Why am I burning oil????? | FerrariChat

Why am I burning oil?????

Discussion in '348/355' started by Joshieburger, Dec 1, 2015.

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  1. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    I need some super sherlock mechanic diagnosis/troubleshooting here. Since ive had my 348 i have been burning oil. Very negligible amount when just idling, so when i bought the car i fogured it was just a valve guide or something that needed to be adjusted whenever i get to doing the major... Well it was a nice day, so i figured id spend some time in the garage today and pull the plugs to do a compression test. When i pulled them, none of them were oil fouled, slightly dark, but not aweful. So now for the compression check... All of my compression numbers were 190-195! This is where i thought i was going to find my problem, as i suspected one cylinders rings were going to be bad, thus letting by oil, and burning. But no. Perfect numbers. Im not burning oil on startup, only after it warms up, so there goes the valve guide idea... I looked in the air box, and its dry, so no sucking any up through the bypass there.

    So after checking everything im left with three more possibilities that i can think of... And if you think you already have the answer, stop reading and type it, because i dont want my possibilities to sway someone elses expert opinion...

    1.) could a bad valve SEAL cause this? Only smoke after warm? Or would it give the same symptoms as a guide where it would burn the oil on startup?
    2.) could i possibly have the wrong viscosity of oil? Possibly too light so it is getting past the rings or valves somewhere? Could changing oil weights make a big difference? If so, what exactly should i try?

    Known issues that may be affecting this:
    1.)my secondary air injection tubes arent hooked up right, the vacuum lines lead from the white inline vacuum "switches" to nowhere... And those lines are all dry
    2.)my car was de-catted, and the o2 sensors were deleted. I have constant CEL's.
    3.)I also have a CEL code on both sides for coolant temp sensors (my fans stay on forever)
    4.)the car doesnt start on the first crank when cold. I have to turn the key all the way off, and re-prime the fuel pumps for it to start. I think i may have low pressure or some sort of problem with getting fuel to the engine, but runs fine once its started. Occasionally there will be a slight bog, where it feels like both banks arent sync'd while driving, which again points me to a possible fuel pressure problem.

    My second question relates to number 4 above. If i am getting too low of pressure, could i be running lean, without o2 sensors, could this cause smoke in the exhaust? Smoke that smells like oil (not likely)? To answer your next question, the oil does not have an obvious blue color like normal oil burning in the combustion chamber, its more of a white, however it is NOT coolant. It is not sweet smelling, and my oil nor coolant are discolored. I can only think the smoke is either lean fuel or oil.

    After sitting and idling in the garage, you can see the smoke faintly. If its warm and you rev it slightly in the garage it comes on a little bit more, if you take it for a drive, you cant see smoke coming out the back while driving, but when pulling to a stop sign or light, it plumes for a few seconds then dies down back to normal...

    I think ive written every possible detail i can think of, now its time to HELP!!! Bonus respect for anyone who can solve this problem for me without me having to pull my engine or heads! :)
     
  2. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Consultant Professional Ferrari Technician

    Sep 18, 2002
    19,948
    The Cold North
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Where is the oil level on the stick when warm?
     
  3. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,757
    Lake Villa IL
    I think the place to start would be install o2 sensors and get the temp sensors functioning.

    Shouldn't cause oil consumption on it's own but if the air fuel ratio is wildly off (and it most likely is) it would certainly not help the health of the engine.
     
  4. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    Half between full and add marks
     
  5. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Feb 18, 2008
    6,016
    Indio Ca/ Alberta
    Full Name:
    Grant
    You are checking oil levels while engine idling correct ? Just to be sure oil comes out exhaust and not burning from drips on headers or anything correct?

    Oil is nice and clean?


    Nothing to do with oil but why dont you fix some of the cheap easy problems first that you mentioned. Oftain it is easier to diagnose when only 1 problem exists.

    When you run it hard and park it any oil leaks on ground?
     
  6. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2004
    7,776
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bruce Bogart
    Agreed. This. Then rediagnose if it continues. o2's are a very basic part of the engine management.
     
  7. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    I agree about the o2's, but i have read on other posts here that o2 sensors only affect the engine at idle? Or was it the other way around? Crap, now i feel foolish... Anyway, oil is clean, oil is definitely not burning ON the engine, its burning through the exhaust. Not leaving any oil spots on the ground. I would LOVE to get the o2s back but i havent made any stooge friends here on Oahu, and the pigtails for the o2's are nowhere to rven be found on the engine harness, so my little brain cant fathom where to start woth getting those back... And the service prices on this island are a good 30% higher than those of the mainland, so im trying to do the "little things" myself.
     
  8. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    Through all of that description of the symptoms you've never mentioned how much oil is being lost over a given number of miles. The only symptom you mention that hints at oil consumption is smoke, only the smoke is not blue.

