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Why I hate McLaren

Discussion in 'British' started by Igor Ound, May 14, 2019.

  1. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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  3. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    Boxerman is clearly teasing everyone with his Mclaren Comments.
     
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  4. Jo Sta7

    Jo Sta7 F1 Rookie
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    Sale leasebacks aren't a bad idea though. Mclaren shouldn't be in the real estate game, they should be in the car making game. Given their struggles, however, this seems like a last ditch effort to stave off insolvency.
     
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  5. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Yes I'd agree had they not built the HQ themselves. Now they are cornered and potential buyers know that as you said this sounds like a last effort and this gives them an edge to negotiate.

    I'm surprised they are in that much trouble.

    Anyone know if they are doing bad in the US and China?
     
  6. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Yeah but you dont like Maclaren so its hard to have a balanced conversation.
    Weve got fanboys on one end and you on the other.
    Im actualy interested in rational dialogue.

    Whats the Tq of the 600lt compared to the maserati, and price.
    Weight is everything for real performance.

    The financial problems at Maclaren, all small auotmakers have those problems.
    It is a bold effort to go from being an F1 team to exotic car manufacturer. Even Ferrari had to hookup with Fiat to make it work. Maserati went bankrupt and is a Fiat resurected brand with no real linkage to the past. Actualy Masearti went in more than once. Lambo part of audi. Porche could not have survived without VW and rebadged Vw SUV's.

    Given the limit of their resources Maclren did well. IMo they woudl have been better staying a boutique manufactuerer making something seminal like the F1 again or T50 establishing their cred and then moving towards volume downmarket.
    Was a the track today and there were far more Maclarens than ferraris. Still anyone who approved the 720 front end needs their head read. You dont make an ugly exotic. The rest of the car looks pretty cool.

    If they go bankrupt maybe we can get some of their cars real inexpensive.
     
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  8. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

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    It makes no sense. NBA teams sell for multiple of billions and only serve as a trophy asset for the owner. Why are there not billionaires wanting to buy McLaren as a trophy asset even if profit margins are 0 or even a little negative...it would be like owning an F1 team on steroids as now you have a sports car manufacturer and you can drive the prototype to dinner and your own F1 team paddock years before the first one is sold...
     
  9. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    Pretty sure the manoeuvres we’re seeing now are there just to cover interests on previous much larger loans. I think starting from scratch would be a much cheaper option.
     
  10. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    If you can only have a balanced conversation with people who love mclarens then I’m afraid I’m not your man. I am cursed to hate them from this thread title that was imposed on me...
    In any case not interested in which car you believe is better between the Maser and the 570, sales will decide that.
    Much more interested in hearing opinions on where it went all wrong for Mclaren. Could they have succeeded at all? They sure continuously fell short of their ambitions, from the very start
     
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  11. sp1der

    sp1der Formula 3
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    The reality is Mclaren are in a desperate situation, saddled with huge debt its hard to see how they rectify this. Aston Martin also in the same predicament but they may have salvation in terms of the DBX.
     
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  13. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Youre the one who posited the Masser was better than the 570. Also the 570 is one of a family of models.

    As I said it went wrong for Maclaren is that they shoudl have started at the top and built cred. Ie anotehr F1 or T50 type car and then democratized that tech and platform down into the 300k range. Takign on ferrari in the 458-F8 range is like someone new trying to compete with a 911. Youre going afetr apriducta nd market place thats is honed to extremis and all your faults will be glaring by comparison. The solution Maclren took then was to be "faster" ie more hp and alittle more acceleration. Theyc ould have built brilliant usp cars with more mdoest sales goals and built their brand from there.

    It went wrong because they were overly focussed on objective stats not the subjective of driving the car(mp12). The dynamics of the cars are overly computer dirven leading to a somewhat numb experience except for velocity. They are cars built by engineers and missing that artistic flair in evruything form styling to dynamics to motor sound and smoothnes. They failed to capitalize on the Cf tub, they didnt make a car that played to its advantges.

    The styling remains a question mark, 720 is brillaint except for the front end which is hideous. The motor may put out power but a toyota V6 with a great muffler is smoother and more tuneful.

    In other words they missed on the subjective factors which is odd because the F1 while it had the perfomance was all about the subjective experience.

    Plus its virtualy impossible to start a sports car company, only pagani seems to have succeeded and thats a niche within a niche boutique not a volume prodiucer..Aston is faltering too.

    Ron Dennis may have been able to put it togetehr, but his ego couldnt come up with a car, they shoudl have hired Murray to design their sportscar as he has cachet..
    The P1 was waste of time and money.
    Still any sportscar company that starts form scratch and sells 2K+ exotics per year is by one measure a sucess. They just lack the resources and concurrent vision to go the long haul. The new 570 repacement is going to be heavier due to electrification so theres that usp lost.
     
