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Why do the F430 batteries seem to be always needing charging ?

Discussion in '360/430' started by neil e dale, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Must see the interview we did with Piero Ferrari in Maranello! https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/news/297
  1. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    neil e dale
    I was wondering what the etiology, cause of all the batteries going flat and requiring a charge /charger is ? Is there an issue of Parasitic voltage draw in these models ? is it the alarm system ? thx , regards, Neil
     
  2. BlacktopRacing

    BlacktopRacing Formula Junior
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    No reason I can think of other than it's an Italian sportscar. Same reason the clock can't keep accurate time, the "off" button means on and the airbag switch is confusing. That said, I start mine up at least once a week if I don't drive it, and if I can't, I put it on the charger. Never had any battery issues, probably as a result of this.
     
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  3. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 Veteran
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    hahaha great answer!
     
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  4. Bob in Texas

    Bob in Texas Formula 3
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    Yep, That's definitely the best answer to the question ever.
    Might also have something to do with these cars not being daily drivers...
     
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  5. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Rookie
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    They are no worse than any other car:

    Batteries will naturally go flat over time, the charge slowly leaks away internally and through the case (skipping a long technical answer). A battery will only sit holding a charge for 4 months or so and that assumes good storage temps, isolation, etc. Sit one on a concrete floor and see how fast it goes flat. Raise or lower the temp a lot and it greatly impacts the charge and hold times for a battery.

    The parasitic draw for the system is pretty low, even compared to other modern cars. Parasitic draw is under 50ma. Experience says they hold for 4-6 weeks and that is in the ballpark for the math. If you are going less than 3-4 weeks you likely have another issue; it is not uncommon for there to be wear causing partial shorts in the wiring harness so I would start hunting for the offending circuit/circuits and track down the issue.

    As pointed out, these are not daily drivers so they don't get started that often. Combine the infrequent use with the basic characteristics of a battery and you can have a flat battery pretty often; particularly across a large group like Fchat.
     
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  6. Way2fast

    Way2fast Formula 3

    May 24, 2006
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    I use a tender on my 430. I have the same battery since Jan. 2008

    Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk
     
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  7. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    ............................................................Hey! thx for your response Well I've been researching for an article about batteries ( I'm an automotive writer/tester) and have some batteries/ chargers I received to test fr Odyssey, Optima, Duracell, Bosch. So, I know some of that info. I would say the charge leaking thru the case and If sitting one on a concrete floor, is an old-school wives tale nowadays w/ the plastic cases. that can't, is unlikely to happen! The new(er) AGM batteries ( Absorbed glass mat ) are superlative and will hold a charge for a long time. and will not leak. Even if shot w/a bullet ! I was surprised that there are not a plethora of lithium batteries available now! But when used as an SLI ( Starter, Lights, Ignition ) battery it seems the old lead acid have decided advantages! EG cost, energy density, etc. Lithium require a well designed, complicated, sophisticated BMS (battery management System ) and are very, very expensive. The technology is not evolved enough yet, unfortunately! ( Despite what people may erroneously believe ! ) One battery engineer told me the analogy of the current state of the art is like: "A younger, very difficult, demanding, picky , high maintenence trophy wife !" ( I bet someone in this crowd can relate! ?? - LOL ) We need more advances in cell chemistry and heaps of scientists, primarily chemists are working on it! Indeed, it's been said we need a WWII Manhattan Project, ( atomic bomb ) level of project $ expenditure - ( said to be the most expensive research/ production project ever done ) to find, produce truly efficient, practical, usable batteries! regards, Neil
     
  8. Scout123

    Scout123 Karting

    Nov 1, 2017
    92
    That is hilarious. As a recent first time Ferrari owner, I noticed all three of those things immediately. I will add....Same reason your car cas to be on to open the gas lid, glove compartment and storage bin; the check engine light stays on abnormally long after start up; and the car beeps when in reverse causing you to think you have a back up sensor like your other cars.
     
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  9. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    .......................HA HA yea all cars have quirks! My Saab has an ignition key switch between the seats ( to prevent knee injuries !) and you cannot remove it unless it is in reverse! ( manual trans ) The Ferrari ? can be repaired different clock chip ? You should have to have the key on to open the gas cap lid ! want someone messing w/ your gas? glove box? storage bin? - especially on a spyder ! w/ the top down !
     
  10. Shinigami

    Shinigami Formula Junior
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    I've gone about 10 days in between starting my 360, and it has been ok. If it were to be longer than this, I'd be cautious enough to turn that dial in the frunk to disengage the battery due to all the stories I hear here about how important a well charged battery is for Ferrari's. Usually I drive her almost every day (unless I'm travelling for business or pleasure), so I've been lucky enough to not have any problems.

    My Lotus Elise (sold recently), was also fine if not driven for a week or two. Garage told me to not leave a key in the ignition, as this engages the car radio and will drain the battery (I never listened to that radio anyway, the speakers in a second gen Elise are not great and I mostly drove her with the top down anyway).
    My second gen Mercedes SLK 55 AMG could even sit 3 weeks and she'd start right up, as did my Brabus SLK before that. As long as I drove them and didn't let them sit longer than 3 or 4 weeks, I had no issues.

