Who is at fault? | FerrariChat

Who is at fault?

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by fatbillybob, Nov 22, 2009.

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  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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  2. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    Appears to be two incidents in these videos and it would be nice to see footage other than incar. The black Corvette put himself in a difficult position (middle of the 3 wide sandwich, 4 wide until the camera car back out), but did not seem to cause the incident between the yellow Corvette and the car in front of the camera car. Incident 1 (the worst one) It seems that the car in front of the camera car #50 got in too deep, locked up and got on the grass on the inside and took out the yellow vette #42.

    Incident 2 is more difficult to tell from the footage. It appears that the Black vette may have touched the black prototype and nudged him into a spin, but this footage does show what happened. If there was no contact between those two cars and the proto spun on his own and the black vette spun in avoidance, than the only car in front of the camera car #50 should be penalized for assaulting the yellow vette.

    Other angles would be needed to be sure of what happened.
     
  3. dusk

    dusk Formula Junior

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    + 1 ditto.
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Lots to me like the inside car caught some dirt with his left wheel and lost control. I don't have enough experience to say whether this justifies a penalty.

    On the other hand, given the amount of body damage, I'd say this is a good example of why you don't want to race a Ferrari in mixed company. Imagine the bill if the Vette had been a Challenge car.

    Dale
     
  5. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

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    #5 cwwhk, Nov 23, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
    I'd say these were two separate incidents occurring next to each other. And both cars were trying to win the race at the first corner.

    On first video it shows the Radical went in a bit too hot given the traffic. With the black Vette to its right closing the door, it locked up before the apex, got 2 wheels on the grass, then swung back on track and appears to have narrowly missed the black Vette before smashing into the yellow Vette. Black Vette gave the Radical half car width at apex, so this video is inconclusive if penalty is warranted on the Vette. The Radical had some chance of making the corner if its driver did not lock up, so that appears to be a driver error.

    On second video, you can clearly see the black Vette also went into T1 too hot given the traffic condition. At the 22" mark of the video, the black Vette was still braking after the apex to try and avoid hitting the other Radical to it's right front. Black Vette then locked up, spun, and hit the other Radical. Combining the second video with the first video, there is good argument for giving the black Vette penalty for causing avoidable accident.

    Here is another point to consider. Black Vette appears to have far superior acceleration, yet it qualified further back on the grid. Perhaps it's some indication of driver skill.
     
  6. fluque

    fluque Formula 3

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    Although both drivers involved did not strike me as very talented, maybe the race organizers are at fault here.

    There appears to be a significant difference in power and cornering/braking capabilities between the cars. The vette came blasting in the straight and the open top car (Radical?) dove in hoping there would be room through the apex.
     
  7. b-mak

    b-mak F1 Veteran

    +1

    Two separate incidents. CorvetteA takes out what looks to be a Riley Track Day Car. Radical takes out Corvette B. Both incidents are a result the respective drivers running out of talent.

    Don't know what rules they're racing under, so any penalty is TBD.
     
  8. Ney

    Ney F1 Veteran
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    #8 Ney, Nov 23, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
    I agree. While we have focused attention on who on the track might be at fault, a concern as to the orginization of this event allowing a wide group of cars on the track at the same time. I see the Radical, A mini, A Ferrari, two corvettes, etc. This means wide variation in HP, tire type, weight and visability. Some organizations run open vs closed wheel, but Sports Racing cars should generally run with open wheel cars rather than the larger road going closed wheel cars. Seems not to be the best way to run a track day.
     
  9. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3
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    #9 gatorgreg, Nov 23, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
    I heard about this. It's the PBOC race at Barber. It's already been decided. The guy driving the Corvette is out. He blows the first corner and causes the accidents.
     
  10. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    #10 WCH, Nov 23, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
    Idiotic combination of cars in a single race group, IMO.

    Black Vette, either because it gets a great start or because of its torque, picks up a lot of ground and dives boldly into the turn one fray. As he moves up, he spooks the sports racer to his left, who can't decide whether to maintain position or back off. I'll bet the sports racer driver insists he was pushed off track by the Vette. Vette probably doomed in turn one anyway, but the sports racer loses control trying to avoid the Vette and spins. Watching the .wmv video, you can actually see the moment when the sports racer driver freaks out. The driver of the yellow car (first video), on the other hand, feathers, waits it out, and lives to fight another day.

    Really, really bad idea to put light sports racers in with the big bore cars, surprised the track allowed it and not sure I'd race my sports racer in such a run group. That said, the drivers, not the track or the organizers, take whatever blame can be handed out.
     
  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    OK....now we have possible fault. What can be learned from this?
     
  12. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3

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    May be one or all of the following?

    1. You can not win a race on the first lap.

    2. Don't over estimate your ability to out brake everybody else.

    3. Cold tires don't have much traction.

    4. You are not Schumacher.

    5. Others around you are not Schumacher.

    I have done enough stupid things in the past to truly appreciate all of the above. I just did the Macau GP street race in a 430. I drove very conservatively and survived unscathed.

    Here's the YouTube link to my in car video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzsoDpXkuSQ

    I could have driven much more aggressively and maybe finished one or two places further up the ladder, but with blind corners everywhere and top speeds in excess of 260 kph that's probably not a wise thing to do.
     
  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree with you. I'll add a few

    1) this is non-contact club racing and there is no prize money

    2) while you may have rights to a line it is courteous, safe and proper to always leave racing room.