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  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    They may find themselvs on the auction block like aston. A large firm may buy them as happened with lotus. They have a road car brand now and a following.
    At the track yesterday there was one pista going slow in the poseur run group and a 488 Challenge moving fast. There was a570- Gt4 and 3 or 4 720's plus a senna. With those that can afford it Macklaren has a serious following.

    What they need or needed was a way to make 2k supercars per year work financialy, plus some cars in the 100-150k range for some volume. Theyre fishign exculsively in the F8 pond with what are essentialy variants of one car and theres not enough volume there for them to survive.
     
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  15. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    #187 Igor Ound, Sep 12, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
    Dennis’ obsession at going big against Ferrari straight away was a big mistake for sure. They could have definitely started in much smaller numbers and become a Koenigsegg by another name, then grow organically from there.

    But man, would it have cost them much to make the cars a little prettier?

    Astons at least have that, they’re gorgeous
     
  16. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I agree they shoudl have grown organicaly of a true halo product. Koningsegg is not a serious car other than to pose so thats not a good example for me.
    They bshould have hired Murray to make the next F1 which woudl have been seminal, then with their cred they could have taken their virtues of being drivers cars to various segments. Look at the sucess of the new Alpine.

    Ferrai are "better" than maclkaren, but theyre pretty far away from being viceral drivers cars too.

    What ferrai and Maclren make, what Aston makes are really fast Gt cars that are somewhat numb at road attainable speeds.

    The F1 the new Alpine, a Lotus Elise, The Zonda are all cars that work on road and track and are fun and viceral at all speeds. None of them are overly computer driven for objective numbers. Tech is used to enhance the driving experience not chase numbers on paper and there is an obsession with weight. That was a usp maclren had and thats a space in the market they could have shined instead of trying to outdo the handbag for men that ferrari has become.

    That clever fast viceral drivers car a space Maclren owned, thats the space the F1 laid down for them. I know its what i was hoping for.

    Even Lotus under chinese ownership is going to abandon that space and make yet another supercar Gt.And in that supercar Gt space the vette will probably lay down the gauntlet for 1/3 the price. So whats a supercar today, an affirmation of sucess for the owner? hey look at me arrive at the party reteraunt etc. Its a crowded field even mercedes and audi now do that. Exotic styling supercars have(the vette wont have that)
     
  17. Gh21631

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    1) The 720 front end as well as the rest of the car to many of us looks fantastic but this is a subjective thing.
    2) McLaren put a huge dent in Ferrari sales, their numbers have been very impressive the last few years. They were selling over 4k cars per year not 2K.
    3) Where they faltered IMO is by building cars and sending them to dealers that weren't ordered. Dealers sat on them and were faced to discount which drove the 2nd hand pricing down far enough that it made more sense to buy used. Whats interesting is that Ferrari has recently (last 2 years) done the same. Most dealers are sitting on brand new Portofinos, 812s and/or Lusso's. Pretty soon there will be F8s sitting in the back as well. With Ferrari however they dont advertise the new cars and rather than discount they will give you a big number on a trade.
    4) Lets not talk about weight of the Mclaren cars, they are the lightest of all the exotics out there even if electrified I am sure this will be the case.
    5) From a quality of build standpoint I think we can all agree that both Mclaren and Ferrari have their issues. Ferrari being in the business for many more years definitely has the upper hand however I am still taken back by some of the shortcuts they take on $400K cars. Everything from battery issues, brake failures, electrical, sticky buttons, panel alignment, etc. I happen to own a shop where we do restyling and performance upgrades on mostly exotics. We pull these cars apart regularly, I can tell you that Lamborghini and Porsche are the best of the bunch.

    I cant speak for the 570 but the 600LT, 600R and 720 are epic cars to drive. They do everything very well. These are cars that you can take on a date, 300 mile cruise or the track. The 765LT will set new standards and I bet it will eat the SF90's lunch on a track. Possibly in a straight line as well.

    If I ran Mclaren, I would take a few steps backs and scale down production and staff. I would work on getting a better dealer network and more trained techs. I would also increase the length of the cars warranty and build in routine service. Many people are interested in their cars but may not have a local dealer or service facility. This would also help the 2nd hand market. If they want to be viable in the long term major changes need to take place. I think they are leaving a lot of money on the table in other areas as well but that is for another discussion.
     
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  18. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I agree with you on the parts I requoted above.

    Looks may be subjective is a tired arguement, theres also good looks and bad looks. The rpoevious astomn vantage is universaly prasied as a great design the current one is clearly not. The front end of the 720 may serve a function but its fugly, thats hurt sales esp as the rest of the car is so stunning.Styling is part of appeal. Well guess unless you're subaru.

