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why do v12 ferraris depreciate so quickly while v8's do so much better?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by ignacio, Apr 6, 2004.

  1. ignacio

    ignacio Karting

    Feb 25, 2004
    235
    annapolis md
    i had always thought that ferraristi prized the v12 howl above all else.

    i guess those days are gone. yet still i'm very surprised...
     
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  3. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    It depend what V12 you are talking about... The 512TR is still hovering around $100,000, costing more than a 355 which was a later model. (Not the case for, say, 550 vs. 360.) I wonder if at some point the 512 will be more expensive than the 550? I think the answer might be yes, but you never know.

    The simple answer to your question is because they cost more to begin with. So, they have more in absolute value to lose.
     
  4. ignacio

    ignacio Karting

    Feb 25, 2004
    235
    annapolis md
    zjp--

    you are being too facile. compare depreciation on the 360, 355 and 348 to the 550, 575, and 456 in percentage terms. the 512 is too old to use as a point of comparison.

    the 360's have depreciated 10-20% in 3 or 4 years. the 550's have depreciated 40-50% in the same time--the 456 is even worse. why?

     
  5. Sfumato

    Sfumato F1 Veteran

    Nov 1, 2003
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    Angus Podgorney
    I do value 12 above all else...Maranello not very vocal, but that can be fixed. Warranty shorter on 12's, so new buyers tend to dump'em earlier b4 warranty gone, and 12's usually end up in multi-car households, so less miles. More cars on market in 2 years+ lots of low miles cars=great deals for sl used shoppers. I had 360F1 spider, nice car, great steering, top, but just too 'hooligan' for lack of better term. V8's are great cars, but more in the 911 vein of pound the crap out of it every time you drive it. V12's don't demand that, but lawdy, do they reward it :D. I have had 2 eights (308B drysump euro VR, 360f1 sp) and 5 V12's (250swb, 250 spy,daytona, 2 550's) and the current 12 pricing 'softness' leaves me a bit surprised as well. Buy a 12, you won't regret it, plus silly money for 360's makes an 8 similar in price to a 12. Hmmmm.
    FWIW
    Lee
     
  6. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
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    Cost of maintainance is a hudge factor here aswell. Many people in the used F-car market can't afford to buy a brand new car(obvioulsy) and the cost of up keep keep many people away.

    Just to give you a quick example. I have a 457GTA in the shop right now for an over heat of the catalyitic converters. I pulled the intake to have alook at the intake ports to investigate which cylinder is causeing the problem. Turns out that cylinder #1 has a leaking injector. I priced the injector's from Ferrari. Do you realize that each injector is almost a thousand dollars? This would mean that if all the injectors turned out to be bad, the from Ferrari price just for the parts would be close to 12k!! That just plain nuts.

    The cost to repair an out of warrenty 12 cylinder Ferrari is very expensive. These cars are what seperate the men from the boys.
     
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  8. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Maintenance may be a consideration but it's all expensive. Are you going to decide which $100,000 + car you are going to buy based on that? It may certainly contribute though, so good observation.

    BUT,
    Why shouldn't the 512 be considered? I think therein lies your answer.

    - I think a lot of Ferrari buyers want a mid-engined car. So, if they want it to be a modern one, there's going to be more demand for 360 than 550 or 456. 512 is keeping it's value more because of its styling and mid-engine layout.
    Honestly, I think that's one of the main reasons.
     
  9. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
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    I think the factors which contribute to why the 512TR and 512M hold their value so well are:

    1. last cars produced with the Testarossa shape,

    2. still fairly recent cars with updated bodywork and interior, unlike the original 80's Testarossa

