Why a small jet will never beat a turboprop | FerrariChat

Why a small jet will never beat a turboprop

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Juan-Manuel Fantango, Oct 28, 2011.

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  1. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Juan-Manuel Fantango F1 World Champ
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    Jan 18, 2004
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    Juan
    Sad to read today that Piperjet pulled their project until the market gets better, but better this than I suppose than have the project fail. They are great people-having been a major sponsor at FCA annual meet in Savannah this year.

    I was reading Austin Meyers post on the Evolution build when I came across this. According to Austin, this is why a small jet will never beat a turboprop.


    From Austin on this link:



    http://www.x-plane.com/hardware/evo/evo.html

    http://www.x-plane.com/hardware/evo/4_trip_3.html

    BELOW IS A (SLIGHTLY UPDATED AND EDITED) EMAIL I SENT TO AN ENGINEER WHEN I WAS CANCELLING THE CAVALLO PROJECT, AND THE REASONS IT (AND ANY OTHER VERY LIGHT JET) WILL SIMPLY NOT MATCH A TURBOPROP OR LARGER JET FOR PERFORMANCE, AS TEMPTING AN IDEA AS A SMALL JET MAY BE:


    hi man!

    ok i think i am canceling the x-1 project (as it stands, with a single jet), and here is why: the range is just too low, the fuel burn too high, compared to a lancair-4.

    when looking at any reasonable figure of merit, the lancair-4 runs circles around anything i can design.

    observe these scores, with the lancair-4 p, the lancair propjet, and the x-1 with a pw-610 and a second variant with a pw-615:


    X-1 with pw engines:

    pw 610: we go 265 kt at 315 pph=265 kt at 46 gph = 5.8 nmpg. range is 673 nm.
    pw 615: we go 310 kt at 381 pph=310 kt at 56 gph = 5.5 nmpg. range is 573 nm.


    speed in kts * range in nm / fuel in lb = score

    lancair 4-P =286*1350/100=3861
    lancair propjet =325*1216/150=2634
    x-1-610 =265* 673/110=1621
    x-1-615 =310* 573/110=1614

    the lancairs are FASTER than an x-1 with a pw-610... while going TWICE the distance on the same fuel.

    how can i build an airplane that is slower than a lancair, goes half the distance, and would cost twice as much?

    as well, part of my plan was to reduce weight and frontal area by pulling out the insulation and interior ammenities... this would result in a plane that is a carbon-fiber shell with a jet engine on it. sounds FUN. BUT, when i spoke to mr. karkow, he reminded me that the noise in global flyer (before they added insulation) was 105 db... that is a between a snow-mobile and a chain-saw. as well, ANR headsets did NOT reduce the noise at all... the ANR systems only work with lower-freq noise! as well, ICE would form on the inside of the craft (including windshield) throughout the flight. upon landing, the ice would melt and water would be sloshing around the cabin of the airplane. every flight. the carbon-fiber shell, attached to the engine, would shake with the engine, causing every bit of the airplane to act like a speaker.

    so, to pull out all the interior of the airplane would have you flying in a block of ice making more noise than a snowmobile, with ice melting around your feet following every flight. doing this might save 100 pounds in weight, which would buy you about 15 minutes of cruise fuel.

    again, you are in a block of ice making more noise than a snowmobile, ANR headset is ineffective, water is sloshing around your feet after every flight, to give you 15 more minutes of fuel.

    in other words, insulation is light, fuel is heavy... you do not get a better airplane by giving up a LOT of insulation since you get only a LITTLE fuel in return.

    as well, the lancair guys are faster on half the fuel flow, with very warm, quiet cabins.... whisper-quiet with their ANR's.

    for flight exceeding 500 miles, the lancair's are 3 or 4 times faster... since they will not be stopping for fuel like the x-1 pilot would be.

    the lancair costs less.. their engines run $100k, the x-1 engine would run $300k or more.


    the x-1 would be a laughing-stok to any lancair pilot... how could it not be? look at the figures of merit.

    as well, the x-1 is NOT like a thirtieth of a Boeing 737, carrying a thirtieth of the payload (4 people instead of 120) at the same speed and distance.

    the x-1 is NOT as good as the lancair (PROP airplane at the same speed and size and range targets)
    and
    the x-1 is NOT as good as a thirtieth of a boeing 737 (JET airplane scaled up.. a biz-jet is supposed to give airliner speed and altitude in individual-sized servings, providing the same speed and range as an airliner, but smaller).

    now, WHY is this?

    well, it comes down to 4 fundamentals that i can think of... 2 fundamental reasons the x-1 is not as good as a lancair prop, and 2 fundamental reasons the x-1 is not as good as a thirtieth of a boeing 737.