    Having said all that, I was reading another post in the 458/488 section and some people noted that when their Ferrari was turned off, you could still see a faint light on the middle rear brake light bar. It seems like there's some parasitic draw, at least on those models, and perhaps it's those brake lights. I personally haven't seen such draw on the rear brake light bar on my 360, but maybe some 430 owners with a dark garage could check if any of the lights on their vehicles emit even the smallest amount of light in a dark room?

    (my garage is a co-hosted one, so I can't turn the lights entirely off, but even if I squint my eyes, I don't see any leakage in my car... so either it's the alarm that drains the battery at least on a 360, or something else...)
     
  11. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Rookie
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    What you wrote is true BUT they will still drain through the case. Odyssey designed the Optima battery: the rolled cell was their design but it wouldn't hold up to the very rugged military applications, at least not with anything resembling reasonable QC during manufacture. SO they sold the design and started over. Both are good batteries for our purposes. AGM batteries have a much lower internal resistance but less parasitic loss. AGM doesn't have the charge density of a we lead/acid but often has higher CCA because of the internal resistance. Lead/acid are VERY forgiving for cold, hot, excess drain, etc. but they pay for that in weight, orientation requirements, etc. It is all a tradeoff when it comes to batteries.

    The F1 adds another problem to the battery issue. The pumps take a LOT of current so they tend to pull a battery down before you can start the car (during priming). Not an issue with a charged battery but if it is low or somewhat depleted it pulls the surface charge and you suddenly find yourself causing voltage sag when you crack the engine over. You won't see that in the Mercedes referenced by Heikki because they don't have an F1 pump and you won't see it in the newer cars because the double clutch works differently.
     
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  12. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

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    #12 neil e dale, Sep 15, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
    Thank you ! a very informative reply ! so one fix is a superlative battery , or better yet, a dual battery system ! - as used in many vehicles -and aircraft ! should be cake to find a place for a lightweight lithium battery and a battery isolator and the wiring plenty could afford it ! the best Bosch battery the S-6 AGM is not sold in the USA ! as guess what ? there are only about two battery makers in the USA ! and they make about all the batteries and just slap whomevers label on them , use their case design !
     
  13. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

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    correction! the time limit expired for editing whilst I was researching !, verifying sources sorry! Bosch S-6 ARE available here (as per websites ) I'll call sellers ! they were not available before - listed but unavailable thx Neil
     
  14. Rohry

    Rohry Rookie
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    Jun 5, 2015
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    I've had my 2007 F 430 for almost four years and have used Odyssey AGM batteries for three of those years. I normally put a tender on it, but I was having problems with the AC electricity in my storage unit last winter and put the car in storage without the tender and with the alarm on.
    Battery was almost dead when I went to start it 3 and 1/2 weeks later ( reading 9 or 10 volts, I think). I e-mailed Odyssey customer support (no dealers in our area) and they told me that the alarm system on Ferrari's draw a lot of juice. They also said that running the car will not normally charge an AGM battery that is below a certain voltage, Something about the voltage regulator not suited for "deep charging"?
    Long story short, they gave me instructions on how to bring the Odyssey back to life involving a high-tech "smart charger." I brought it up to Karl at European Auto in North Charleston, SC and he "brought it back to life." When I've kept it on a tender I've had no problems.
    One interesting note, the Odyssey people told me that if the user depletes the voltage on their AGMs below a certain voltage (10?), then it voids the 4 year warranty!
     
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  15. I think it just comes down to batteries not liking occasional use situations.
    My friends who drive their DDs minimally, say 5000-6000 Kms per year, replace their batteries every 3years or so. I often drive my DD 15000-20000kms per year, and will usually get 9years or so out of an OEM battery.

    My uncles runabout boat got used about 1-2x a month...his battery was often flat. My similar size boat got used every weekend because our cabin was on an island, and never was flat.
     
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  16. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    Very interesting reply ! I am still evaluating the Odyssey battery that I received to test! We noticed it is a very heavy battery compared to some ! from what I know, yes any battery depleted to a certain extent cannot come back so it would make sense to not warranty it though I cannot imagine how they would know? there is no BMS = battery Management System built into the battery! FYI when I got the battery they sent the wrong one but I was able to swap it w/ one w/ the terminals in the correct configuration from a local dealer - 4 wheel parts! I was told they, Odyssey batteries have an awesome reputation for reliability among off-road 4 wheel drive users ( tough crowd ! ) and the battery can last for 10 + years! ( assuming kept charged !) If so, that is very unusual and a notable achievement! [​IMG]
     
  17. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

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    Yes, batteries cannot survive being depleted and left uncharged! I have used individual very small solar panels, on the garage roof hardwired, dedicated to each car to keep the voltage up in our cars and M/c's not used regularly and small, unmounted solar panels placed on the dash whilst parked. On outdoor kept cars w/a car cover, ( not a Ferrari ) we velcroed one to the outside of the cover!
     
