Why does Ferrari still use cambelts?

You are still comparing apples to oranges. They are different cars with different parts, parts suppliers, and engineers. They live different lives on average and when in use undergo different stresses.

We can, we will, and we have debated it ad naseum. You (everyone) can blame Ferrari's service interval on your favorite boogie man. The facts at the end of the day will remain the same. Ferrari belts often do outlive the service interval by very large margins, sometimes they do not. The Surgeon General says if you smoke cigarettes you can get cancer. Many smokers never will. Pay your money and take your chances. Ferrari warned you, the Surgeon General warned you.

 

I don't think the big problem is the service life of the belt, but rather the expense to change them.
If changing them was a $100 job, no one would be complaining.

 

You are correct and Ferrari's uncompromising design philosophy is the reason they are famous and people desire to own one. It is also a reason the service costs are high. It is a conundrum many are incapable of coping with.

 

Bah!

What color should the front fender louvers be??? Body color or black???


*screeeeech.....CRASH!*

Oh, never mind......put some new belts and tensioners on that thing........then we can move on to sodium valves.....

 

The original Ferrari V8 was designed for transverse mounting, so cambelt changes weren't that big of a deal...the engine didn't need to come out.

But from the 348 onwards it became a more difficult job. And so the cambelt changes became more of an issue.

The new Ferraris have gone back to chains for this very reason IMHO.

Just be thankful you don't have a Maserati V8 with cambelts AND chains!

 

My point exactly, NEW factual info on this topic would be great, but there not been much relevant new info & and far too much repetitive speculation.

asiabond,
A $0.05 summary of the facts:

The general consensus that has emerged over the years is:
Whenever rubber is constantly being used, the constant flexing tends to keep it flexible & unlikely to develop large cracks. When it sets in one position for long periods of time, then is flexed, it tends to develop relatively large cracks. Oxidation tends to exacerbate the hardening process. The cracks in the rubber let it flex more at those points, thus putting more stress on the reinforcing cords.

High temperatures & hard usage such as tracking the car accelerate the oxidation effects & add more operating stress, thus shortening belt life.

The most common belt failure modes are sheared teeth. Next is a break where enough cords eventually failed so that the remaining ones couldn't take the load & failed.

For years, Gates has recommended changing timing belts at least every 5 years.

A serious technical investigation into the 3x8 belt system design was recently done by smg2. Most of the results are in these 2 threads:
Update: Adjustable cam pulley
[\b]
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91286
Adjustable Pulley pt2 a new belt design...
[\b]
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92021

From discussions with Gates design support & other sources such as DAYCO he learned that the Belts Ferrari used on the 3x8s are premium material belts, and are being operated well within their bend limits.

However, the 3x8 trapezoidal tooth design, while state of the art in it's day, has been almost universally superceded by a rounded tooth design that provides much longer belt life due to both less flexing of the belt, and a more uniform distribution of stress along the side of the teeth.

 

I don't know about Honda but when a Ferrari belt lets go it smells like money.

There it is.

 

True, we'd be changing them at every oil change if so.

 

The ultimate solution would be to run one bank with a belt and the other bank with a chain.

Or run both belts and chains. Chains on the front, belts on the rear. Or the other way around.

 

There were 31 threads that include something about interference engines but even the most specific one didn't specifically say whether or not all or which engines are interference, and whether it is possible to convert to chain drive. And I know some folks on here can say definitively, or should be able to without too much obfuscation.

Just wondering as I might consider say a 355 instead of a Maserati Coupe if I could do the conversion, if it is even necessary. Even though newer has its advantages.

Sorry about hi-jacking the thread, but I really am interested in the possibilities.

 

I dont believe Ferrari ever built an engine that wasnt an interference engine. They will all crash hard if they go badly out of time. Race engines are built that war to make HP. Ferrari builds you a road car with the latest F1 technology, within reason, and that is why people want them. Perhaps you want a Ferrari for looks with an Olds Toronado driveline for 0 maintainence. I dont. Ferrari is about the engine, the engine is about performance, performance is about tight engines with close tolerances.

From what I have deduced, Ferrari was forced to adopt a longer belt change interval because of US EPA regulations that a car be warranted to run 50K miles. What they gonna do? Then many come here to complain about this service (look at Verells list of threads!) until Ferrari says screw it, we'll run silly chains again. Its not a performance change IMO, far from it. But many of you got what you wanted. I just think its a sad day when the last best supercar builder bends to public pressure of maintainence over performance.