    FUNDAMENTAL REASONS SMALL JET WILL >>>NEVER<<< BE AS GOOD AS A BIG JET:

    1:
    let's start with an airbus a-380.. a huge plane that goes maybe 8,000 miles at mach 0.85 or so.
    it weighs 1.2 million pounds and has length and breadth of 250 ft
    now let's say we want to build a small jet.. a plane that is 1/10th the size.
    this plane will have length and wingspan of 25 ft.

    this light jet plane is
    1/10 as long
    1/10 as tall
    1/10 as wide

    that should give a plane that is one one-thousandth the volume
    that should give a plane that is one one-thousandth the weight
    that should give a plane that has one one-thousandth the thrust (to push one one-thousandth the weight)

    so, we have a plane that is like an airbus a-380, but with one one-thousandth the weight and thrust and fuel-burn, right?

    WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    the frontal area and wetted area of our airplane is ONE ONE-HUNDREDTH THAT OF THE AIRBUS, NOT ONE ONE-THOUSANDTH!!!!!!!!

    scale the airbus down by 10x and you have one one-hundredth the frontal and wetted area, not one-one-thousandth!

    so, your new scaled-down plane has one-one-thousandth the thrust, but one-one-hundredth the (parasite) DRAG!!!!!

    so we have TEN TIMES THE DRAG PER UNIT THRUST!!!!!
    again: scale down an a380 by a factor of 10, and you have ten times the parasite drag per unit thrust, all else being equal!!!!!

    speed goes with square root of drag, so we should expect to fly at a speed fraction of the square root of 10, or about one THIRD the speed.

    if we have identical endurance (one-one-thousandth the thrust, one one-thousandth the fuel, would give the same endurance!) but one third the speed, we will clearly have ne third the range.

    so, if we managed to do everything as well as an airbus a-380 scaled down, we would still only have one THIRD the speed and range!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    this rules makes a very light jet impossible, since very light jets need to have near-airliner performance to perform like jets.

    2:
    it gets worse.
    jets do well because they have a high bypass ratio... teeny little turbines spinning at huge rpm driving giant, slow-turning fans
    these teeny fast turbines give huge compression and efficiency, these high bypass ratio fans give huge propulsive efficiency.. so we just scale it down, right?

    WRONG!

    if the turbine or compressor tolerance is 0.02" for blade-radius on the airbus, and we scale the engine down by 10x in every dimension, our part tolerance is STILL 0.02" since that is the best part we can make... that is now TEN TIMES THE ERROR on an engine that is one-tenth the size. in other words, the smaller engine has ten times the losses due to manufacturing tolerances. this means that you can NOT have a big fan with a small turbine.. the losses due to imperfections in the geometry of the engine are TEN TIMES GREATER, so the turbine can not be one tenth the size in each direction... that turbine is too small to work efficiently! remember, A FEW GRAINS OF SAND GOING INTO THIS ENGINE WOULD BE THE EQUIVALENT OF THROWING BAGS OF GRAVEL INTO THE ENGINE OF THE A-380.

    so a small engine can NOT be as good as a big one, because the manufacturing tolerances become 10x as large, so the turbine must be larger, so the bypass ratio must be lower. (a larger turbine is by definition a lower bypass ratio, if the total air going thru the engine is held constant)





    ok, so, our very light jet that is a scaled down airliner goes 1/3 the speed of an airliner,
    going 1/3 the distance,
    and actually does WORSE than the above because the the bypass ratio is lower because the turbine cannot be that small.
    so now we are down to 250 knots or so.. maybe 300 knots if we put a bigger engine on and sacrifice even more range.

    guess who flies alongside us if we are flying in a jet at 300 mph?

    this brings us to our NEXT 2 fundamentals:


    FUNDAMENTAL REASONS A 300-MPH JET WILL >>>NEVER<<< BE AS GOOD AS A 300-MPH PROP:

