Who is.............. | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Who is..............

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by kizdan, Jan 6, 2004.

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  1. Kharma Police

    Kharma Police Rookie

    Dec 4, 2003
    14
    Forest Hill, MD
    Full Name:
    Steve
    1. Senna - had it all, ability, charisma and the record
    2. Alesi - how can someone have that many podium finishes with only one victory? Plus how many times did his Benetton blow up while in first place?
    3. Schumacher - it's hard not to consider him the best ever based upon his record, but part of that is down to the strength and the consistency of the Ferrari team built around him.
    4. Allesandro Nannini - it was a big disappointment when his F1 career was cut short

    As for the "old school" greats I never saw them race and therefore won't include them. Additionally, as the cars and the sport changes it's hard to compare today's drivers with those of yesteryear. I wonder if any of the past greats could have cut it in F1 today.
     
  2. flyingboa

    flyingboa Formula 3

    Nov 27, 2003
    1,564
    Italy/India
    Full Name:
    Eugenio
    Nuvolari and Gilles from the past.
    Shumi today.
    Just one thing to be added: Enzo Ferrari indicated the first two as his favourite ones, recognizing in Gilles Tazio's heir...

    Ciao

    Eugenio
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    :):), I have a lot of respect for Lauda. He did what Schumacher is doing to Ferrari now back in the 70's and motivated the team. He also came back and was instantly fast in the McLaren MP4's.

    I do not have any trouble with drivers that do all that is required to win. Stewart, Prost and Lauda all drove just fast enough to win, but when they had to they could all drive right on the very ragged edge and be extremely fast.

    For all those Prost knockers, remember Suzuka when Senna and Prost came together, remember how blindingly fast they both were compared to the rest of the field. Remember how Prost BEAT Senna that season to the World Championship in EXACTLY the same car ... thus in my opinion Prost was better at scoring points in the same car than Senna, hence why I rate him higher.

    Also if you redo the WC points system as some mag did Prost would have 5 WC's and Senna ONLY 1.

    As for MS being ahead of Senna. Well MS has 6 WCs versus 2 ... and has (I think) better or atleast the same ability to race well in a cr@p car. While Senna raced with better opposition, is the opposition so pitiful now because MS is just too good?

    If I included charisma in my list then Senna would be much higher :)

    Pete
    ps: If we all agreed with each other then this forum or post would be boring ... so it is great to have a little fun :):)

    Also I forgot Gilles Villenueve ... oops!
     
  4. beast

    beast F1 World Champ

    May 31, 2003
    11,479
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    I think for the most gutsy driver would go to Nigel Mansell in my book.

    When i saw him at Phx Intl. Raceway as a rookie just tearing up the oval and driving ragged into the corners i was impressed. I felt any other driver would have just punched a hole in the wall (Nigel did later that day).

    Favorite of all today would have to be MS

    Retired driver Senna
     
  5. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

    Oct 18, 2003
    2,748
    Surrey, England
    Full Name:
    Matthew
    Gilles Villeneuve without a doubt
     
  6. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    48,581
    @ the wheel
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    Andreas
    Pete, what points system did the mags use? I'm actually working on a huge Excel sheet where I'm trying to use one system across the board to get some kind of comparison going (I always hate it when they say e.g. Schumacher has the most points of them all. It is so meaningless as we have now 10 points per victory. Kinda like inflation. Of course MS would have the most points in any system, but going for a numeric value is missing the bigger picture).

    Senna and Charisma? Well he is dead. That helps. But seriously, he was a cool guy, but charisma? People say MS is like a robot (and I do hate his press conferences), but IMHO he shows emotions every time he gets on that podium. Senna and Prost were a lot more down to biz, even boring.

    And yes, the fun lies in disagreeing with each other and bringing out the arguments.

    PS: I have a lot of respect for Lauda myself. It is just Fuji I can't get over with.
     
  7. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,505
    I am happy to say that I was there when Alesi won his only race in Montreal. It was fantastic!

    I will never forget Alesi in the Tyrell, passing Senna twice in one lap. I think it was in Pheonix????
     
  8. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,505
    They are just boring to watch!

    This article that some magazine did is completely irellevant. The points system of the day is whatever it was.

    Senna has 3, not 2. I believe if Senna were to have lived, he would have been the one to break Fangio's record, not Schumi (Schumi would still have multiple Championships, but not as many as Senna). How about Senna's pole position record? People tend to overlook that, but it is an incredible record.

    Certainly not a man to be forgotten! 8-D

    I love discussing F1, and hearing other peoples' views, that what makes this board so entertaining! On with the '04 season already!
     