    Add to the mix the fact that you have a number of things telling the ECUs that the engine is cold. You don't tell us what the temp gauge reads at full operating temperature but with the fans running all the time there's a very good chance that the engine is indeed running cooler than it is supposed to, which is bad for a number of reasons.

    As I have told you before, if the engine temp sensors are defective or not hooked up, the ECUs will think that the engine is at a sub-freezing temperature and will richen the mixture significantly. This is not only bad for the rings and liners, but it could very well cause... wait for it... smoke.

    Now, if the engine is run under those conditions for a long enough period of time, the rings and liners will wear due to the oil on the cylinder walls being diluted by the excess fuel. That will cause excess oil consumption and yes, smoke. But it may not show up as readily in a compression test as you might think because the oil leaking past the rings serves as a seal, essentially making every compression test you make a "wet" one. You could, of course, get a good sense of whether that is happening by performing your own dry and then wet compression tests, and comparing those numbers.

    But back to the big picture, which is the fact that if your engine is indeed running cold or rich, or both, it is suffering premature wear. And if it is running as rich as it might be based on what you have told us here and in previous posts, that could even account for the lion's share of the smoke. As I and others have told you before, and as has been pointed out above, you need to address these engine management issues in order to get to the root of any other problems, if indeed there are any.
     
  9. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jun 11, 2004
    11,220
    CT
    Full Name:
    John Kreskovsky
    Are you sure it is oil smoke and not water? Have you checked the coolant level? Bad valve guides usually result in smoke at start up that then clears with the possibility of smoke off throttle. Rings typically yield smoke on throttle.
     
  10. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    #10 Ricambi America, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The pigtails for the O2 sensors are mounted on the top of the gearbox, basically aft of the oil filter location. If you remove the airbox and look straight downward, you should see them.

    FWIW, we at Ricambi America ship to Hawaii via USPS Priority. For $6.50 shipping, you'd probably have them on Saturday: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/collections/oxygen-sensors/146650-o2-sensor-348-mondial-t-512tr.html
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    37,089
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Like you have already been advised, fix the known problems before looking for unknown problems.

    Then be sure you understand the oil checking procedure. You mention it being warm, that is not good enough. There is a specified minimum OIL temp, be sure it is above that and follow the directions in the manual to the letter for checking the oil level.
     
  12. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    Thanks ricambi for the photo. Problem is mine only has the mounting points for where the o2 sensor harness ends would be, no wires. Ive been all over the engine, even deep inside the manifold valley with my videoscope and cannot find any wire ends that would possibly connect to o2 sensor wires. Its just blank space. So the temp sensors wont be too hard to replace, but the o2's may need a complete rewire into the main harness.

    On the temp sensors, when i pull them out, will that put a lot of air in the cooling system? If so, is there a good way to purge the air?

    On checking the oil, yes i have read the entire owner and service manuals cover to cover multiple times. Im well versed on how to check the oil because overservicing was my first thought when i saw the smoke on a dry sump system. I check the oil while idling at OPERATING oil temp. Of course, the previous owner DID overservice it, because why wouldnt he? He messed everything else up, so why not the oil too? So i drained it to proper level the week i bought it, and i have driven about 400 miles with no change in smoke. Consumption seems about right in accordance with the manual too.

    So i will replace my coolant temp sensors, and hopefully someone can point me in the direction to go with the o2's...
     
  13. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2004
    7,776
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bruce Bogart
    I see your car is a 90. If it's a 2.5 (one TPS) car, you may not have the bracket for o2 wiring, but has wiring for 3-wire o2s exiting the big looms at the base of the intake manifold. Maybe cut back the sleeve an inch or two and see if they've been cut off there?
    BTW, US delivery car?
     
  14. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    It has two tps, and the ecu models come up as 2.7 as well i believe.
     
  15. WPOZZZ

    WPOZZZ F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2012
    6,508
    Honolulu, HI
    Glad to see you plugging away at it! I thought you had given up when I saw it on CL two weeks ago.
     
  16. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    Im on the fence about it, its just too beautiful to give up on. Just wish i had a checklist of what to do first. I hate to say it but i may have to bring it in to JN Exotics just to have them do the o2's or tell me where the damn wires are at least...
     
  17. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    And i only had it up for like 3 hours, but had 5 calls and 3 different texts. Thats when i knew i needed to take it down.
     
  18. WPOZZZ

    WPOZZZ F1 Veteran

    Aug 22, 2012
    6,508
    Honolulu, HI
    Why not go to Larry Thompson? He is sowest on this board and posts in the Hawaii section. He is a very accomplished mechanic that works on older British and Italian cars and is very knowledgeable on Ferraris and Lambos as he works on some Dinos, 308, 328, 348, 355, Miura... He is definitely a Ferrari owners friend.
     