    1:
    the thrust we get from air is the momentum-change: amount of air we grab times how much we accelerate it
    the fuel flow we put into the air is the kinetic energy: amount of air we grab times how much we accelerate it SQUARED
    therefore, for any propulsion system to be efficient, it must take a LOT of air and accelerate it a LITTLE.
    thus, all else being equal, the HUGE prop of a lancair is inherently more efficient than the tiny compressor of a mini-jet


    2:
    an internal-combustion recip engine gets the same compression ratio no matter how fast it turns. set the throttle to idle, take-off, cruise, descent, approach, or holding-pattern... it makes no difference: if the compression ratio of the engine is 7:1, you will get that compression ratio at all power settings: 7:1... the compression ratio is realized no matter how fast or slow the engine is turning... the piston still covers the same sapce in the cylinder, regardless of speed.

    the JET engine, though, must turn at 100% rpm to get it's designed compression.. if the jet turns 1% less rpm than redline, compression is lost, and efficiency with it... the compression is caused by the dynamic pressure on the blades... 1% less speed on the blades is 2% less compression across them, with the resulting loss in efficiency. you can only run a jet on-design at 100% rpm... any speed less and the efficiency falls apart... no surprise that going to low power settings still involves huge fuel-flow... a jet engine at low power is losing compression! a jet engine at low power is like a recip engine that is losing compression and needs to have it's pistons replaced!!!!!!!!!!





    so there you have it. 4 fundamental laws of physics that prove that a VLJ can't work:

    -a plane that is 1/10th the size has 1/1000 the weight and thrust, but 1/100 the parasite drag, so will go about 1/3 the speed, all else being equal
    -a plane that is 1/10th the size will have 10 times the manufacturing error in size-ratio, resulting in a larger turbine and therefore lower bypass ratio

    so the small jet cannot go as fast as the a big jet, so we are down to 300 mph, so comparing to props:
    -a plane with a jet takes a smaller bite of air than a plane with a prop, so cannot have the same propulsive efficiency
    -a plane with a jet cannot run at lower power settings for much of the flight, like a prop can, without huge losses, because the compression ratio i only maintained at 100% rpm


    these are 4 FUNDAMENTAL LAWS that keep a VLJ from becoming a reality.


    ok, enough about physics.

    lets talk about emotion.

    vern raburn had a bajillion dollars and the term 'disruptive technology' in his arsenal... show me a pilot that does not love the term 'disruptive technology'.
    he claimed that he could make vljs with this 'disruptive technology'... 2 majors bits of this 'disruptive technology' were friction-stir welding and small jet engines.
    which fundamental, listed above, is overcome by friction stir welding? he attached pieces of metal together in a slightly different way. attaching pieces of metal together in a slightly different way. ok. fine. got it. which fundamental, listed above, does that work around? what on earth does that do to make the airplane faster, or use less fuel?

    the other 'disruptive technology' was a small jet engine. everyone loved that the engine was so SMALL. the engine is so small and light, it MUST be good! well, look at fundamental #1 in section #2 above... the SMALLER the jet engine, the WORSE IT IS!!!!!!!! IT GRABS LESS AIR! the smaller it is, the more the air must be accelerated, so the more the kinetic energy that must be imparted to it, so the more the fuel flow must be.

    so vern's plane was supposed to have disruptive technology to break barriers. the friction stir welding is totally immaterial and irrelevant to flight performance, and the small engine is the exact OPPOSITE of what you need for efficiency... the smaller the engine is, the WORSE it is!


    ten thousand pilots thought that with enough money and engineering and use of the word 'disruptive technology' we could side-step the laws of physics.
    BS!


    the payload, speed, and range of the eclipse-500 and the x-1 cavallo prove that VLJ's just don't work as well as turboprops or larger jets.

    to do what the eclipse is supposed to do, you have to buy a piaggo avanti... fundamental #1 in section #2 above proves it.
    there can be no airplane that is 1/10 the size of an airliner but still gives the same performance... fundamentals #1 and #2 in section #1 above proves it.
    if i want to travel far as fast as i can go in a small plane, then fundamentals #1 and #2 in section #1 above prove that i can only go half the speed of an airliner, and fundamentals #1 and #2 in section 2 above prove that i have to do it in a lancair-4P or lancair Evolution.
     