    3 mid engined V12 layout, no longer available
     
  10. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    Franklin E. Parker
    From my approximately 15 years of owning Ferraris, 2 v8s, 2 V12s and 2 flat12s, I believe the reason that the 550/575 models tend to depreciate faster than the 360 has intially is due to who is now buying the new cars. Old school Ferrari enthusiast are not buying new Ferraris much anymore. The new Ferrari buyer is much younger than before and probably wasn't even alive when the Daytona or 275 were new cars. They are part of the MagnumPI generation who thinks 308 when someone speaks of a classic Ferrari. So to those folks, a mid-engined v8 is what a Ferrari is supposed to be. Old farts like me remember the 250s, 275s,330s,365s and Boxers of the old days and think that if it is a real Ferrari, it must have 12 cylinders. But, as time creeps on I believe one will see the 550s/575s bottom out at a figure higher than the 360s. Numbers alone favor that senerio as they are making many more 360s that 550s/575s. Plus, the old school enthusiast will start buying the 550s/575s once their price dips below $100k increasing demand. I am old enough to remember when a 308 cost more to buy that a Daytona! In 10 years IMHO the price difference between a 360 and a 550/575 will be like the price difference between a 328 and a Daytona is today.
     
  11. MadMaxx

    MadMaxx Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    105

    I grew up in that era, but hold the 550 above the 360 :)

    MM
     
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  13. W00dEar

    W00dEar F1 Rookie
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    Call me crazy, but maybe it is the car not the engine in it? At least that's one factor?

    I mean for me, I LOVE the look of 355 and 360, 550 doesn't do it for me at all, and 456? ahem, I won't even comment. 550 is just too heavy to be a tossable sports car, it is a GT, which 355/360 is more dynamic and sporty, so many might like 355/360 over 550.

    I know for myself, if I were to drop 120k on a used one, it must be a 360, not a 550.
    As for engine, V12 isn't really issue for me, bigger is better, more hp is better. I will take a V12 360 over a V8 360, but I will not take 550 over 360.

    If that makes any sense :)
     
  14. scycle2020

    scycle2020 F1 Rookie

    Jan 26, 2004
    3,458
    potomac
    well put!!
     
  15. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the 550/575 looks MUCH BETTER that the 360 ! If someone were to give me a new 360, I would sell it and use the money to buy a used 550 or 575. But, I agree that the 550/575 is a GT. But, isn't that what most people want and/or need. How many miles do you suppose the average 360 is really driven on the track? If you want a track car, you can do much better for a lot less than a 360 anyway. Think Lotus, BMW, Porsche and many other cars that will run away from a 360 at the track. But, there are few cars that are better GTs than the 550/575 models.
     
  16. MadMaxx

    MadMaxx Karting

    Nov 5, 2003
    105
    I guess I'm more into the GT cars. I like Vipers, 550s and Lambos. All of them are big heavy cars :) Lotus is a blast, but I love the feeling of having my head being planted in the head rests when I hit the loud pedal.


    After looking at both the 550/360... the 550 felt more "complete" to me. Don't get me wrong, both are beautiful... but the 550 is more my kind of car I think. Everyone has their own tastes :)


    MM
     
  17. shelbee

    shelbee Guest

    Perhaps most of V8 owners, they have only one F-car or they are first time F-car owner.

    V12 owners: either they have another F-cars, or had an experience with V8 or less powerful one before.
     
  18. coachi

    coachi Formula 3

    May 1, 2002
    2,108
    SC USA
    Truthfully, the older generation does indeed think of a Ferrari as a 12. When I was in the market for another Ferrari, I bought a 550, didn't even consider the 360.
    My collection includes 5 12's and 1-8. Guess which one I am trying to sell?
     
  19. W00dEar

    W00dEar F1 Rookie
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    360 is a GT car also, not a track car, maybe the CS is meant to be the track version of the 360. Like some people, I like my daily ride also to be a dynamic sporty car, not a heavy plush luxury cruiser, that's why I drive a E46 M3 daily, instead of a E class benz.

    And with your theory, if you want a GT car, you can do much better for a lot less than a 550 anyway.
     
  20. ignacio

    ignacio Karting

    Feb 25, 2004
    235
    annapolis md
    it is fascinating that most replies to this thread continue to extoll the values of 550/575 v12's, yet the marketplace clearly values these lower production, more expensive vehicles less than 360's and even 355's. perhaps the mid engine design is a factor, given the continued popularity of the old 512's.

    i doubt service costs are significant factor since all ferraris are outrageous in their service and maintenance requirements.
     
