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488 Why are Pistas not selling ?

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Texas2step, Jan 12, 2020.

  1. Il Co-Pilota

    Il Co-Pilota Formula 3

    May 29, 2019
    1,302
    Copenhagen
    Full Name:
    A.B
    On this side of the pond, nobody was forced to buy a Lusso to get a Pista. That's not a Ferrari thing, that's just US dealers playing games.
     
  2. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2011
    3,925
    East
    I know a few that didnt have to purchase a Lusso in the states as well but it seems that majority did. I think some of these people felt burned.
     
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  3. Borrow’d Mine

    Borrow’d Mine Karting

    Nov 28, 2019
    72
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Allan
    They always depreciated. Maybe slower, but it was still a downward trend line. Unless, of course you are in the “collectable” vs “driver” market.
    If you are buying new models early to sell above sticker, that isn’t investing. It’s gambling. Just sayin.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  4. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 24, 2011
    3,925
    East
    There are some that dont care and there are also lots of new customers. I have also seen where the dealer doesn't discount the car for sale but over allows on the trade so essentially discounting. As new cars sit in the back of the showroom they will be forded to discount and/or offer other incentives. The new, special, limited car thing will run its course as well. With this said, if they make great cars there will always be a buyer.
     
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  5. Graz

    Graz Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 15, 2012
    1,789
    New Jersey
    Full Name:
    Thomas
    So true. Nothing wrong with the Brand. As with other marks its the people representing the Brand that is and has always been the problem. Bottom line, no product no matter how "valuable" it is perceived to be can outlast inconsistency by those that represent it.
     
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  6. ghost

    ghost F1 Veteran
    Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 10, 2003
    9,787
    Singapore
    As long as the same keeps happening when you buy Lambo's and McLaren's. Does anybody make money on these marques. I certainly haven't on the many Lambo's I've owned in my lifetime. I don't buy McLaren's as I've not warmed up to their styling, but is anybody making money on their 720's? I just read a remark that 30 of them were sitting on a dealer site unsold, so I doubt it.

    Other than Ferrari's, the standard rule of thumb that I have used for other exotic new car ownership is a 15% loss in Year 1 and 10% in Years 2 and onwards. I don't hold any car for very long, so my "curve" only goes out 3-4 years, but that thumbrule has worked out well in general for that period of time. Sometimes I get lucky and the curve is shallower, and sometimes it's steeper. C'est la vie! This rule of thumb is obviously only relevant for "normal" production cars.

    Ferrari's are now probably going to be the same. So if you spend $350,00 for a Pista Coupe, you'd be looking at a $53k loss in Year 1, maybe a little less because the depreciation curves are still shallower than others, but it will still be a loss of tens of thousands of dollars. Guess we will all have to deal with it.

    The new reality is hard pill to swallow. Sellers don't want to accept it. Don't want to take the loss. There is a stubborn believe that the market will come back. Premiums will be paid for limited production (not limited edition) cars. But Buyers know what's up and are not willing to pony up the premiums being asked and then be the sucker that takes it in the shorts later.

    That's why the market is currently at a standstill. But if anybody is going to blink, I'd venture it will be Sellers. Time will tell.
     
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  7. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 25, 2012
    6,677
    Arizona
    No Lusso here.
     
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  8. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    2,247
    Uk
    In the UK it is rare to see a 430 for sale this past year or so. Lots of 488s not moving at silly money.
     
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  9. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,542
    Australia
    #84 Shadowfax, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
    Wow. You definitely completely lost me with all that. Can't recall ever mentioning anything about buying a Ferrari and expecting to turn it for a profit anywhere....?? My account on purchasing my 488 and Pista is real. That's exactly how it was. And that was exactly what was said.

    It's widely accepted there will be depreciation but it's how much depreciation that one would consider acceptable that is more the point being made here given the significant price paid, period of ownership and, actual usage. Then there is what is told and assured by the dealer at time of contract signing - keeping in mind the dealer is the brands official representative selling their cars.

    Ok. So what does one consider fair depreciation on a car of the value of a 488? And a Pista? And what does one consider fair play?

    And automotive treats? Blaming Ferrari? Well thanks for the wonderful education but it all reads to me like you've had one too many glasses of the Ferrari Koolaid.....

    I do hope you realize Ferrari is not the only brand making "automotive treats"?

    Oh and BTW there was a contract that had to be signed as part of being given Pista allocation. Crazy but true. It's like you can buy the car but we will control the sale of it, if it all doesn't work out. I thought that was pretty cool.:)
     
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  10. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,542
    Australia
    Much the same situation over here. It's a very tough market with a lot of great cars to choose from. Buyers are very thin on the ground and most that do want to buy have finance limitations and, are very cautious. Those few with the big $ are still there but are very fussy and choosy, and for good reason when you look at the actual resale prices being achieved on near new cars.
     
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  11. Art138

    Art138 Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 22, 2007
    512
    Ft. Lauderdale
    I paid 20 thousand dollar deposit last April at Ft. Laud Ferrari for an F8. My build is estimated circa 372 thousand. Was told I would be lucky to get an April,2020 allotment. I am seeing Pistas as low as 469 thousand with offers (200 miles). If a low mileage Pista comes down to 430 thousand that’s a 60 thousand delta difference. Do any of you see Pistas at circa 400 thousand by 2020 years end? If so, I may request my deposit and go with a Pista.
     
  12. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,542
    Australia
    I don't know but anything is possible given the market. Probably best to speak to your dealer about a bail-out clause in the event you change your mind. I would imagine that if your F8 hasn't been called for build you should be able to get your deposit back. It's really only after the car goes into build using your individual spec that you would have a problem I imagine.
     