  9. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

    Mar 16, 2002
    13,337
    Ex-Urbia
    Full Name:
    Jack
    Currently, I'd say Mark Webber is the guy I find myself pulling for. He seems pretty grounded, and unlike so many before him, doesn't seem to be impressed by himself.
     
  10. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    48,581
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    Andreas
    Yes and no about the points system. Yes because the driver adjusted their strategy to the points system (e.g. somebody does no longer take huge risks once knowing the title is secured). No because any points system is arbitrary and things could look very different. E.g. the 79 season when Jones had no chance of winning the title because he scored all his successes in the second half. Unfair IMHO.

    Of course purely speculative, but I don't think Senna would have beaten Schumacher in 94 had he lived. He struggled mightily to his death and was outclassed several times by Michael. Which is why I think we do know the answer who was better. At least in 94. Maybe Senna was already past his zenith. Fact is, he was in a superior car and made one blunder after another.

    I love these discussions btw. My nephew is an ardent Senna fan so you can imagine this isn't the first we discussed this issue.
    :)
     
  11. Kalidengas

    Kalidengas Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    599
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Full Name:
    J.Santiago
    PROST,"the teacher".
     
  12. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Actually his nickname was "The professor". He learned his driving from Lauda, "The computer".
     
  13. Maximo_Tifoso

    Maximo_Tifoso Karting

    Jan 8, 2004
    223
    Houston TX
    "Of course purely speculative, but I don't think Senna would have beaten Schumacher in 94 had he lived. He struggled mightily to his death and was outclassed several times by Michael. Which is why I think we do know the answer who was better. At least in 94. Maybe Senna was already past his zenith. Fact is, he was in a superior car and made one blunder after another."

    I tend to agree with this speculation...Senna was great, but you could see that Michael was going to be the dominate force in F1. If Senna had not died, Michael still would have won the 94 and 95 titles.
     
  14. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Actually I do not remember but it was in some mag (maybe Motorsport) where they were trying to compare all ages ... I guess it is not ideal debating not to remember where I got that from :):)

    Maybe charisma is the wrong word, but he definitely captivated people in some magical way. People have forgotten all the stupid sides of Senna (as one does in respect for the dead) and he is the one that taught MS that winning at all costs is the way to play the game. Senna was the driver without any sportsmanship, and the way he drove Prosts Ferrari off the track at Suzuka was disgusting, and there are plenty of other cases of 'I am Senna, I can do what I like BS'. Even the way he punched Irvine for having the audacity to race him in Irvines first race was disgusting. He was fantastic to watch as a racing driver on some days, but I cannot rate him right up there because he used his car as a weapon ... plus all the political BS was a little tiring, but ofcourse the media loved it. His pole position record is what he will be remembered for and deserves to be remembered for ... and yes Prost could not always compete but like MS, I believe Prost was working more on race car setup and had the maturity to know that race points are more important (one reason why they should bring back the single point for pole ... maybe liven it up a bit :))

    Yes I can understand that. Maybe (and I cannot remember) Lauda was close to retiring ... and thus the passion was dimming?. I read his biography and he is the most interesting person and took huge financial risks to get to F1. Like Mansell unbelievable self belief.

    Pete
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    48,581
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    Andreas
    Negative. No it was after his Nuerburgring crash in which he almost died and he basicallywas scared to death to continue driving in the rain of Fuji. He was actually hoping the Mc Laren would either break down or Hunt make a mistake. Neither happened and Hunt won. Had Lauda continued, he would have won the WC.

    Enzo gave him a beating for this (deserved I think), they had a fallout and Lauda only drove the next year for Ferrari, however winning the WC again proving his point.


    If I had the chance to ask him I would like to know whether he ever regretted Fuji. He is probably to stubborn to admit, but I think deep down he feels sorry in hindsight.

    People called Prost a wussy for retiring in the rain (e.g. Sao Paulo), but Lauda with the WC at stake made the biggest blunder. Too bad.
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    Well I can understand (sympathise) after that accident that he had lost his bottle a bit. I can also understand Enzo getting excited about loosing a WC because of it also ... :)

    Pete
     
  17. aventino

    aventino Formula Junior

    Jun 16, 2003
    768
    Hong Kong
    Full Name:
    David L
    Can't sit on the sidelines any longer. Mansell at Nr 10 Kizdan, is this some kind of joke? A muppet could have taken out the crown, the Williams was so superior that year. And if half of his interviews were to be believed (he had a love/hate relationship with the press like there was a switch in the back of his head) the car was a complete pig and only his extrodinary talent allowed Williams any success. Yeah right. At least Hill was happy to admit he was a good driver in an excellent car that secured his championship.
    I think any of the drivers from the late '60's and early '70's that did GPs and Endurance racing week about for sod all money when the speed/crash protection factor was horrendous deserve a mention.
    Just have a look at Mr G's P4 or Lola stripped down for a reminder. And bearing in mind that the Gulf 917's were about 10 seconds a lap quicker than the F1 cars at Spa in '71.......
    Agree with most of what you're saying folks but

    Pedro Rodriguez gets my vote.
     
