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Which kind of oil for '92 348?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by 348SStb, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    April 1992 348 Speciale, 2.7 Bosch ECU.

    The instruction book says to use "Sint 2000 SAE 10W 40"

    However, the dealer gave me a bottle of Mobil1 15W-50 to use. What is the proper oil for my 348?
     
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  3. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    15W50, that's crazy... maybe the dealer had some leftover or something.

    I run Mobil1 5W-30.

    -Daniel
     
  4. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Nov 19, 2001
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    The Bad Guy
    Same here, I use Mobile 1 5W-30. You can get it pretty cheap at Wal Mart.
     
  5. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Mobil One 0W-40
     
  6. RAYMAN

    RAYMAN Formula Junior
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    Mar 10, 2004
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    30W not heavy enough for hot climates..10-40W at least
     
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  8. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    Yeah, but he's in Long Island, NY. Warm, but not hot.
     
  9. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Well it is VERY humid here and temperatures are in the 90s during the summer...

    So what is the consensus? I appreciate the help...
     
  10. RAYMAN

    RAYMAN Formula Junior
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    Mar 10, 2004
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    Raymond Santilli
    Well, if you go with 10-40W your covered no matter what. As far as the brand goes, I've got Castrol in there now, but I'm switching to Sint on the next change. Several places you can get it online, used to be too hard to find.
     
  11. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
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    Hugh G. Rection
    I would agree that any of the 0w-40 or 5w-40 synthetics would be good. Mobil 1, Valvoline, and Shell all make them.
     
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  13. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Thanks... sounds like I should go with the Owner's Manual recommendation of 10W-40...

    Just out of curioisty, where can "Sint 2000" be bought? I did a couple of Google searches and couldn't find a seller...
     
  14. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    Just go get the Mobile 1 synthetic. The cars have oil coolers, and they also use almost three gallons of oil for lubrication. You can use dino juice, but I like the synthetics because they have a higher flash point than the convetional oils. In short they last longer and handle the heat better that regular oil. Don't waist your time trying to find the "special oil" the book recomends. It is expensive, a pain to find, and no better than the other synthetics mentioned.
     
  15. 348SStb

    348SStb F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    thanks ernie...
     
  16. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    May 29, 2001
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    BTW, I believe that FMNA recommends the Shell Helix 5w-40 for all the newer Ferraris, to include the 328/348 as I recall that mentioned at a tech session at FoS. They had mentioned that Ferrari takes into consideration the older cars and tries to make the currently recommended products backwards compatible as far back as practical.

    Using a 0W-40 oil should not be a problem (according to AE Haas' posts) in that the "0W" just gives you better flow at cold start.
     
  17. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,361
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    Ali E. Haas
    Dave is right. If you need a 40 wt. oil then use a 0W-40 but I would start with a 0W-30. I use 0W-20 in my 575M and am getting over the recommended pressure. I would go to a 0W-10 but there are none out (yet) that are for street use (having detergents and the like, unlike racing oils that have no detergents).

    Just a reminder, higher pressure equals less oil flow and it is the flow, not the pressure that lubes your motor. This is the most misunderstood aspect of motor lubrication.

    Finally, the ambient temperature here in Sarasota, Florida is higher yet the oil temperature does not vary. Oil temperature is basically outside temperature independent. Your coolant keeps the engine block at around 180 - 200F year round. The oil runs within this environment.
    The only time the temperature runs higher is under high HP output conditions as on the track.

    Most engine wear is caused by too thick an oil, not because it is too thin.

    aehaas

    Edit: There have been vast improvements in motor oils in the last decade since the manual for the 348 was written. Cars from the 1970's are a good example. The owners manual has no bearing on what to use today, none.

    As far as I can tell Sint 2000 is no longer made. It is obsolete.
    http://www.americanagip.com/content.asp?CustomerId=&HeaderNav=-1&Lang=2&Nav=Products&SubNav=4
     
  18. vincent355

    vincent355 F1 Veteran
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    Apr 8, 2003
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    i used mobil 1 10-40 in my 348 and it was no problem.

    In Mexico they sell used oil on the side of the road, any oil is better than no oil at all....
     
  19. jkuk

    jkuk Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
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    John K
    I am running Castrol RS 10-60W. Hard to get hold in the UK

    Any problems running that ????
     
  20. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    AE Haas...I wouldn't put you car near a race track with your oil recommendations.

    On the track, you'll need a 10w 60 or similar or it'll just turn to water and do you big damage.

    The 360 N-GT Michelottos' HAVE to have 10w 60 to even stand a hope in hell of making their 5000km engine freshen life span.

    Pressure saps power and raises temps, low flow raises temperature and risks starvation...somewhere is the happy ground!

    For road use 5w 40 is fine for most Ferrari post 1983 (Nicasil bores), if conditions are extreme then change but don't lose sleep over it. Just use good quality oils from big name brands...
     
  21. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    Franklin E. Parker
    You can order Agip SINT 2000 from their USA offices at 724.352.4451. I ordered a case a while back.
     
  22. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
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    The new GF-4 spec. is coming out this month. It has a decreased phosphorous content to further protect catalytic converters. They are supposed to be more stable too. Once again, oils are improving as we speak.

    Cars on the race track are using increasingly thinner oils that are lubricating MORE than thick oils and more important, they provide better cooling due to higher flow rates. Cooler parts wear less. The lubes in F1 engines are more as gasoline than oil.
    As time is passing we can see that all race oil manufacturers are making thinner and thinner lubricants. This is because the teams are asking for it.

    aehaas
     
  23. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
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    Ali E. Haas
    Agip does have one Synt 2000 left. It is a semi synthetic 10W-40 and only SJ rated. That spec was ? 5 years outdated now.

    aehaas
     
  24. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
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    Ali E. Haas
    Ferrarifixer, you would benefit by reading all my old posts.

