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Which to buy: 365 or 512 B. Boxer

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by jselevan, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3
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    Friend is in the market, and came upon a low-mileage 1974 365 BB (Yellow).

    Question: Given your choice, would you prefer a 365 or 512 version? Let's make it less complicated by leaving the injected cars out for the moment, unless one feels that the injected variety adds significantly to driveability and, perhaps most important, collectability.

    Which will go up in value more: 365 or 512? Carb (512) or injected (512)?

    I do not need input on how nice Boxers are. Just discussion weighing the advantages of 365 versus 512, if any.

    Thanks for your help.

    Jim S.
     
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  3. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
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    While I can't comment on the 365 vs carb BB.........I believe the 365 has 3 tail lights per side vs two for the BB. I prefer the two.

    Having had a 246 GT, and a Daytona, I LOVE the sound of the carbs........however, they were very tempermental, due to the carbs. When I was looking for a Boxer, 2 years ago, I thought I wanted the carb version. However, my F dealer........who knows me very well, since I bought other Fs from him, recommended I buy a BBi. This was based on the fact that I was putting 10K miles on my F during the summer. He felt that a carb version would be too much tuning......I did want a car that I could just get in and go. He even had a BB there for sale, at the time. They then got in an 83 BBi, on consignment, which I ended up buying.

    I will be addressing the sound of my car, by making my own exhaust for it, this summer.

    So, one of the things your friend should ask is, how much driving does he intend to do; is he mechanically inclined (to play with the carbs); and which does he aesthetically like the most.

    Like any model, they seem to get better with the later ones.

    As far as investment: I would guess the carb version........only because they are more raw, and fewer in number. But the injected version would not be that far behind, since it is more user friendly.

    The bottom line, I think, would be what he likes, and his driving habits.

    HTH
     
  4. RacerX_GTO

    RacerX_GTO F1 World Champ
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    I see the advantage in a 512BBi

    If I were presented with a chance to acquire a Boxer, I'd take the 512. But I'm not entirely a Ferrari purist(is that a bad thing?) I'd add some upgrades including turbochargers making my Boxer... a special Boxer that not many would have access. As for the value.. you be the judge, make me a hypothetical offer.

    The Boxer market has bottomed out allowing room for good collectability value.

    - Gabe
     
  5. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    I've discussed w/ friends many times and the consensus is......buy the 512bbi first, then 512 bb and lastly the 365. The 365 had MANY mechanical problems complicated by parts scarcity and very high prices.
     
  6. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    ps- is the yellow 365 in Canada?
     
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  8. Edward 96GTS

    Edward 96GTS F1 Rookie
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    pps- Jim what did you think of the black 512 Boxer that was at CC 2-3 weeks ago. It was owned by a gray haired gentleman?
     
  9. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

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    Well the only thing I could say for now ,the 365 GT4 BB is more powerful and lighter than the 512 BB.
    Note:the 365 is more rare with 387 ever built compared to the 512 BB with 929 cars made.
     
  10. jselevan

    jselevan Formula 3
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    Edward - Malcolm Schneer (a neighbor) owns the Black 512 BB. It is gorgeous. Carbureted. And very well done. He recently had the engine-out major and did a great deal of detailing at the time. The Boxer in all black is simply stunning. He bought it for a song, but it is not a California B.A.R. car. Registered in Oregon.

    Thanks everyone for the input. I will pass it on.

    Jim S.
     
  11. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    The horsepower issue i disproved many years ago when i back to back dyno'd a 365 and 512 boxer. They have the same HP with the 512 having a HEAP more midrange power. The 365 has a weaker transaxle and a cable clutch and is not as planted at high speed. I'd go for the 512BB carby...sounds sensational, and I had to tune if VERY rarely and used it a lot. The carbs have to be in good condition to stay in tune, though. If they have any worn bits, they tend to go out of tune regularly.
     
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  13. SMS

    SMS F1 Veteran

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    I understand from Dick Merrit that a Canada Boxer can no longer be brought into th USA. This rules out the yellow one that I think you are talking about unless it was never titled there.
     
  14. whart

    whart F1 Veteran
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    The 365 is far funkier and is probably the only "collectible" boxer. Having said that, i don't know what parts availability is for the car. There was a very early one that used to show up at concours events near Phila. It was yellow, and virtually all rebuilt.
     
  15. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The 365 is lighter i think..And it looks much better
     
  16. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Forza's buyers guide (#9) states, that the 365 has more of the raw driving pleasure whereas the 512 and the BBi are more refined as every day drivers.