For a first timer wrenching on thier own car, most everyone can get the motor out of any car, Ferrari included, in a day. After 30 K miles or 5 years it will be a dirty filthy beast. If you take a few weeks (taking your time) to clean it thoroughly, adjust everything, re-gasket and re-seal it, new belts, clean the engine compartment, new hoses, clamps, whatever it needs. You will have a sense of pride, and a sense of confidence in the machine that cannot be imagined. My 16 year old step son, who knew nothing of mechanics and has no real mechanical aptitude, removed, overhauled, and re-installed the engine in a Mazda MX-6. I would say its equally complicated in many ways to anything out there, Ferrari included. Yeah, I watched over him, guided him, forced him to read a manual. But he did it. And if he can do it, there is not one person on this forum who is incapable.

 

When I went shopping for a truck last year, I read the sales pamphlet for the truck and remarked at how Toyota had changed back to timing chains. The salesman stated that Toyota's full product line had gone back to timing chains 2-3 years prior.
He seemed knowledgable.

Are you sure Toyota vehicles are still using Belts?

My Maserati and Ferraris use timing chains and have been very reliable.
The Maser v* on my car has only chains (double and triple roller), no cambelts, but I'll bet you were referring to modern Maseratis.


BTW, years ago I did have a Toyota Supra that snapped a rubber timing belt at the 50k Mile mark, but there was no intereference overlap so no valves got banged.

 

With all due respect, not all of us have someone to watch and guide over us as we work. I am assuming that you did all that for him free of charge, how many people do you know is willing to do that for free on their own free time?

 

With all due respect, I really didnt guide him much, unless you call pushing a book in front of him guidance. I also layed down ground rules for using my tools. Its amazing how fast a young boy can start learning when his only set of wheels has a rod knock and no one steps up to buy him yet another car. He got grease all over himself, antifreeze, oil, dirt, and I just sat and smiled. All you guys can read, so one can only assume you can understand what you read, so one would assume you can read and understand a service manual.

In almost 10 years of reading internet web sites and forums specific to Ferrari, as well as other Marques, I have been amazed at the number of people with no mechanical background who never hardly held a wrench in thier hand before, go out and tackle a large job on something like a 308, or a 348. Its just nuts and washers, really, as Ferrari uses very few bolts, but lots of studs. Lots of nuts. And screws, they like lots of screws too.

When I was 16, and was fortunate enough to own a 72 MGB/GT, I learned very fast that just no shop anywhere around was competent to work on it. There certainly was no where I could turn for carb work, just to simply tune the darn thing. I was FORCED to either learn to do it myself, or suffer with a poor running car. I studied a Haynes manual for hours and hours, days actually, trying to "get it", over and over until I gained the courage. But once I got in there with a screwdriver and some wrenches, it was nothing.

Your all just afraid of messing something up or getting dirty or maybe wrecking your fingernails, but really, your odds of doing any serious damage are slim to nil if you use basic common sense and dont force anything to hard. Its not like your performing open heart surgery and the patient is going to die. Its a freaking car for Gods sake, how bad can you kill it? I can think of only two major things that could mess a guy up. Turning the engine over without the valves in time and thereby bending valves, but, you would have to put quite a bit of torque into the crank to flip it past a open valve. Just make sure you dont do that. The other fear is dropping something into the engine. Dont do that either. Now go out there and wrench on it. And as far as guidance, you have this whole darn forum of people to ask questions of and show pictures. Lots more than ever existed back in those MGB days thats for sure.

 

I've got a Haynes manual (or Clymers) for almost all the cars in my 'family'.

the early Haynes manuals were very good , well written with a practical frame
of mind.

the later Haynes manuals are not so good.

are there any service manuals like Haynes/Clymers for Ferraris ?

cheers.

 

This is a great post. I'm a bit older than 16...I was 41 when I bought my Europa and I had ZERO car mechanical knowledge. None. After suffuring through incompetent mechanics I also was FORCED to learn to do things myself, and at first I was scared to tackle even simple stuff. I remember being nervous about even some as simple as replacing the ignition wires!