    A car to take on a date and cruise 300 miles is a Gt car, by defintion its compromised in other areas..
    Comparison to the SF90 is pointless, that car is imo a waste of space, truley the wrong way to go a 4000lbs overpowered Gt car.

    600lt is great, but why does it have to go to the dealer to maintain warrantly if you track it. Ie they dont really want you to track it, or they dotn trust their won mechanicals or theyre just ripping clients off?

    Maclrens are light, but these days so is the F8. Light going forwards means under 3000lbs wet, the 570 repacement is gaining weigth.
     
  19. INRange

    INRange F1 Rookie
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    How about Musk picking up McLaren and Aston for chump change? With his all-electric drivetrain he could transform both companies by leveraging his technology and have a channel for high end styling/performance which Tesla does not have. He could easily do a stock deal with the debt holders and really shake things up.
     
  20. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Well I disagree with you, when I first saw a 720 coupe I had to have one. Ended buying a spider as well and now have a 765 on its way. Many others feel the same.

    Compromised how? A 720 is road car that is equally as good on a track with the right tires. If you select the track setting it really tightens up and there are softer settings for the road. Is it the best track car? Of course not but certainly as good or better than its competitors. I made several road trips in my 720's and they were a joy to drive on the road as well.

    No different than any other marque. The mnfr's want the dealers to benefit and in fact the dealers are the only ones with the appropriate software for diagnostics. You couldn't be more wrong. In mtg with McLaren reps they absolutely want you to track it.

    The F8 is not that light and if you have any experience you know better than to trust Ferrari's weight figures. I dont have the spec's on the 570 replacement so we will have to wait and see.
     
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  21. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    That would be interesting but I doubt it happens.
     
  22. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

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    He sure has history with the brand already...

     
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  23. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

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    If McLaren goes under, I hope someone carries/buys the baton otherwise there will be a lot of overpriced bricks on wheels...the amount of tech in these cars would make it impossible for any indie to service/maintain them, prices will surely implode too...
     
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  24. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    I would love to run McLaren. It's the only job I would take at this point in my life.
     
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  25. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Went to the dealer today. Have to say the 765 LT or whatever it’s called is seriously cool. Far ore purposes full than a F8.

    the way the made the front end more aggressive works better.

    between a F8 and. 765 I’d take the maclaren but wish the 765 has a pista like motor.
     
  26. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    Considering you have never driven a 765 how could you make such an assertion? Guessing? I have a Pista and will be able to compare firsthand but wouldn't dare until Ive had enough seat time.
     
  27. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I wasn’t comparing to a pista
    A f8’is a softer car and to me far less interesting looking.

    I’m basing on subjective impressions relating to styling and spec, as swell as extrapolations naesd on cars with the same architecture I have driven.

    to whit,
    I am assuming the 765 motor is no smother than all the other maclaren v8s just more powerful. As I’ve driven a mp12 570 and 570gt4 and ridden in a senna plus heard 720 blare by on Track, none of which sounded or felt markedly different to the other save the power and given that its more or less the same motor and architecture I dont think the 765 will be more tuneful or smooth.

    the f8 is a traditional metal car and to
    Me pretty uninteresting looking.i thought the 458 was art, the 488 looked like someone had loped the ears off a handsome face and the pista just had a raw aggression that made it come together. The f8 front reminds me of something from japan and the rear is overwrought without being especialy pretty.

    My comments were also based on styling
    Cockpit and execution
    The mclaren is more purposeful in
    concept and execution and that is where I palace value.
    Comparing a pista to a 765 yes a drive would be the deCiding factor.

    given I have 488 seat time and that the pista/f8 motor is reported to be better But the same architecture I think it would be superior to the maclaren in terms of sound and smoothness. Pista sound I’ve heard at full chat going by.
    The power differences between the maclaren and f8 are academic other than to bench racers.

    what’s appealing about the maclaren execution is the way the seats are centered towards the middle, I love the doors and glass too. It looks forwards whereas the Ferrari does not. I never liked the 720 face but the 764 adds a degree of raw purposeful ness which it carries cause all those aero bits are not about beauty in any car so it pulls the 765 front end together.

    I guess the 765 more my type of machine. On a subjective basis it made all the rest look subdued old and boring. It’s also clearly not a gt type car for court which the f8 and 729 are. As you know I. Also a 600lt fan for similar reasons.to
    Me on styling and paint job alone the 620 was trying too hard.
     
  28. jimmyb

    jimmyb Formula Junior

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    Well...this was entertaining...
    Lots of opinions delivered as FACTS, per usual.
     
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