  18. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

    Aug 27, 2018
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    sorrry i feel the need to do a myth busters on the voltage thru the case myth as per Snopes ( and yuasa) !
    ORIGINS: Much of what makes a car go remains an arcane mystery to the average person. Automobiles are large and complex, and as any car owner quickly discovers, malfunction of even the smallest and most seemingly unimportant automotive part can be all that it takes to render them inoperative.

    Tidbits of whispered wisdom therefore prove popular among the less than automotively inclined, who look to keep their vehicles running even if they’re not quite sure exactly how to go about that.

    One bit of whispered wisdom dictates that a car’s battery must never be stored on a concrete or cement floor. The reasons given for this prohibition vary depending on whom one hears the admonition from. Acid leaking from the battery will ruin the floor, say some. Or a battery left sitting on such surface will never again properly hold a charge. Or those particular surfaces will cause a battery to lose some of its charge.

    Oddly, the reality behind this peculiar automotive belief somewhat mirrors the long-standing urban legend about a mysterious and seemingly nonsensical cooking practice

    handed down through three generations: just as there was once something to Grandma’s oddball cooking secret, so too was there a time when storing car batteries on concrete or cement floors was a lousy thing to do. However (and again just like the “cooking secret” legend), whereas at one time there was good reason for the practice, those days have long since passed.

    Car batteries used to be encased in hard rubber, a substance that was porous enough that battery acid could seep through it and create a conductive path through the damp concrete, draining the battery. The cases of today’s batteries, however, are made of sturdier stuff that far better contains their contents than those of yesteryear. As well, time has brought technological improvements to the seals around the posts and the vent systems.

    These days, the problem of car battery electrolyte seepage and migration has been all but eliminated. Says battery manufacturer Yuasa, “Nowadays, containers are made from a solid plastic that does not allow any current to flow through it, so the batteries do not discharge, even if they sit in a few inches of water.”

    Interestingly, some experts (including Car Talk’s Click and Clack) believe that storing car batteries on concrete floors might actually be a better idea than keeping them on shelves or other surfaces because the cold of the floor works to slow the self-discharge (leakage) rate.
     
  19. tstuli

    tstuli Rookie

    Jun 12, 2018
    7
    For those who park your cars over the winter how do you handle that? Rather than leaving it on trickle would it not be easier/safer to just disconnect the battery? I’d fear leaving it plugged in due to risks of thunderstorm surges etc.

    No other car I’ve had stored over the winter has had any issues with self discharge as long as I left the battery disconnected.
     
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  20. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 Veteran
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    For cars i keel at home im disconnecting more these days. Only real drawback in the usa is i dont always drive the cars the 150 miles they need to pass state inspection due to obd2


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Virulosity

    Virulosity Karting

    Jun 26, 2017
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    I thought mine had a problem with discharge but it was actually a poorly terminated alternator cable from Ferrari. I would inspect connection to the alternator and see if it looks corroded or broken.
     
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  22. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

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    NO ! a battery must be kept charged or it will suffer and die ! and if you disconnect the battery the alarm won't work either ! ( tho I have a separate battery for a GPS tracking device ) just keep it connected to a good charger that senses voltage /amps and charges when needed ! many available now !
     
  23. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

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    Yes it is said poor electrical connections like a poor ground connection or a positive + cable issue are the culprit most of the time! I have always added extra ground cables to motor block and chassis for most all cars , i've owned ! / raced easy and cheap and works a treat ! will be scoping out the Ferrari wiring set up !
     
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  24. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Rookie
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    This is another well known weak point in the 360. There is a lot of heat load from the exhaust. Add to that the heat from charging the battery after start and the propensity to get loose and you have a recipe for cable damage/failure. There are a number of threads on here about that. Bad grounds are also a well known issue and should be checked during regular maintenance.

    Neil, The problem isn't leakage it is charge migration. Unless Snopes figures out how to make a perfect insulator AND defeat how capacitors work a battery will loose charge. It is really a fairly simple electronics problem.
     
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  25. neil e dale

    neil e dale Karting

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    #25 neil e dale, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
    Well someone was claiming that charge leaks out of cases and now it seems quite evident that old wives tale has been debunked quite handily ! You say it is charge migration ! what does a capacitor have to do w/ a battery ? ( yes i realise a battery is kind of a capacitor ! ) so can you elucidate further on the capacitor issue ? I do want to understand ( am researching for an article about batteries and chargers ) modern batteries do not leak charge i think that's been established ! Modern GOOD AGM batteries will keep a charge and good voltage for months unused ! ( i am testing 4 different makes now ) there must be a heck of a voltage draw fr the Ferrari alarm system ! ( most of my experience w/ Italian wiring was w/ old italian motorcycles - and they had terrible electrical systems ! barely better than the UK lucas electrics =Lucas was the" inventor of darkness "we used to say ! ) LOL regards, Neil
     

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