Luckily there's a Europa Yahoo group with guys as helpful as the bunch here, and I gradually got more confidence. These days, if anything goes wrong with the car, instead of panicking, I amaze myself at how I can calmy sit down, figure out the problem and fix it. My car hasn't seen a mechanic in 2+ years. Granted it's a simple car, but not all that different than a carb Ferrari.

Anyone who wants to learn to fix their own car can if I can. I have more confidence overall in my car because I know how it works. So I don't think anyone should feel like they can't learn to fix their car.

There is one really important key: GET GOOD TOOLS, AND THE RIGHT TOOLS. I've invested a lot of money in tools, and that makes life SO much easier. Don't scrape by with adjustable wrenches, no torque wrench, cheap screwdrivers, etc. Get the right stuff. Get jack stands and a floor jack. If you can manage a lift, it's the best investment you can make.

Ken

 

Sorry, but this is a Ferrari, not a Chevvy. ;^)

Just cryptic factory WSMs & FPCs that assume the user if factory trained.

However, all is not lost, there 's a wealth of guidance in the Fchat archives... If you can't find it there, just ask. Of course, like any other source of free advise, you'll occasionally have to filter differing opinions.

 

These are two great and important points. Yes, I believe anyone with basic grade school level knowledge can work on a car. That may sound simplistic, but its the truth. At least at the basic mechanical level, there is nothing on a car that would surpass a 6th or seventh grade level IOWA basic skills test. Getting into complex electrical problems or fuel injection systems would require some higher skill level, but nothing anyone here couldnt figure out if they "wanted" to. I know it "looks" complicated, but really its not that bad. Take apart a junk lawn mower engine and put it back together, you'll learn quite a bit by the time your done. Better yet, find a old twin cam motor from a junk yard, like a Fiat to take apart and re-assemble, and youll know a LOT!

And on tools, I started out buying everything from Sears, all Craftsman wrenches. I wont buy anything more from them. Some of the cheap chinese wrenches sold at WalMart are probably at least as strong, and have thinner box ends for better clearance. Also, over the last few years Sears has totally forgotten how to make a ratchet that will last more than a few days of use. I have a couple Channellock and Truecraft ratchets that are far superior and cost next to nothing. But there is no knocking Snap-On wrenches, best stuff I own. For the price of one major car service at a dealer, you could own a lift and a decent full set of tools, and probably still afford all the parts you'll need.

 

so true!, unless your going for a standup 20dr cabinet and tools, well then it's the cost of the 308
i was fortunate, when my dad pased away a few yrs back i inherated his full tool inventory, something like 150k in tools. i have no excuses now!

if i recal wasn't there a thread yrs ago on the various makers of tools and the cross over of who makes what? might be thinking of another board, i'll see if i can dig it up.

 

there are manuals for Porsches.

whats the difference?

certainly not that F-cars are quicker , more reliable or engineered better.

 

I learned to wrench starting at age 14 back in the mid '70s. Back then cars were simpler, as far as electronics go, but for mechanical stuff, it's still the same. Anybody clever enough to afford a Ferrari is clever enough to learn how to be a mechanic. It ain't rocket science, and I should know: my degree is from the department of mechanical and aerospace engineering and included a course on rocket engine design! If you're worried about wrecking your Ferrari, get an old piece of junk and learn on that. But owning a maintenance-intensive car like a Ferrari means either you have LOTS of money or you know at least a little about cars. And you don't have to be able to diagnose a failed condensor these days....

Starting with a Europa, dude, you are one brave mofo! I am sure you know why the English drink warm beer:

LUCAS REFRIGERATORS!

 

LOL, well, the Europa lives up to it's reputation for unreliability, but that's mainly because people didn't do their own wrenching and maintainence piled up on them until the car became a mess. But it's a GREAT starter sports car. It's pretty simple overall, easy to work on and cheap! Parts are easy to get (most of them anyway) and also not expensive. Most is off the shelf stuff. It's a DOHC engine with a chain drive, so you skip all the belt stuff while getting that great sound and decent power since it's so light.

Once you get ahead of the curve, it's a reliable car. It's not fragile. It looks cool and under 100MPH gives the same or BETTER driving experience as any old Ferrari. It will out corner any 3*8 series car until the HP catches up. Of course it lacks the sophistication and "bling" of a Ferrari, is smellier and less comfortable. It's much more a real race car. Best yet, even if you screw up something big, you're not out a ton of money.

Ken