 1st win for Ferrari on a very wet Spanish track at Barcelona, very impressive what he did there! Although he is still one of the best drivers at this moment, I think from 2001 on most of the victories are because of the excellent Ferrari F1 cars and a bit less on Schumachers driving capabilities as the years before that. I still think 2000 was his best season ever.
I would go with Schumacher because just about every team Fangio went with was a team with a better car and or team than the previous. Schumacher took the tougher road and built a team up from the dumps.
If you were a mechanic working hard for the team ... how would you react with your driver telling the world that you stuffed up? Hardly going to endear you to the driver is it? How do you think Ferrari would have reacted if MS has done a nutter about the engine blowing up? All that would happen is when MS made a mistake they would have done a nutter at him ... to get even ... thus he was protecting himself. These things should happen in private ... we are outsiders and have nothing to do with it. Yep that is right NOTHING to do with it, we are just spectators ... You just want to see the drama like we are watching some reality TV program ... remember it is sport not a TV show (Bernie). While I agree with you that the interviews are boring, I believe you can be more interesting and good on the team at the same time. MS has decided not to do that ... ... I think this has more to do with the shear boredom of interviews! Pete's opinion
It doesn't sound like you race cars at all........I do - and if my crew fails in any way - that means I don't win / finish. However - if my crew puts together a fine car - and I fail to finish due to a driver error - spin, off track excursion - then I failed my crew. One can't win, place, or finish without the other..... and mutual support does indeed foster confidence which leads to wins / finishes. Moral of the story - constructive criticism at the factory will pay handsome dividends, public criticism loses face for the crew - which will lead to sloppiness, etc..........(is that an ancient Italian saying?)........
I'd say it's compairing apples and pears. I read a biography about Mike Hawthorn, the brit that was WC for Ferrari 1958. He was a bit of a ladiesman and a would spend the evening before a GP on a restarant or a night club. You don't see any of todays racedrivers do that. // Peter
Sounds we're not that far apart. I don't expect MS or anybody else to go ape over a failure from his crew. I don't expect a soap opera (although it'd be entertaining to watch, oh wait, we almost had that in Monaco). Just a bit more information. Especially in the press conferences. But I realize F1 is a secretive world, but wouldn't we all want for once like to hear something a bit more tangible than "The team did a fantastic job. To be honest I couldn't have wished for a better car" blablabla. virenk, you're right. I only race virtually, but there I don't get to answer questions. I understand your point and it makes perfect sense. But tell that e.g. to Prost as in 4 times world champion. He USED the media to get his wish and point across. Also got him fired from Ferrari. But it got him somewhere and it was entertaining and informative as well. Bottom line: Prost and MS probably represent the opposite poles on media coverage. Both are accomplished champions. But listening to Prost was 100 times more refreshing. At least to me. As I said, Mercedes PR training "ruined" MS for us.
Consider these facts first. Back then racing tracks were, mostly, city-like racing tracks. Cars didn't have the resources (power, electronics, components, aerodynamics, etc.) they have now. Tyres where mostly regular every-day driving tyres. Drivers were, for most part, blue-blood descendants of rich families trying to spice-up they boring lives. The number of grand prixs was about the half of it is now. My point is that a comparison between Fangio and MS is just like the guy in this forum said: in one hand we have an apple, on the other hand an orange. Enjoy Indy.
Put foot in mouth: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21668 MS does speak his mind (and I couldn't agree more with him). I bow my head.