  18. Kalidengas

    Kalidengas Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    599
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Full Name:
    J.Santiago
    You are right, is "The professor".
     
  19. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,505
    Who ever said my pick of Mansell at #10 is based on his World Championship??? My pick is based on his driving skill and his absolute fearlessness. I believe he should have won more than 1 title. He would go head to head against anyone, and give it his absolute all. He had the pleasure of racing against Senna, Prost, and Piquet (10 World Championships combined), and winning regularly. Take Schumey as an example; for 2004, he will be racing against a field that has NO World Championships collectively!

    How about the fact that after he left F1 to go to CART, not only did he win that championship his very first year, but he also won his very first oval race that he ever competed in. That, to me, is one of the most impressive accomplishments I have ever known.

    Pedro Rodriguez? And you are asking me if my pick is a joke?
     
  20. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    48,581
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    Andreas
    For many years I was an ardent supporter of Mansell. He was talented and had a big heart and lots of bad luck. He deserves to be named here. True his WC was more of an afterthought in that totally superior car. But he'd deserved the crown several years before that in real battles. Remember the exploding rear tyre in Adelaide (?) that cost him the title...

    I also loved the fact that he went straight to the US to dominate CART as a rookie and become the only (?) person to have have the F1 crown and the CART title at the same time (at least for a couple months of overlap).

    Like so many, he didn't know when to stop. His overweight comeback in the Mc Laren was embarassing. Just as was Jones' and Piquet in an Indycar or Hill in an Arrows. I hope we'll be spared to see JV in a Jordan.

    Now tell me, who is Rodriguez? Never heard of the guy. Just asking a question.
     
  21. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Veteran

    Dec 31, 2003
    5,505
    If you have to ask.....that just proves my point. How can anyone place him in the top 10?
     
  22. darth550

    darth550 Six Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jul 14, 2003
    60,788
    In front of you
    Full Name:
    BCHC
    Pierre-Luigi Martini......

    It's all in the name!

    DL
     
  23. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Oct 3, 2002
    48,581
    @ the wheel
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    Andreas
    I didn't want to beat up on Aventino. I really have never heard of a Rodriguez. If he ever was in F1, he didn't do well. And if he wasn't in F1, well then...ahem, I just don't care. Sorry.
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Follow this link: http://www.kes.hants.sch.uk/cgi-bin/indiv.pl?name=Pedro+Rodriguez

    Drove for BRM (hence why he did not do well :)) ... very brave driver that was probably too brave to be a consistent winner. His brother was good too.

    These guys drove when motorracing was dangerous (1960's), not the poofy sport it is now :)

    He was brilliant in the sportscars ... again F1 drivers actually demonstrated their talents in other cars too in those days, now they are not allowed to, thus we the spectator miss out!

    Again if we are going to include Gilles Villenueve and others like Moss, etc. the somebody can include Pedro, same sort of driver as Gilles and died the same way ...

    Pete
     
  25. aventino

    aventino Formula Junior

    Jun 16, 2003
    768
    Hong Kong
    Full Name:
    David L
    Kizdan if we are going to include Mansell then we may as well include Irishman Derek Daly the part time Williams #2 driver who often outperformed him at the time. In the T car.

    Or any of the rest of Mansell's teammates in the Lotus or Williams who outperformed him. But it would appear this discussion is not just about ability and possibly unfufilled potential. Likewise the fact that you have not heard of either of the Mexican brothers may simply mean that there are chapters in motorsport that you haven't heard of and not that "you know all/you've never heard of them/therefore they are crap".

    I would also suggest sacking Schumacher yesterday and spending the USD$50 million saved to put 20 drivers (at 2 and a half million each) through at least a year of F3 or F3000 or whatever is considered the preF1 stepping stone. Get out there and find kids racing dirt tracks in Alabama or HQs on Phillip Island or KTMs on ice in Norway, who have everything but the financial support required.

    Just a thought.

    James
     

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