Why am i getting tail happy?

It's the last session on Sunday 2-16-14 at Barber Motorsports, I have Mich Pilot Supersports with much tread left. Did I just not hit the line at 1:20 or is it my tires, or do I need a rear wing! Or maybe I'm just getting more aggressive and need slicks, it's my second ever track event.

 

Oops, forgot the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3p8fGABnzQ&feature=youtu.be

 

You got tail happy because you didn't have my butt in the passenger seat to balance things out!

 

HAAA! thanks for the help this weekend, I think I need a Challenge. At least a Capi 3 with slicks, I'm too quiet and loose currently, a wing wouldn't hurt either but they are not cheap.

 

Slicks would mask the problem. I hate video hard to see what is really happening like terrain changes etc. Looks like you are still braking at #1 and road is very slight right crowning so accentuates the weight transfer difficulty to the left turn. It is hard to see the terrain but I would brake with right pointed bias before direction change left and be on gas earlier. You need to be on gas not throttle feathering. Others who know that turn at Barber would have more accurate comments.

 

The track goes downhill and slightly off-camber at that left-right complex. You had begun to turn, and were going pretty quickly. Tires on the warm side, expecially after the spin.

When you came off the throttle after you turned, the weight in the rear wanted to keep going.

You need to get more speed off in the brake zone so that you can be back ON throttle and drive through instead of off throttle and changing direction. Great track...

No instructor with you? That would help make the learning curve less steep. You're developing/continuing some habits that are not going to help as you get quicker.

 

A+ for enthusiasm. You need more seat time, Grasshopper. It helps with that intangible feel for pace, rotation and so much more.

PS you don't need slicks, you need a lower power track car that will force you to drive with more precision and not make you want to commit suicide if you jack it up.

 

Please forgive the naive question (I hope it's related enough to the thread), but how would someone who doesn't know anything about driving on a track select a good instructor to give them a good start? Are there certain questions that should be asked, certain qualifications to look for, or are good instructors mainly found via referral from local enthusiasts?

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Not a naive question at all! Many clubs (PCA/FCA/BMWCCA) and for-profit track day franchisors (Hooked on Driving/NASA/ReZoom/Chin/TrackDaze) provide somewhat vetted, experienced drivers as instructors for those students entering the sport.

I think it's fun to do what the OP did, get his car out onto a track, a more safe (than public roads), controlled (all the traffic is one way, nobody talking on the phone) environment.

But this is when the opportunity to take advantage of experienced amateur instructors makes the most sense. Most of the groups "check out" those who instruct with them, but the best instructors aren't branded such, but are known as being better than the rest, and for that, referrals from other drivers that frequent the clubs that the OP (or you) attend are best.

Still think the most solid foundation comes from a professional school, like Skip Barber, Bertil Roos, SimRaceway, Bondurant and others. Then, you have good, proven basic skills and understanding.

Later, these clubs can provide an in-car instructor that can provide immediate feedback.

It's a slippery, very fun slope!

 

Thanks Peter.

And, yes, it does look like a lot of fun.

Your 355 sounds glorious, Jeff!

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Spot on! That turn required you to scrub more speed in the braking zone and then get back on the throttle at the bottom of the downhill to transfer your weight to the rear of the car. The spin in the previous lap overheated your tires - and it takes awhile for them to come back again after a spin. I was an instructor for this event and was able to ride with Jeff in an earlier session.

 

your fine!

how do you know whats out of bounds if you don't push. pic your line, execute best you can and have fun. (learn to heel/toe) be mindful of unloading the rear in these. they are not nearly as hairy as vint porches. Throttle is your friend and you have enough hp to drive out of most anything.
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I've instructed at track days. From the brief vid, I see that you are too aggressive with steering and brake inputs (a bit jerky), upsetting the car with excessive weight shifts fore/aft and left/right. Think of balancing all 4 tires/corners at all times, including drifts and rotation. Then you 4 good contact patches instead of 3 (or less--not good).

The faster and closer to the limit you are, the gentler the inputs should be, particularly in sweepers and esses. Slow corners be more aggressive. If you need to adjust your line in a fast sweeper, hold the lock steady and use the throttle to tighten or loosen the line.

 

how is it that the video shows so much of your back ? where is the seat ?

 

Second event ever - don't touch the car other than maybe tire pressures, you need a lot more time to get a feel for the car. If you start making changes now, you'll set yourself back as you need a constant base to build on. Once you get to the point that you can click off multiple laps in a row within a few tenths, then you're at the point you can start adjusting the car.

That looked to me like a fairly normal correction, nothing wrong with the car.

 

+1

Putting slicks on is not advisable at all. Once they let go...big trouble, at higher speed.

Get some seat time in a MX5 (or Miata, as they're called in the US) and have an instructor with you (in both cars)

 

I would say do not go to slicks. Slicks are less forgiving then street tires, and don't give you a warning before breaking loose. Learn to drive the car first, then worry about the equipment like slicks, bigger brakes, more HP, etc. Too many newbees think they are going fast, but they are not, and get into trouble by pushing harder without the correct skills to handle the speed, and end up losing it.

As ProCoach said, get yourself an instructor and use him. Lots of track events have instructors available. Ask around and find yourself someone who is good with new drivers. You need to get a lot of seat time under your belt before a lot of the things you are learning become second nature. But you need to practice things the right way, and the only way to do that is with good instruction. Get and use an instructor. If they offer class room work between sessions, attend all of them. And if you have a chance, attend a three or five day racing school, like Spring Mountain or one of the other schools where you are diving regular cars, not open wheel race cars, unless that's the way you want to go. After a few days of training like that, you will see a marked difference in how you drive and better understand what is going on. Oh, and it doesn't hurt to pick up a couple of the books out there on racing and read up on it. The more you know, the safer you will be.

p.s. If you are serious about this and intend to do more track events, consider getting a racing seat, harness bar, a 5 or 6 point racing harness, and a HANS device. Once you understand the dynamics of a potential crash on the track, you will never go out again without a proper seat, harness and the HANS. Check it out: Video

 

Jeff- If you make your way to Road America for any events in the future, hit me up! I instruct there and would be more than happy to ride shotgun and take you through the paces up there!

Slicks have such a small window for forgiveness whereas a street tire will talk to you and you can feel the car through a slide if you overcook things especially as your learning the limits of the car and technique.

 

Like everyone else has said, you don't need slicks at this point.

The tires were probably a bit overheated and greasy. You needed a little slower entry speed. I think there was a bit of trailing throttle oversteer as a result. A good save nonetheless!

I would definitely be working to master heel and toe. I have found that my Ferraris love a good double clutch downshift. The car will be much more balanced.