  2. sigar

    sigar F1 Rookie
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    Very interesting. His conclusions seem logical to me. Would like to hear from some of the other minds on here in the business.
     
  3. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
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    #3 solofast, Oct 29, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2011
    There are a couple of theads on the subject and there isn't any question that turbprops beat the heck out of small jets in terms of payload, range, fuel efficiency and short field performance.

    The downside to the turboprop is that it isn't a quiet, and is a little bit slower. While more efficient at lower altitudes some of the high perfrormance ones could fly high enough to get above most of the weather. while some are limited to lower altitudes and weather could be an issue that some operators don't want to deal with. There's also the issue of where ATC will let you fly. They don't want VLJ's at the airline altitudes because they are slower. If VLJ's get caught at lower altitudes then a turboprop makes much more sense.

    We've discussed the subject at length, here are a few threads that talked in more detail, if you wade thru some of the other posts you will find a pretty interesting discussion on the pros and cons.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198299&page=4

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218685

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268111

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320273

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=318621


    At one point I had compiled a payload/range chart for all of the VLJ's and the turboprops like the Epic pretty much kicked the heck out of the VLJ's. As noted in some of the other post in these threads, there are reasons for going pure jet, but it isn't fuel econonomy or range.
     
  4. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    A couple of points:

    In the light jet / turboprop class, how many jets and turboprops are still in production:

    Jets-- CitationJet series, Premier One, Lear 40, Phenom 100/300, Citation Mustang

    Turboprops-- King Air C90/200/350, PC-12, TBM

    So it's not a clear win for either side.

    Secondly, anyone who has ever ridden in a turboprop and a jet back to back on a trip of any length can tell you which one they prefer-- and it's not the turboprop.

    That said, turboprops are certainly more efficient on shorter trips, and maybe on longer ones as well. But efficiency isn't everything.
     
  5. BlackonBlack

    BlackonBlack Formula Junior

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    #5 BlackonBlack, Oct 30, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2011
    a plane with a jet takes a smaller bite of air than a plane with a prop, so cannot have the same propulsive efficiency

    Don't agree with this; Props move air before the blade is the same air after the blade. The
    air doesn't change, its just accelerated. ( air being 20.9% oxygen, 79% nitrogen, trace of other gasses).

    Jets ,however, because of combustion produces CO2 which is alot heavier than air. Nitrogen
    does not take part in any combustion. (Don't exactly remember the stoichiometric ratio of how much CO2 produced per pound of Jet A
    but it is lot more than the fuel). Coz of the heat and expansion of gasses with formation of new gases, CO2, the velocity of the exhaust gas is
    rapidly accelerated.
    At higher altitude, one looses barometric pressure. IIRC at 14000 ft you are down
    to 1/2 ATM so your 7 to 1 compression is effectively 3.5 to 1. Loosing alot of power specially with piston engine. Better off Supercharging
    a piston engine.

    True, making things smaller will decrease is effectiveness exponentially.
    Agree with turboprop better than jet at around 300 MPH
    Jets work better at higher altitude.
     
  6. CavalloRosso

    CavalloRosso Formula 3

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    To me, it's not a matter of efficiency or even short fields. It's about payload. Look at the payload of a Mustang or Phenom 100 with full fuel and the turboprop starts looking better and better. A three-person max jet??? Really??? Of course jets really shine when it comes to altitude. It would be awesome to cruise along at FL410 but how often would you really get that in a light jet? Give me 315 kts at FL310 in a TBM and I will be perfectly happy.
     
  7. BlackonBlack

    BlackonBlack Formula Junior

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    +1
     
  8. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That's not necessarily true. The turboprop I'm flying these days only has about 100 pounds of useful load with full fuel-- of course, it can go 2,000 miles in that scenario.

    Don't underestimate the value of altitude. I can't tell you how many times I've looked down from FL410 and said "I'm sure glad I'm not in a turboprop today!"

     
  9. bradb1us

    bradb1us Karting

    Jun 19, 2009
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    Agreed 100%. FL410 and above you don't get near the bad weather.
     