  13. RoyalPink

    RoyalPink Karting
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 18, 2019
    159
    My dilemma about the F8 is I drove it for less than 10 minutes when it was at Towbin Ferrari in LV back in December. Posted a video and some pics on F-Chat. I told Ken my sales guy that I need to drive it some more before I decide. They are suppose to be getting one at the dealer as their own dedicated demo this month or next so they say. At a 293k base, I'm expecting around a 375k build. I'm actually considering at this point to just get a 2018 488. Should be able to pick up a decent one for 225k. That's 150k savings and I'm having a hard time justifying the extra on a brand new first year car which will depreciate 50k as I'm driving it off the lot. Going to wait and see what happens to 488 pricing as F8's roll in this summer. So I have some time to figure out what I want to do.
     
  14. IPO1

    IPO1 F1 Rookie

    Dec 23, 2015
    3,272
    Your thinking is wise. IF you really hunt and talk to brokers today you can get one today for price you mentioned.

    Happy hunting.

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  15. rockminster

    rockminster Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    636
    SF Bay Area
    If resale value is a concern, and I think it is to everyone to some degree, I think there’s a fairly simple theorem to follow.

    Buy cars (either new or pre-owned) that are selling or sold for a meaningful premium when they were new. Over their lifetime, these cars will do better than the typical car in their class.

    Note that I didn’t say these cars won’t decline in value and I’m not endorsing paying a premium (either directly or via the Lusso play). I’m simply stating that when cars demand a premium when new there’s something about the car’s design, performance, styling, etc that says “this car’s a winner” and that type of interest means the car will always be more desirable than its peers.

    I’m an advocate of paying up to get one of these special cars vs their more pedestrian brethren because the tip of the spear in the model line almost always hold its value better than the core models. For me, it’s about ultimate cost of ownership, not cost of acquisition.

    Examples in the Ferrari line (not coupe and spider where applicable) include CS vs 360, scud vs 430 (scud’s didn’t really sell for premiums but that was the crappy global economy), Speciale vs 458, Pista vs 488, and arguably F12TDF vs F12 though the TDF is getting to a price point that it may not be relevant to the range I’m thinking about.

    There are other good examples from Porsche with their GT cars. The GT3, GT3RS and GT2RS have now fallen back in price and most are under MSRP but people who bought at or near MSRP have gotten spectacular driving value for their money.

    The current Speedster is the most recent chum in the water in this space. People are paying big premiums that will subside, but the car, as expensive as it is (relative to a GT3), will always be very desirable and when bought right will treat the owners balance sheet better than most anything else out there (again I I didn’t say appreciate!).

    What does this mean about the current Ferrari lineup? Well, to my knowledge nothing is trading for a premium and allocations are available for most or maybe all cars in the lineup. F8 buyers will be getting amazing machines but it will be unrealistic to expect anything other than rinse/repeat on 488 depreciation.

    The SF90 will be an interesting one, as the first “production” hybrid. I have my own theory on how that will play out - let’s just say it’s a car I’d lease




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. ChadR

    ChadR Karting

    Jun 19, 2019
    202
    Will this work for 2020 also?
     
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  17. Coincid

    Coincid Formula 3

    Dec 9, 2014
    1,548
    Canada
    Those Pista prices seem to be very close to list.
     
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  18. ChadR

    ChadR Karting

    Jun 19, 2019
    202
    Ferrari driver's love v12s and all-motor cars. The Pista has none of these...

    The F40 and the 80's 3litres are an exception however...
     
  19. ChadR

    ChadR Karting

    Jun 19, 2019
    202
    Telling someone that they should spend 400k + on a car just for fun and not worry about the resale value is wild. :D

    I mean, we trying to keep the money...

    A Ferrari owner shouldn't worry about resale value? I mean really think about it...

    And there are so many cheaper options if you want to burn some money for fun.
     
  20. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    2,701
    France
    That's my guess also, and after negociation the initial buyer will certainly lose money (considering the dealer commission) - although not much, unless he paid more than MSRP one way or another.
    But the market is globally bleak today, so it's not a bad performance from the Pista.
     
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  21. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula Junior

    Oct 17, 2015
    394
    In California, premium of 50k will simply be a wash due to lack of tax credit in transaction (unless if it's a lease and no tax upfront) and one has to pay for tax on the profit.

    With all these works and investment up front to get to the point where one can buy pista at MSRP, I think at the end one should just admit - unless you have crazy enthusiasm for exotic cars, any idea that car is a sound investment is simply a fantasy.

    Just drive the toy. It's a damn car with a steering wheel and 4 wheels. It's meant to be driven.
     
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  22. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula Junior

    Oct 17, 2015
    394
    This is one of the most well said pieces I have read in a while.
     
  23. IloveGT

    IloveGT Formula Junior

    Oct 17, 2015
    394
    Go with pista. Just wait for it.
     
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  24. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    2,701
    France
    As they say - past performance is no guarantee for the future.
    While having bought the stock early would have been / was a very good business, I'm not so sure it would be now; actually I'm not sure the current Ferrari business model is sustainable for a long time and if it's not the stock will adjust.
     
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  25. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie

    Jun 10, 2016
    2,542
    Australia
    Agree and agree. No point waffling on about what used to happen yesterday, last year or the years before that. That's gone. It's whats happening now that matters.

    For Pista's to be selling at Msrp or close to is very good all things considering.
     

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