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Why is F1 so afraid of engine manufacturers leaving

Discussion in 'F1' started by Bas Jaski, Jun 9, 2015.

  1. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    As above.

    Bernie claims that the only team/company who doesn't want the rules changed is Mercedes/Daimler. I'm sure they have signed the concorde agreement so the team can't suddenly pack up and leave...

    So lets say F1 engines are simplified. 2.5 V10 with direct injection, capped at 19000 RPM, 8 units a year, cost capped at say €300k per engine. Add in a bolt on (K)ERS system, with a large battery so that like now, more power can be used for a longer period of time.

    We know there are several KERS manufacturers, several independent engine shops who could be interested in (a return to) F1 (Cosworth for example).

    Renault is still interested in F1, since they're looking to buy a team. They would do anything for a new engine formula. Honda not having much success either and would they really pack up after a season? I highly doubt it. We know Ferrari is game.

    If Mercedes stick to their guns and don't want to participate with a new engine, then that means no V10 from Mercedes. I'm pretty damn sure they can't just let their team sit there due to the concorde agreement...hell, it would be a pretty good buy for Honda or Renault if they're selling!

    Sticking to the no Merc V10 engine, that leaves a bunch of teams (Williams, Force India, Lotus, Mercedes) without an engine...Renault/Honda (and Cosworth, if they would return) could recoup a sizable investment by selling engines to new teams.



    -------

    So would it be so bad if Mercedes ''leaves''? I think not. Only a tiny percentage of F1 fans like the current engine formula. Stick them on a race track, let a V10 drive past, then a GP2 car, then a current car...their opinion will change for almost all of them.
     
  2. tervuren

    tervuren Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2006
    2,459
    Changing the format will create a new skyrocket of costs as there is significant $$$ in developing these engines.

    Ride the format out the expected time period, and you keep costs from sky rocketting with a new format again.

    Losing engine manufacturers will continue to want change until they make the winning engine, then they will resist changes, and the others will want change.

    F1 stuck itself in deep with this format, it needs to ride it out the planned interval, then make changes.
     
  3. itschris

    itschris Formula 3

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    FIA simply fail at understanding the issues in their own sport. So they've locked down engine development in 2016 eliminating the loophole. So once again... the first race will decide the pecking order for the rest of the year since no one can develop their PU's. How silly is that? Just looking at this year, it's the only thing that's made this season somewhat palatable... the idea that Ferrari, RB, Williams, can actually modify things and be competitive.

    Why would Renault stay? What if Honda can't fix their woes by the Feb when things are locked down... so you're just going to tell teams, drivers, and fans... Hey sorry.. McLaren has no hope of even being in the top 10 again...guaranteed by the rules. What's the point of even watching?

    Horner is right that these decision should not be in the hands of the teams. Unless Merc looks past it's self-interest they can bust the vote to overhaul anything that make F1 competitive again. Saving money by not testing not developing is counter to industry that races for a living. Don't make PU's so complicated that the best engineers in the world have difficulty even making them run. There's lots of room on the spectrum between the old V8 and this new crazy PU. Pick someplace on it that has some balance.
     
  4. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Exactly!

    By no means am I faulting Merc for this, they have done the very best job (though they did know up to a year(!) in advance that they where running these engines...) but the silly rules are killing the sport at a quick rate...I've said it before and will say it again: F1 can't afford to lose fans right now.

    You're entirely right in saying that the PU is so complicated that even the best engineers in the world are having a hard time getting the show running. That's when you know it's gone too far.

    I HATE their argument that it has so much to do with road relevance. I'm sorry, but I can't walk down the Merc dealer right now and order a car that has 1 single part in it that's also in their F1 car. Besides, they know how it works now, so lets get back to the actual sport before it implodes.

    Todt needs to get rid of his fantasy that F1 should be green, the people opposed to motor racing before will forever be opposed to it. Soon they'll find an issue with the tiresome and pointless series that is Formula E that it's electricity isn't green enough, or that they run too many laps, or that it disturbs a local chicken population...it'll never end. Stop trying to please the greenies...
     