  21. parkerfe

    parkerfe F1 World Champ

    Sep 4, 2001
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    So far the people who own or have owned both a v8 and a 12 cylinder Ferrari prefer the 12 over the 8. So people who seem to prefer the 8 have no way to really compare the two.
     
  22. Jimmy540i

    Jimmy540i Formula 3
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    could it be more people like "Mid-Engine" Vs. "Front Engine"?
     
  23. bobbyd

    bobbyd Formula Junior

    Nov 17, 2003
    721
    Many people, when they consider a Ferrari, look for what is in their eyes an exotic, high tech sports car. That is the reason why the 360 is more sought after than the Maranello. It looks more exotic, sounds more exotic, is more nimble and exciting to drive, and overall more different than other cars than the front engined V12 GT cars. Furthermore, there are cars such as the BMW M5, Audi RS6, Mercedes E55 and others that are front engined high powered cars that are cheap to buy and maintain, and provide 85% of the performance of the ultra high priced GT's such as the Maranello. Granted, these other cars do not have the looks or charisma of a Ferrari, but they still provide a lot of performance and style in a practical package.

    The bottom line is, there are many more buyers for a Ferrari with both high performance AND an exotic, extreme sport character than there are for a more conventional, heavier, front engined GT. Too many other competing, less costly alternatives in the latter category to expect values to stay near or above $200K.
     
  24. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    47,696
    Texas!
    Well, let's try to put some reality into this discussion (I know, I know, it is foolish of me to even attempt this, but...)

    I hope you can line up the columns better than I can, but here some numbers for you to ponder

    MSRP-From FCA Web page
    FML$- Current FML asking price
    DISCT- Standard discount for getting prices
    Current- FML$ x DISCT
    % of MSRP-Current value / MSRP

    .......................MSRP.... FML$... DISCT Current % of MSRP
    1989 TR........ 122,700.... 69,931 90% 62,938..... 57%
    1989 328 GTS.. 78,900.... 54,512 90% 49,061..... 69%

    1994 512TR... 195,750.... 100,183 90% 90,165..... 51%
    1995 348 TS... 117,300.... 56,585 90% 50,927..... 48%

    1998 Maranello 204,000... 141,556 90% 127,400..... 69%
    1998 355 Spider 138,115.. 110,752 90% 99,677..... 80%


    This last set of numbers measures the percentage price spread based on dollars between the V8s and V12s new and current.

    ...................Then Now
    1989 TR........ 36% 22%
    1989 328 GTS

    1994 512TR... 40% 44%
    1995 348 TS

    1998 Maranello 32% 22%
    1998 355 Spider

    (Man, I wish there was an easier way to do columns.)

    Don't know can be made of this, except to say that it looks like the market places a higher $ per grins value on Frank's Dinos than my real Ferrari, with the exception of the 512TR.

    Your turn.
     
  25. W00dEar

    W00dEar F1 Rookie
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    Exactly!
    Also, the market value of a new 360 can easily go 200 and a quarter, which is almost the same as a new 550/575 anyway. It is pure supply and demand, more ppl want the 360.
     
  26. TigerAce

    TigerAce Formula 3

    May 29, 2003
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    Yoshi Ace
    Dr. Tax
    Most of figures you listed, I have seen in the market. 94 512TR is listed over $110K though. I have seen below $95K for 92 512TR. These fact makes difference in % of your figures.

    I have put a thread on the same subject before, and based on what I gathered, popularity dictates depreciation, of course, and among 12 cylinders, 512TR/M seems to be most popular. As a car, I think 550 is more of a car than 512TR/M, IMO.

    I just wish there is a car w/ a look of 512TR/M w/ 550's interior (tech.)
     
  27. Auraraptor

    Auraraptor F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Sep 25, 2002
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    Yoshi, I agree.....oh if the 512m had a modern 6spd with the 550's dash...can you say, perfection?
     
  28. JBsZ06

    JBsZ06 Formula Junior

    Dec 6, 2003
    759
    Mid engine 360 is more racing car for the street than the more mature 550/575 and thats what the buying public for the most part is buying when they buy ferrari..

    Both great cars ...
     

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