Who is at fault?

Appears to be two incidents in these videos and it would be nice to see footage other than incar. The black Corvette put himself in a difficult position (middle of the 3 wide sandwich, 4 wide until the camera car back out), but did not seem to cause the incident between the yellow Corvette and the car in front of the camera car. Incident 1 (the worst one) It seems that the car in front of the camera car #50 got in too deep, locked up and got on the grass on the inside and took out the yellow vette #42.

Incident 2 is more difficult to tell from the footage. It appears that the Black vette may have touched the black prototype and nudged him into a spin, but this footage does show what happened. If there was no contact between those two cars and the proto spun on his own and the black vette spun in avoidance, than the only car in front of the camera car #50 should be penalized for assaulting the yellow vette.

Other angles would be needed to be sure of what happened.

 

+ 1 ditto.

 

Lots to me like the inside car caught some dirt with his left wheel and lost control. I don't have enough experience to say whether this justifies a penalty.

On the other hand, given the amount of body damage, I'd say this is a good example of why you don't want to race a Ferrari in mixed company. Imagine the bill if the Vette had been a Challenge car.

Dale

 

I'd say these were two separate incidents occurring next to each other. And both cars were trying to win the race at the first corner.

On first video it shows the Radical went in a bit too hot given the traffic. With the black Vette to its right closing the door, it locked up before the apex, got 2 wheels on the grass, then swung back on track and appears to have narrowly missed the black Vette before smashing into the yellow Vette. Black Vette gave the Radical half car width at apex, so this video is inconclusive if penalty is warranted on the Vette. The Radical had some chance of making the corner if its driver did not lock up, so that appears to be a driver error.

On second video, you can clearly see the black Vette also went into T1 too hot given the traffic condition. At the 22" mark of the video, the black Vette was still braking after the apex to try and avoid hitting the other Radical to it's right front. Black Vette then locked up, spun, and hit the other Radical. Combining the second video with the first video, there is good argument for giving the black Vette penalty for causing avoidable accident.

Here is another point to consider. Black Vette appears to have far superior acceleration, yet it qualified further back on the grid. Perhaps it's some indication of driver skill.

 

Although both drivers involved did not strike me as very talented, maybe the race organizers are at fault here.

There appears to be a significant difference in power and cornering/braking capabilities between the cars. The vette came blasting in the straight and the open top car (Radical?) dove in hoping there would be room through the apex.

 

+1

Two separate incidents. CorvetteA takes out what looks to be a Riley Track Day Car. Radical takes out Corvette B. Both incidents are a result the respective drivers running out of talent.

Don't know what rules they're racing under, so any penalty is TBD.

 

I agree. While we have focused attention on who on the track might be at fault, a concern as to the orginization of this event allowing a wide group of cars on the track at the same time. I see the Radical, A mini, A Ferrari, two corvettes, etc. This means wide variation in HP, tire type, weight and visability. Some organizations run open vs closed wheel, but Sports Racing cars should generally run with open wheel cars rather than the larger road going closed wheel cars. Seems not to be the best way to run a track day.

 

I heard about this. It's the PBOC race at Barber. It's already been decided. The guy driving the Corvette is out. He blows the first corner and causes the accidents.

 

Idiotic combination of cars in a single race group, IMO.

Black Vette, either because it gets a great start or because of its torque, picks up a lot of ground and dives boldly into the turn one fray. As he moves up, he spooks the sports racer to his left, who can't decide whether to maintain position or back off. I'll bet the sports racer driver insists he was pushed off track by the Vette. Vette probably doomed in turn one anyway, but the sports racer loses control trying to avoid the Vette and spins. Watching the .wmv video, you can actually see the moment when the sports racer driver freaks out. The driver of the yellow car (first video), on the other hand, feathers, waits it out, and lives to fight another day.

Really, really bad idea to put light sports racers in with the big bore cars, surprised the track allowed it and not sure I'd race my sports racer in such a run group. That said, the drivers, not the track or the organizers, take whatever blame can be handed out.

 

May be one or all of the following?

1. You can not win a race on the first lap.

2. Don't over estimate your ability to out brake everybody else.

3. Cold tires don't have much traction.

4. You are not Schumacher.

5. Others around you are not Schumacher.

I have done enough stupid things in the past to truly appreciate all of the above. I just did the Macau GP street race in a 430. I drove very conservatively and survived unscathed.

Here's the YouTube link to my in car video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzsoDpXkuSQ

I could have driven much more aggressively and maybe finished one or two places further up the ladder, but with blind corners everywhere and top speeds in excess of 260 kph that's probably not a wise thing to do.

 

sounds like the right decision to me. while it is the overtaking driver's responsibility to make a safe pass (and in this case the overtaking driver is the radical on the inside, as the pass in question is not the pass by the vette on the straight but rather the pass on the brakes into the corner), in turn 1 it is everyone's responsibility to leave racing room -- even if you technically have the corner if you know the guy is there you have to leave him room.

In this case the vette did not even technically have the corner -- the radical was definitely in there. The vette pinched him and this caused the radical to touch the dirt. The car to the vette's right was very good IMHO and left plenty of room, however the vette for whatever reason did not use it (probably anxious to not let the radical get in front).

This doesn't look like 2 incidents to me. The vette directly caused both crashes. From the first video it does look like the radical touched the vette and sent it spinning into that other car, but from the other video you can see that the vette spun on its own.

 

if you don't know the guy next to you, watch out.

 

Right on the money.

Putting my "run people the way they run me" hat on, I'd have pushed back on the 'Vette and made sure I was the one that got through.

 

Yep. The proactive party can inflict damage all out of proportion to their mass, especially if the other, heavier car is off-balance (braking AND cornering).

BTDT, got away with it but could not have hesitated or I would have been toast.

 

It also didn't help that the black Vette took out both event organizers in the yellow corvette and the Riley. When he hit the Riley I knew he was thrown out of PBOC.
Also the yellow corvette is Bob Turnage.

This is club racing. It's not for money. No sponsors here. Nobody is going to win on the first corner.

 

Hah! Bob's one tough customer himself and the Riley... Well, the Riley is EXPENSIVE!

 

"Nobody is going to win on the first corner."


That, and "to finish first, first you must finish," are the two most widely ignored truisms in racing - at all levels.

 

I have to agree, this is the first problem. Even in 13/13 racing grouping cars like this is just asking for problems.

Maybe ran out of balls is a little harsh. Self preservation, especially against a heavier car, isn't a bad thing. The radical should have had that corner but it was the vette (IMHO) that was too aggressive.

 

i'm with you 100%

 

"Therefore the 1st radical mistake was not making a safe pass "back""


Lots of second guessing by all of us, but ...

The first mistake may have been made before the green flag waved - look again at the start. Cars seemed too far apart at the start, almost hanging back; not enough for a wave off IMO, just kind of sloppy on the competitors' parts. Also, how wide is the track? I can't see leaving so much of the middle of the track unguarded, not occupying the middle. The car from which the second video was shot, for example, dutifully stays driver's right; I'd be pushing down.

Having said that (for those who watched the Seinfeld "reunion"), I truly hope no one videos then analyzes my driving.