  5. NJB13

    NJB13 Formula 3
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    The premise of the OP is completely correct.

    For me I couldn't give a fat rat's clacker if Mercedes decided to leave.

    Open up creativity by eliminating as many rules as possible.

    A V10 as Bas described would save so much money for every team, could produce more power, sound great and, the only point I'd disagree with on that engine would be the KERS or batteries. It's not needed at all and only adds expense.

    I do also believe that a V6 turbo could also be great, make it a twin turbo GDI with no flow or volume restrictions and let the engine rev and you would have a beast of a completely different nature, but more than powerful enough, and still a beast.

    Make engines cheaper, get rid of a mountain of rules, do that well enough and you will see people trying to bring marquee names (ie Brabham) or starting all new teams which have a hope of improving and really competing - trust me, no-one will care if Mercedes leaves.
     
  6. Duck_Hollywood

    Duck_Hollywood Formula Junior

    May 21, 2006
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    Is the power unit really to blame? Is it really a coincidence that the top two teams, are the only two teams that design and build their own power unit and chassis?
     
  7. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
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    Remember: for many years, F1 worked fine with no more than 3 engine suppliers: Cosworth, Ferrari, and either BRM (earlier) or Renault (later).
     
  8. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I'm pretty sure it was just the first two for quite a few years - Everyone outside Ferrari was using the Cossie. And Ferrari didn't do customer engines, just their own.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  9. itschris

    itschris Formula 3

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    From a cost perspective... sure. F1 is eliminating all the things that are needed to have exciting racing like continued development and testing of that development due to trying to save costs. Why save the cost at the expense of the fundamentals of the sport? I forget the exact amount but the cost of these PU's are ridiculous. That's what's killing the teams and forcing even more measures that hurt the sport.

    You can't have it both ways.. great for Merc that they did such a great job... but you don't turn around and lock in their success by preventing teams form figuring out how to catch them? Is that racing?
     
  10. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

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    +1

    We even could get of the ERS unit for sure.

    Renault/Honda teams are probably going to use up to 10 units per car this season. that's £7.5 million per car. £15m all in. That's not even counting for replacing individual parts constantly. Williams noted that the switch to these hugely complicated engines contributes to 20% of their total annual spending suddenly. That is hugely expensive.

    I've said many times before, if you can't afford it, go play somewhere else...But we have to be realistic: There is little money going to F1 teams currently, the economy is still in crisis. Companies aren't exactly lining up to sponsor teams, either (case in point: MCLAREN!). They're going to be even less likely to invest when fewer and fewer people get up to watch the races. And I maintain that a big contributing factor to that is the terrible noise these engine emit.

    What you say, if these engines had fewer restrictions, more turbos, more power...(1000bhp would easily be doable) the noise would significantly increase, as would people turning their TV's on.

    Make F1 a bit simpler, therefore less costly...and you're right: F1 more attractive, therefore more viewers, more sponsors, more money.

    Will we likely still have just 2 teams fighting for the lead? Almost certainly. But it'll always be like that.
    I know several people that stopped watching almost completely when they heard the noise. Some of these have been following F1 for 20-30+ years, all quali's and races, went to plenty...I'm sure we all know someone or multiple people that stopped watching. And those numbers add up quick. Last year F1 lost 5.6% of viewers. That's staggering.

    We've always had just 1 or 2 teams really fighting it out, very occasionally we get a 3rd in there.

    The current engine formula didn't work. And will never work. They can continue to have meetings about ''upping ze power'' (pretty simple. Bolt on a big turbo, up boost, more fuel. Done).

    Putting the teams in charge isn't going to work, and even worse is letting the FIA have any kind of say. Bernie knows a thing or two about entertainment, perhaps he should have an ''F1 entertainment group'' set up, employ someone who knows his **** RE costs and viability. I say Ross Brawn...he's currently jobless.