    3) if you are going to take risk make sure you account for an escape plan
     
  14. mousecatcher

    mousecatcher Formula 3

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    sounds like the right decision to me. while it is the overtaking driver's responsibility to make a safe pass (and in this case the overtaking driver is the radical on the inside, as the pass in question is not the pass by the vette on the straight but rather the pass on the brakes into the corner), in turn 1 it is everyone's responsibility to leave racing room -- even if you technically have the corner if you know the guy is there you have to leave him room.

    In this case the vette did not even technically have the corner -- the radical was definitely in there. The vette pinched him and this caused the radical to touch the dirt. The car to the vette's right was very good IMHO and left plenty of room, however the vette for whatever reason did not use it (probably anxious to not let the radical get in front).

    This doesn't look like 2 incidents to me. The vette directly caused both crashes. From the first video it does look like the radical touched the vette and sent it spinning into that other car, but from the other video you can see that the vette spun on its own.
     
  15. mousecatcher

    mousecatcher Formula 3

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    if you don't know the guy next to you, watch out.
     
  16. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Right on the money.

    Putting my "run people the way they run me" hat on, I'd have pushed back on the 'Vette and made sure I was the one that got through.
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I agree. It looks like the radical was caught off guard by the blk vette and decided to fight him for the corner but ran out of balls. The radical can drive in the dirt but can't brake in the dirt. IMO the blk vette owned the corner and the radical did not like that and tried to beat him to the apex then wussed out being underweight by 2000lbs. The blk vette should have given race room but the speed disparity is an issue and right of way is not assertained. So I think if the radical would have used the vette as his brakes instead of being nice and trying to brake in the dirt the radical would have spun the vette with an unknown result and the radical might have been able to keep going after doing the pitt maneuver on the vette and have minor RF fender damage. ProCoach is that what you mean? That is what I'm thinkin if I'm the radical. personally I would not have tried to steal that apex from the vette but once committed it becomes an act of self preservation and "you run me I run you." What the radical driver did was just loose control and "hope". That is not an escape plan.
     
  18. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Yep. The proactive party can inflict damage all out of proportion to their mass, especially if the other, heavier car is off-balance (braking AND cornering).

    BTDT, got away with it but could not have hesitated or I would have been toast.
     
  19. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3
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    It also didn't help that the black Vette took out both event organizers in the yellow corvette and the Riley. When he hit the Riley I knew he was thrown out of PBOC.
    Also the yellow corvette is Bob Turnage.

    This is club racing. It's not for money. No sponsors here. Nobody is going to win on the first corner.
     
  20. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Hah! Bob's one tough customer himself and the Riley... Well, the Riley is EXPENSIVE! :)
     
  21. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    "Nobody is going to win on the first corner."


    That, and "to finish first, first you must finish," are the two most widely ignored truisms in racing - at all levels.
     
  22. mousecatcher

    mousecatcher Formula 3

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    I have to agree, this is the first problem. Even in 13/13 racing grouping cars like this is just asking for problems.

    Maybe ran out of balls is a little harsh. Self preservation, especially against a heavier car, isn't a bad thing. The radical should have had that corner but it was the vette (IMHO) that was too aggressive.
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    You could be right. I think the radical misjudged his ability to beat the blk vette to the apex. The blk vette was way faster and had the rights to that apex (but should leave racing room if close) and was already past the radical. Therefore the 1st radical mistake was not making a safe pass "back" which he attempts to and fails. 2nd mistake was to not be committed. 3rd mistake was to brake not enough and try to brake in the dirt instead of just hitting the vette in the bumper (less damage would have occurred...see the discussion above with procoach.) 4th mistake was not sticking his nose in there in a committed way caused the blk vette to hesitate maybe because the radical could not be seen and this causes the vette to wait too late to brake, wiggle, and if the blk vette clearly could have hit the apex he would not have collected the Riley or if racing room was provided all would have gotten through clean. So while the blk vette was really the problem he was assisted by the radical. I'd give a 13 to both of them. Neither driver used good judgement, courtesy, or demonstrated car control or realized this was an enduro not a sprint race. It is so hard to judge others after we analyze things to death from the comfort of our chairs and time. I could have easily make the same mistakes as a ameteur racer myself. I hope to learn from others so I don't live out my greatest fears on the racetrack. These racers misfortune help the rest of us avoid future issues just like this one. And I appreciate ProCoach's pro comments too. On the surface his comments may appear aggressive but my guess is that if the radical just smacked the vette square in the bumper at the apex it is very possible that everyone would have gotten though with very minor body damage and the other cars may not have even been touched.
     
  24. mousecatcher

    mousecatcher Formula 3

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    i'm with you 100%
     
  25. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    #25 WCH, Nov 27, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2009
    "Therefore the 1st radical mistake was not making a safe pass "back""


    Lots of second guessing by all of us, but ...

    The first mistake may have been made before the green flag waved - look again at the start. Cars seemed too far apart at the start, almost hanging back; not enough for a wave off IMO, just kind of sloppy on the competitors' parts. Also, how wide is the track? I can't see leaving so much of the middle of the track unguarded, not occupying the middle. The car from which the second video was shot, for example, dutifully stays driver's right; I'd be pushing down.

    Having said that (for those who watched the Seinfeld "reunion"), I truly hope no one videos then analyzes my driving.
     

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