  10. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    #10 solofast, Oct 31, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
    The combusion process doesn't really come into it when it comes to propulsive efficiency. Propulsive efficiency is basically an F=MA type of thing (I'm simplyifing here a bit but go with me). The higher the difference between the air that you are accelerating and the speed you are going, the lower the propulsive efficiency. Since F still equals M x A. The larger the mass you move at the lower acceleration, the better your propulsive efficiency. A turbojet doesn't move much air, but it accelerates it to Mach 1 (or more if you have a CD nozzle). You get high specific thrust (thrust per unit airflow), but it isn't efficient. A big high bypass fan moves more air and the exit velocity is lower, so it is more efficient. A prop moves even more air and therefore has even better propulsive efficiency up to a certain speed. Too high a speed and the tips of the props start to exceed the speed of sound and the efficiency falls off, but that's another issue.

    You don't understand what is making the thrust here. It isn't the engine pressure ratio that makes the thrust, it's the mass momentum change. The engine pressure ratio is the engine pressure ratio,as you go up in altitude the pressure ratio doesn't get worse, it actually can get better. This means that the specific fuel consumption (fuel consumed per pound of thrust) can often improve. The reason for that is that as you go up in altitude it gets colder. Colder air is easier to compress and the pressure ratio actually gets slightly better. Turbine engineers talk in terms of corrected speed of the compressor this is the rotor speed corrected for temperature effects and colder air makes the compressor think it is running faster and it actually makes a higher pressure ratio.

    The density of the air that you have available is lower, so the total power or thrust is lower, but whatever power you make it is made more efficiently (I'm ignoring Reynolds number effects here but these are second order). If you want a certain power at altitude you just have to size the engine for the power you want at what altitude you want to cruise at.

    This means that you might size the turbine for more power or thrust at sea level to get what you want at altitude. That's ok since the turbine is still about 1/5 the weight of reciprocating engine even when it is flat rated like this. This is why many turboprops are flat rated. They can make more power than the airframe can handle at low altitudes, but they are running at high power at high altitude, where they are efficient.
     
  11. wings

    wings Formula Junior

    Dec 13, 2003
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    And don't forget that all the presently certified VLJ's are twin engine. I would take that plus the FL410 versus the single Turboprop and maybe even a twin Turboprop.
     
  12. Jason Crandall

    Jason Crandall F1 Veteran

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    Do you realize how long it takes to get to 41K' flying out of Atlanta with all the step ups? I don't even hold 41K' as an option in my flying.

    I'll take a turboprop any day. I flew Las Vegas to Atlanta not long ago in a PC12 in 5.5 hours non stop. The same flight in any jet in the same price range would take twice as long because you'd have to stop for fuel.

    As for "what do passengers prefer"? Who cares? They can walk if they don't like my plane.
     
  13. BlackonBlack

    BlackonBlack Formula Junior

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    #13 BlackonBlack, Nov 2, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011

    Very true. However, you need that inefficiency (high difference between air exhaust and
    your speed) for T/O. In cruising is where this index come on its own specially for R & D.

    Isn't propulsive efficiency different for jets vs props?

    If there is no difference between velocity before the prop and after,
    there is no propulsion.

    Anyway, just think kerosene C12H26, for each CH get replaced by CO during combustion.
    C12H26(l) + 37/2 O2(g) &#8594; 12 CO2(g) + 13 H2O(g); &#8710;H&#730; = -7513 kJ

    intake is 37/2 O2
    exhaust is 12 CO2 + 13H20 + heat
    Nitrogen in = nitrogen out


    You've generated alot of mass from combustion of kerosene ( 12 carbon and 13 hydrogen
    atoms ). Therefore, mass in < mass out.

    Apples and oranges if compared to props where mass in = mass out.

    I do understand your point on Propulsive Efficiency.

    One would like to minimize the loss of energy on the exhaust velocity which decreases your efficiency.

    Best efficiency is when the velocity of the accelerated gas is the same velocity as the
    jet. However because of mass differential between the gas and the vehicle this will never
    happen. Still, all is in keeping with Newton's third law < = >.

    Regarding the compression of piston engines, I didn't explain myself well. What
    I wanted to say was as piston engines work in decreasing atmospheric pressure, its output
    decreases, even as it gets cold in higher altitude ( density increase from decrease in temp ). Sure colder temperature makes engine performance better because of more
    oxygen content per unit of air available for combustion. But this has nothing to do
    with Propulsive Efficiency. SFC yes.

    Thanks for your input in the forum above,

    Ed
     

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