    A succesful meeting, where they can lay out the rules for 2017 will put F1 in a positive spin: NA V10 engines, wide tires, simple stuff...that's whats going to happen. Teams can either play or go home (considering that cost saving is in favour for all of them, except Mercedes, they'll happily play).

    Fans will love it.

    You can't get water from a dry well. It. Has. To. Happen.
     
  11. TifosiUSA

    TifosiUSA F1 Veteran

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    Great post, agree 100%.
     
  12. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Some remarkably good thoughts on the topic from Sweater Boy;

    I can certainly understand Merc wanting to "protect their competitive advantage", but surely even they see the harm this is doing to the sport?

    Give them all some more tokens and let them use 'em whenever they choose during the season. Insert a few more test days after (some of) the races and things may move in the right direction.

    Cheers,
    Ian
    F1 engine rule changes must not 'bankrupt' teams - Ferrari chairman - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com
     
  13. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
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    Yeah, I agree. There's no sense dominating a sport that nobody cares about anymore - there's no marketing benefit for the brand in doing that. If the sport is healthier then there's more meaning in the title when you win it.

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  14. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Matra
    Alfa
    Lamborghini
    And others.
     
  15. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Good call! ;) But only briefly (in that timeframe) IIRC?

    I *still* get goosebumps when remembering that particular noise though!

    Some think the Ferrari 12's were the "best" (sounding at least). But, IMO, nothing, but nothing, approached the scream of that Matra.... Just *awesome*!

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  16. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    You edited! ;)

    Alfa; ****.
    Lamborghini; Really ****
    Pueguet (sp?); Really, really, ****!

    ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  17. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The question isn't who thrived but who showed up
     
  18. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
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    Peugeot?

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  19. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    That's the guys!.... I tried spelling it all kinds of ways, knew I was still wrong, gave up & hoped someone would be along to correct me! Thanks! :)

    No matter the spelling, they were still **** though. ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  20. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
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    My first car was a Peugeot... written off when I got hit head on by a drunk driver who then restarted his engine and rammed me off the road entirely into a ditch so he could drive away. Still, I can vouch for the passenger cell - that did its job perfectly.

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
  21. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    Well said. Mercedes are so far ahead of anyone else as in the Schumi years at times. People tune out when there is lack of competition. Fans ask alot of a sport to give both competition and ease of understanding to be balanced against the interests of those actually in the sport such as the teams.

    The marketing side must be nervous as Mclaren have no major sponsor at all to this date. Exposure for products with today's media choices do not need a race car at all.
     
  22. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Ouch! Hopefully everyone was OK. Did they find the DD?

    Their road cars were fine - I actually owned a pretty "hot" injected 504 for a while - Not a bad car at all as I recall.

    Their F1 lump OTOH was a complete POS......

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  23. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
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    My then girlfriend (now wife) and I had only been dating for 2 months at that time. She suffered whiplash.

    I saw the accident coming at the last second, but didn't have enough time to get to the brake. What I did have time to do was grip the steering wheel really, really hard and I hurt my shoulders.

    The police found the rental Ford Transit van that hit us abandoned about a mile and a half down the road, locked and with no sign of forced entry. Beer bottles in the passenger foot well. The crash was on a Friday night and the guy who was paying £30-something a day to rent it "realized" it was gone on Monday morning and reported it stolen then. So the police marked it down as a recovered stolen car, case closed.

    I wanted the beer bottles and airbag tested for saliva to compare to the van's renter, but the insurance companies took the van back and obliterated any possible forensic evidence. And my car? Sorry kid, you only had liability and we don't cover the collateral damage done by car thieves as the thief was technically an uninsured driver.

    My faith in the British police died that day, though thankfully Nicky and I didn't.

    All the best,
    Andrew.

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
     
  24. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The Scottish Highlands in a Peugeot 205 GTI. Best road trip evah!
     
  25. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Moderator
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    Royal County of Berkshire in a 106 was almost as good. :eek:

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     

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