    For example, the difference between a 20 and a 60 wt oils is several hundred centistokes at start up temperature, about 10 or 15 cS at 212F and about 3 cS at racing temperatures. In other words, the hotter the oil the more they become the exact same thickness. That is a property of motor oil.

    The reason that pressure drops with thinner oils is because thinner oils flow faster. Lubrication is not a function of thickness but rather a function of FLOW. Separation force is directly related to flow 1:1. Doubling the flow doubles the separation pressure.

    A 20 wt oil is not half as thick as a 40 Wt oil at 212F operating temperature. It is about 15 percent thinner and I would guess the flow rate increases about 30 percent going form 40 to the 20 wt oil. The flow is becoming more laminar than turbulent.

    I have to go now!

    aehaas
     
  25. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    The OM on my 1982 BB512i calls for Agip SINT2000 10w50 which is impossible to find. So I have been using Mobile One or Castrol 15w50. I have thought of using the Castrol RS 10w60 that is called for in my BMW M5. What do you think?
     
  26. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
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    Ali E. Haas
    My opinion on the motor oils is based on viscosities. By this I mean less honey like at start up temperatures and appropriate for the required viscosity at operating temperature. I broke it down to two classes, 1-Fully Synthetic and 2-Mineral (dino) oils and blends of dino and synthetic. The asterisk is my preferred from each group of very similar products. Remember, all oils are too thick at start up. There is no such thing as an oil that is too thin below 100F. The thinnest motor oil made is still too thick at start up temperatures.

    The oil range you need is dependent on your actual useage, that is how you drive the car. In general you should use the viscosity that gives you 10 PSI at 1,000 RPM and 60 PSI at 6,000 RPM, not more, not less. The 575M owners manual asks for 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM, a little more than average.

    If you drive as I do, just around town then a 0W-10 wt. oil is appropriate in my car. If I was to drive on the track then I would need a slightly thicker oil to get the SAME pressure as I do around town.




    Recommendations:

    . Synthetic Class:

    60 wt:
    Redline straight 60 wt racing oil (racing only, acts as a SAE 20W-60 oil)
    Valvoline SynPower 20W-50*

    50 wt:
    Castrol Syntec 5W-50
    Shell Helix Ultra 15W-50
    Penn Synthetic 5W-50*

    40 wt:
    Mobil 1, 0W-40*
    Shell Helix Ultra 5W-50

    30 wt:
    Mobil 1, 0W-30*
    Penn Synthetic 5W-30

    20 wt:
    Mobil 1, 0W-20*
    Valvoline SynPower 5W-20



    . Non-Synthetic and synthetic blends:

    60 wt:
    Castrol Syntec Blend 20W-50

    50 wt:
    None recommended - all relatively too thick at start up.

    40 wt:
    Penn regular Multigrade 10W-40
    Valvoline Durablend 10W-40*

    30 wt:
    Penn regular Multigrade 5W-30*
    Valvoline Durablend 5W-30

    20 wt:
    Penn regular Multigrade 5W-20*
    Valvoline Durablend 5W-20

    I personally use Mobil 1, 0W-20 in the 575 Maranello and for the first oil change I drained the Murcielago’s 5W-40 Agip and replaced it with 0W-30 Mobil 1. The engine became much quieter. A valve tappet noise disappeared. I may try the 0W-20 next. For all my other cars I use the regular Pennzoil Multigrade 5W-20.

    aehaas
     
  27. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305
    an interesting debate here and one which i tried to put forward on an earler posting on this subject.

    I think there is a huge difference between statistics in a lab and reality. I think most enlightened individuals know about basis pressure requirements

    Ferrarifixer is a case in point- he is working with these cars every day and has commented on the results of using these ultra low visc oils (o---_) and actually SEES what happens with the engines when using these products

    I have two cases to support ferrari fixers view.

    Firstly when i rang castrol who have an excellent technical dept in the UK they said under no circumstances woiuld they suggest using the 0 rated oil for the 355 engine and the oil suggested was 10/60. They were concerned about oil draindown on the 0 rated product. The sum up from the technical department was- its your engine, if it was ours we would NOT use a 0 rated product. They indicated that these oils were developed primarily for fuel economy as the motor manufacturers were demanding these types of oils.

    Secondly, I have an associate with a business that prepares engines for rally cars ( these engines costs as much as Ferrari with higher outputs) and he states that when he has used the ultra low weight oils (0---) it has resulted in significant cam lobe wear on the spectrum of engines he has used it on- so he reverts to castrol 10/60 or similar every time.

    If an individual wishes to try out a theory thats fine but there are always counter arguments and maybe the people who work on these cars day after day know perhaps a little bit more about the REALITIES of the oil debate
     
  28. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    Franklin E. Parker
    I would NEVER use a 0 rated oil unless I lived in the artic or some other frigid place. For Georgia, I will continue to use 15w50 in my Boxer and 10w60 in my M5. I figure Ferrari and BMW know best on what oils are best for engines they design and manufactor. I too have heard and read that all the new 0 rated oils are for fuel economy more than anything else although they would help some on cold start-up. I will be interested to hear as to how AEHaas' engines hold out over the long haul using 0 rated oils. Please post that info after you have driven one of your cars 15k miles or so with that water-like 0 rated oil.
     

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