Why is the 599GTO not included in the "supercars"

I have a GTO coming in Jan and I think the car's fantastic.

But, it isn't a supercar for a simple reason - the performance benchmark just isn't stretched enough.

Consider the Enzo, released in 2002, it took until 2007 for the Scuderia to be the first car to equal the Enzo's Fiorano time. And we know that's subjective because a different type of track would advantage the Enzo's greater power and lighter weight.

All of the F40/50/Enzo had bespoke carbon chassis, unique one-of-a-kind engine with a massive performance benchmark not to be equalled for years to come, and ground breaking tech which trickles down to road cars over next 10 years. The GTO doesn't do that and it's engine is still clearly an Enzo/599 derivative.

The 599 replacement is due in 2012 and will likely eclipse the GTO's performance already - just like what the 458 did with the 430 Scuderia just 2 years later.

I think the 599 and Enzo replacement will give better clues to why Ferrari chose to call it GTO (besides the obvious marketing benefits). Time will tell.

 

It is the street-legal "racer version" of a street car.

The 360 Modena has the 360 Challenge Stradale (CS).
The 430 has the 430 Scuderia and 430 16M.
The 599 GTB has the 599 GTO.

The supercars come out approx/ every 10 years to celebrate the major anniversaries of Ferrari's history. The next one in the series should be the "F70".

 

I wish Ferrari would not re-use historical names for their cars.
There are so many good names to choose from.
Some examples of names that I wish hadn't been re-used are:
- Mondial, California, GTO, Superamerica, Barcheta, etc.

 

Good points Toggie. I think supercar status is arrived at when there is very near acclamation. Hence, not here.

I was genuinely disappointed when the name and car were released. Now, it's growing on me. Instead of cheapening the honorable name, I see the car as a worthy carrier of the name today.

Part of that is recognition of what the car is. Part of it is my understanding of how the company wishes to build upon the legacy. Part is understanding that, homologation aside, this is what the company would (and has) delivered for customers desiring such a car. And finally, part of my aceptance is that I understand that this is a fine chapter in the companies history.

 

You missed his point. All GTO's until the 599GTO were designed to win races, to defend Ferraris honour on the track. The 288GTO only never sat foot on a race track because the FIA pulled Group B, otherwise that is where it was designed for.

The 599GTO and 599FXX were NEVER designed to defend Ferrari honour on the race track. The FXX was only created to remove money from overly rich people that wanted to go and play on a race track, not to win Le Mans, etc.

So the very incorrect use of the GTO label is indeed marketing only and very disappointing from Ferrari. The should have used the GTO label for the Maserati version of the Enzo, a car that actually WAS designed to race for the company ... instead of wanking around on the street and playing on track days.

No matter how good the 599GTO street car is, Ferrari have lowered the significance of the name GTO to the same level as Pontiac. The 599GTO will never be considered a supercar and never considered a true GTO, just like a 156 GTA Alfa Romeo is not a real GTA.

They should have called the 599GTO the 599FXS, where S stood for Stradale.
Pete

 

+1

Alfa Romeo do it too .
Pete

 

Oh my ... That's a bold statement.

 

+1 Very well put.

 

I also think you 're right, marketing!

 

+1. While it may never have gotten any actual air in Group B combat v. Lancia/Escort RS200/Quattro/Peugeot 205, etc., as intended - at least the 288 and Mitsu have twin-turbos!
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OK......but lets for a moment imagine it did and won nothing......would it still be regarded as something special?

Say what you will about the use of the GTO moniker on the 599.....bottom line it has been derived directly from a car designed to race on a track (albeit not competitively) with the best homologatable (is that a word?) technology that Ferrari currently has to offer. The only reason it doesnt race competitvely is that there is currently no Group to enter. It just seems to me that sceptics will remain no matter what and biases and inconsistencies will always be part of the arguments. The 599 GTO has proven itself to be a great car and people should enjoy and appreciate it for what it is....not what it isint.

 

What is the definition of a supercar?

 

Actually, in the vintage/classic world, competition/race history counts for a lot. Consider the 1973 Porsche 911 RS 2.7 and the 911S of the same year. The RS was homologated for racing, and did well, and today you could buy 3 or 4 1973 911S's for the price of one 911 RS 2.7 even in the more common "touring" configuration.

A good Ferrari parallel: The Testarossa of the 1980s, for example, was arguably the supreme exotic car of its era but -- despite its lineage back to the competition-descended 'boxer' flat V12, it was intended as an expensive road car and will never be held in anything like the regard of the original 250 TR. (If you want to compare production numbers, the F512M is probably a better equivalent to the 599 GTO - essentially they were all bought as numbered, limited edition collectibles and tucked under a car cover for 15 years in order to appreciate.)

 

F 40
F 40
F 40
F 40

Nothing else....

 

What does GTO stand for?

BTW: Ferrari did not homologate the 599GTO because if they did it would fit in a current group and be able to enter. That is what homologate means, and why the 250GTO is the best and why the 288GTO is real. Does not matter if the 288GTO won or not, heck many Ferrari F1 cars did not win, it is the intention that matters and why Ferrari used to be so awesome, ie. they made race cars, and even their road cars were once competitive in real series on the track ... but you really have to go back before '75 to refind this now .

The F40 was never homologated either but thankfully later on a race series came along that it could play in, but note the F40 is not the F40 GTO.

Also when Ferrari made the pointless (IMO) Enzo they also did not homologate it, and when they (er, Maserati) went to race it they found it did not fit any series and they had to get special dispensation. This shows how Ferrari does not give a flying fnck about GT racing anymore as they do not even bother to have a look at any race series when they design these cars.

Yes the 599GTO is undoubtably a great road car, but it does not deserve the GTO name as it was not homologated for anything, neither was the 599FXX.
Pete

 

Was there ever a race version? Or, if no, a pre-production prototype/development car in Rally/Group B configuration?

 

And maybe the only Ferrari that will receive this name?

 

I'll bet the 599 will rock your world based on the 599 I own. I think it looks great and I love it. I also think it will not hold up to supercar status in years to come. It just needed a different level of body work. I like it but it is not different enough from my car. It is much better looking. The F40 has the look. The GTO will outrun it with no problem. Time will tell. I hope for the guys who bought one that they do attain supercar status.

 

Pete. Its more than just a "great road car"...its blistering at the track, as well. As has been repeated many times, its the fastest production car ever made by Ferrari--road or track.

But these little continuous vignettes are really pointless.

Believe what you will--like most owners, I'd suggest you should actually own or drive a GTO hard before you're qualified to comment--but irrespective of ownership or any of the rest, Ferrari has given it the GTO title, as they did with the 250 and 288. The indisputable fact is that they get to chose. I surely think its past time to just "get over it" and move on.

And let's all be frank--if its ok with frank of course --Its a sensational car. Better engineered, faster, more agile, and easier to drive really hard quickly--as well, btw as quite docile on the streets if you wish it to be--than any other production Ferrari I've experienced and I've been in most of the serious models made over the past 25 years.

That doesn't diminish the others or their specialness one tiny bit--they are fantastic motorcars in their own right.

But, in the hands of serious, experienced driver, the GTO would leave all of them breathing hard to even keep up.

Whether you wish to give it due by calling it a "supercar" or not, there's no doubt its an incredible "super" car.

I honestly hope you have the opportunity to see for yourself...in the meantime, Enjoy--

 

Can't disagree with much of what is said here. So... looking back at the title of this thread, and getting back on topic, it is now clear why this particular GTO is in the correct forum section. Can we move on now and get to back to enjoying this particular Ferrari product for what it is - a great ('super') road car?