  19. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    So after camping out in the garage for a week, i finally dug far enough where i found some good and bad news that i may now need more help with. Since my air box, air tubes, throttle bodies and filter were all dry, i figured i would check inside the intake manifold just to fully rule out oil coming in that way. Stuck my video scope in the throttle body and found it was very wet. Not soaking puddles of oil or anything, but wet enough to get smoke if it gets in the cylinders, which im betting it is. So i said to myself, wtf? Why are the entire intake paths dry, but there is oil in the intake?? Lead me to believe i should kill myself because its probably an intake manifold gasket. So instead of taking a straight razor to my wrists, i thought, hmm, i guess ill check the oil tank overflow hoses one more time. The ends where they meet the intake tubes were dry (so i thought), but i hadnt checked from the t-fitting all the way back to the tank. Sure enough, inside was pooled with oil, so much that it was even slightly leaking past the hose clamp at the t. Looked dry from above but until i wrapped my whole hand around it, i didnt realize there was oil there. Luckily it didnt burn all over my engine to get smoke from the engine compartment, but it was still leaking. So now i have the entire oil tank overflow hose assembly off. Im going to clean it out, and then reinstall.

    So here-in lies my problem. Why, even though the oil is NOT over-filled, am i still pooling up oil in this hose? Why is it leaving the tank? Could it just be residual oil from when it WAS overserviced? If so, why hasnt it burned off yet? A couple hundred miles since the oil level correction and still burning what is in that hose? Or is something causing oil to flow through it?? Ugh! Guess after cleaning it and reinstalling, ill take it off again after a few miles to check if its wet again.

    Since i have my airbox off, im going to do an oil change to Mobile 1 0w-40. Does anyone object to this? Also while the filter is off ill be replacing my coolant temp sensors. Am i going to leak coolant everywhere when i pull the sensors? And how can i purge the air if coolant leaks out?

    Thanks for the support guys, ill get this baby back to tip top if it kills me!
     
  20. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    So i just HAD to put all the hoses back on and run it ONE MORE TIME (without the oil change or sensors done yet), after cleaning the hoses of all oil inside. Seemed like success until the usual 15 minute idle had elapsed, the oil temp needle started to rise amd then like clockwork... Smoke. Seemed like almost MORE this time. It does fine even when engine gets to operating temp, just as SOON as the oil temp needle livens, smoke comes on. Really makes me think its the wrong viscosity. But i guess still could be the temp sensors, so might as well take it all back off and but the bullet. This suuuuuucks.
     
  21. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    Is it possible to bypass the oil blowby hose that puts it back into the intake? Why would anyone want extra oil going back into their combustion chamber anyway??? This has got to be where my oil burn source is coming from.
     
  22. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    How about disconnecting it from the top of the oil tank, plugging the end of the hose, and then running the engine to see how much blowby you get from the fitting on the oil tank? You'd need to know what typical blowby looks like in order to get a sense of whether yours is abnormal or not, but that would be a really easy way to determine if you've got a blowby issue or something else is causing the oil to be ingested.

    To answer your question, the crankcase vent hose does not have to be connected to the intake but the crankcase does have to be vented. And while its not ideal from a performance standpoint for the engine to ingest crankcase vapors, in practice it is a very minor issue unless there is a problem with the PCV system or the engine has excessive blowby. In either case, disconnecting the PCV system is merely a bandaid fix.

    My fear all along is that you have excessive ring wear as a result of an overly rich mixture due to all the EMS hacks the car has suffered. This latest info points in that direction, but more diagnostics are required. How many miles on the engine?
     
  23. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    63k. So definitely a driven car, which im fine with, just wish i wasnt burning. Im not too concerned with the rings as the numbers are good. Maybe once the blowby stops ill do another compression test, that way ill know its a dry test.

    First things first i have to get the temp sensors changed out. Whats the best way to lower the level of coolant just enough to be below the sensors? Or am i SOL and will have to drain the entire system?
     
  24. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    Like I said before, if you're getting blowby past the rings the compression readings won't tell you much because every test you take is essentially a wet one.

    If there is blowby, it isn't going to stop by itself-- it will require ring replacement at the very least. The definition of blowby is cylinder pressure escaping into the crankcase. That condition does not fix itself. At 63k miles, and with the EMS hacked as it is, it looks more and more like bad rings.

    I have never replaced the CTSs on a 348 so I can't say for sure, but if it were mine I'd just have everything I need (including lots of rags) within reaching distance and just swap them out. If you keep the cooling system sealed elsewhere (cap on, etc), you're not going to lose very much coolant at all through that small hole since it will be working against a vacuum.
     
  25. Joshieburger

    Joshieburger Karting

    Aug 21, 2015
    162
    Oahu, Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Josh
    Thank you mike. I greatly value your expertise. Ill get the temp sensors replaced then ill bag the end of the blowby hose to see how much im getting within say 100 miles... That should tell me more. There has to be some acceptable amount of blowby, otherwise i would think it wouldnt be a recirculating system. If they had it drain onto the floor of your garage, rather than back into your engine, i think people would worry a lot more about it.
     

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