    Kinda depends on where you live, but I would think given the choice I'd go for the BBi because of the air conditioning. These cars are hot to begin with (cooler in front, pipes going through the center of the cabin and large front window), so I'd take any help I could get and the A/C is presumably better in the BBi. Heck, I have seen a restored 512 and it even had an aftermarket A/C as the stock one still didn't quite cut it.
     
  17. Steve B

    Steve B Formula Junior

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    Speaking as a current owner of a 365BB and a past owner of a 512BBi, here are my thoughts:

    Collectability - Probably the 365 since it was the first of its kind

    Driving feel/character - It depends upon the degree to which you love the feel and sound of carbed cars. I love the carbed experience, but others may differ. The 365 definitely has a raw, unrefined feel to it compared to the 512BBi. The 365 also has a slightly peakier power curve.

    Performance - Essentially the same in raw numbers, although the 512s have more mid-range power and the 365 has high-revving power. The 512s also have better behaved handling with their wider rear ends and wheels and front spoiler.

    Maintenance - Higher with the carbed versions
     
  18. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Steve, welcome to the board!

    First hand experience is hard to top. Great!

    Just a remark on collectability: Forza shows 387 cars of the 365 built vs 929 of the 512 and 1,007 of the 512BBi. That would speak for better prices on the 365 side. Also Forza states most 365 went to Japan, which seems to make it extra rare in the US.
     
  19. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

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  20. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    While Sheenan generally knows his Ferraris, some of the info in his article is incorrect. It is my understanding that the BB512i has the lower gearing making for the best acceleration of the three Boxers, not the 365. One of the complaints of the 365 and BB512 was that while they had great top ends, they were a little slow off the line. Ferrari remedied that with the BB512i with lower overall gearing along with the fuel injection. I do agree that the 365 will likely appreciate more in the future due to its rarity. But, since I drive my Ferraris, I still prefer the BB512i.
     
  21. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

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    Frank, if I remember the FML article that had you car in it, didn't it show the injected car down on HP. The 365BB and BB512 showed something like 340HP and the BBi showed 320HP?

    I thought the 365BB had the lowest gearing but this is from memory. I don't have access to my information here at work.

    Drew
     
  22. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

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    As I recall the 365GT4/BB had 380hp whereas both the BB512 and BB512i had 360hp.
     
  23. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

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    Exactly,

    But Aircon says they both have to same?
     
  24. Steve B

    Steve B Formula Junior

    Dec 23, 2003
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    Now we are venturing on to one of the most confusing areas: Boxer horsepower figures. Here are the facts as I know them along with the source:

    365BB -Owner's manual = 344 SAE net, Factory literature at time of product launch = 380 DIN, Other figures seen in articles = 360 DIN

    512BB - Owner's manual (1976) = 360 DIN

    512BBi - I seem to remember 340 but was it SAE net or DIN?

    I believe that 360 DIN converts to approximately 344 SAE net. Maybe someone out there can verify this.

    As to gearing, the 365BB has a lower rear-end ratio (3.44) as compared to the 512BB abd 512BBi (3.21).
     
  25. Steve B

    Steve B Formula Junior

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    Oh, I forgot to mention, Mel Nichols in his book "Berlinetta Boxer" states that the 380 hp figure used by the Factory for the 365BB product launch was the horsepower achieved by the pre-production prototype. After development, he claims the engineers told him that the production engine was slightly de-tuned and rated at 360DIN.
     
  26. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Forza has several comments about the varying Boxer hp and performance figures. It seems that there were the prototype figures, then the official ones and then what the cars actually delivered, which was lower.

    For the 365 Forza states 360 and for both 512 the number is 340 hp.
     
  27. Aircon

    Aircon Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    I tested the 365 and a carby 512. They were the same peak. I never tried an injected car, but that car came out in the era of anti pollution really knocking ferraris around, power wise. Try a 308GTSi!!!
     
  28. Drew Altemara

    Drew Altemara Formula 3

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    Yea, I have the Mel Nichols book, the Forza Boxer Guide, some sales brochures and some FML articles and its hard to get a direct comparison.

    I guess the dyno is the real test which you did. I have always felt the 365 had a little more power and had lower gearing than the carbed 512 but maybe not at least on the HP part. I still think the injected cars may be a little down on horsepower but again maybe not; maybe because the carbed cars sound so much more racous. In the 80's fuel injection on production cars was used to meet clean air requirements but I don't think there was as much performance debit as with the 308 series.

    I think the Sheehan article is spot on. He has a lot of experience on the subject and doesn't have a dog in the race.
     

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