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Why is the vintage Ferrari community ok with changing the color of a car?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by sixcarbs, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    Dec 19, 2004
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    I have been meaning to bring this up for some time and now I noticed in the 1451GT thread there is talk that the color might be changed.

    I grew up around classic cars, my father was into big old American cars. He always preached that it was a no-no to change the original color of a car, even if you didn't like it. I had a '69 Corvette for a number of years. In the Corvette community it is taboo to change the original color and it will cost you points when being judged.

    But the Ferrari community seems to accept it. Even when being judged or certified Classiche. And it doesn't seem to have a big effect on the value of a car. (It does to me but I think I am in the minority.) The Ferrari community even dismisses interior color changes as well. (I think the exterior and interior colors need to be period, but I could be wrong.)

    Yes, people have a right to do what they want with their cars, but in this hobby we strive to keep things original. That's the goal. I am not telling people what to do but the Ferrari community should demand original colors if people want to take top awards, don't you think?

    So how did it develop that color is not an issue for judging? How come Classiche doesn't require the cars to wear the original color they were born with? I know the color is not on the VIN plate but the world seems to know what color each of these cars were when they left the factory.
     
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  2. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
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    I personally have nothing against a color change with a normal car although I do not understand owners who repaint their car in a common color when it originally had a special one.
    But there are cars that are important and...less important! #1451GT is one of the important cars with its fantastic history etc. For that reason it truly deserves to keep its Le Mans livery. This car is a piece of motorsport history and an important part of the Ferrari heritage! So far it is still in its original color and I can only hope that it will continue in silver. But I was told that the new owner changed all his cars into red in the past.
    I understand that he already has a LWB. So when his plan is to change #1451GT also to stupid red...why the hell did he buy it? Would he also give the Mona Lisa bigger boobs because he would not like their original size....?
     
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  3. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    In my opinion...

    I don’t care if the car gets a body change, much lass a paint change. The engine in a Ferrari is everything.

    By comparison, the 283, 327, 350 SBC is one of the world’s most ubiquitous, cheap and available engines ever made. So it makes sense that the Corvette owners would covet date-correct engines, and date-correct other bits as well. Including the paint color. And even grease pen marks.

    A paint change is only money. Even a body change can be undone. But that 12 cylinder Columbo engine is absolutely everything.

    Matt
     
  4. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Dec 10, 2003
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    The Dino I bought had been at least 3 colors. According to the layers we peeled off when we stripped and repainted it.

    Originally white exterior, blue seats, red carpet, by the time I got it the seats were black, exterior Rossa Corsa and the carpet? Still the original red.

    Given that the original color scheme struck me as awful, and I was repainting it anyway, I stayed with red, put in tan Daytona seats and black carpet. That seemed to me to be the best combination. I'm guessing I was right as the car looked great, no one cared that it had been repainted non-original colors and it was an FCA regional 99.5 point car at concours.

    There are no color code plaques on dinos, so changing it didn't seem like a big deal. I will say this, there was NO WAY it was going back to the original color combo.

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    D
     
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  5. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    My 330 was originally white with a red interior.

    Someone changed it to silver with back guts.

    I wouldn’t have bought the original scheme.

    Matt
     
  6. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie
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    As long as it is a period correct Ferrari colour I have no issues with colour changes. My own car was changed from Dino Blue to Rosso Chiaro in the late seventies and has been ever since. it's history is far more associated with it being red than blue.

    On a slightly different note, my late Father had an Iso Grifo restored a few years back. It was painted black when he brought it and every expert in that community said the car was originally Old English White. When the paint was stripped back there was indeed white under the black, however there was also a metallic red underneath the white! Our best guess was that the car had been first painted red then for some reason - maybe a change of order - had been resprayed white before leaving the factory?
     
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  7. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    Personally I do want the cars to remain in original color combinations and changes would be a point deduction. I hear that there are some within the IAC/PFA that share this sentiment but it does not appear to be a topic high on the list for action.

    But the following are points that need to be part of this topic:
    - As has been proven, there are sometimes errors in the older Ferrari records
    - As one sees here on FChat there are recurring questions on paint formulas since the determining a correct color can be very difficult
    - There are instances of color changes before final delivery
    - What would one do when the historically significant achievements of a car were done after a change from "as originally built"? Were the stripes factory applied?
    - If one uses the standards of the CCCA, it is OK as long as the colorations and accessories could have been possible and appropriate for the period
     
  8. Christian.Fr

    Christian.Fr F1 World Champ

    Jun 9, 2005
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    Repaint a car seems to be contemporary art...A personal touch, an indelible trace, recorded on the history of this car.

    Take it as a whim.

    On the other hand, stop confusing the Mona Lisa with Ferrari. A painting of genius is not convertible, and that whatever the owner.
     
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  9. LARRYH

    LARRYH F1 Rookie
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    Jun 3, 2011
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    I know with Corvettes changing the color is big hit to value . this is probably mainly because corvettes have color number and trim numbers as part on the trim tag in the car ... and NCRS really study the trim tag.....
    To the best of my knowledge the old Ferraris do not have such a trim plate ...making it less of a ordeal....
     
  10. PFSEX

    PFSEX Formula Junior

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    Way back sometime when original judging standards were set up (thanks Ed Gilbertson) for Ferraris, it was agreed that color changes were OK (no deduction) so long as the new color was one that was available from the factory on the car when the car was new. Same goes for interior.

    I think that s a reasonable decision. If an owner does not like the color of his car, he can change it within reason. Remember, a subsequent owner can always change it back.

    The only caveat, in my mind, is the color of a car that is somewhat noteworthy and whose color is tied to its history. For example, I had a kind of special 330 GTC (8727). I was painting it and I liked a light silver-grey best. But, since it was an important car with a previous important owner that was associated with a particular color (blu scuro - navy blue - no metal flake) I wound up painting it the original color. In the end, I was glad I did.
     
  11. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
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    My ~24K mile Nocciolla GTC with original paint was purchased by someone who changed the color, and I certainly acknowledge his right to do it. But it's a shame that the world lost another artifact that showcased the good, bad and indifferent talents and resources of the Ferrari factory circa 1968! Fred Simeone's book on preservation of 'important' automobiles should be required reading for all collectors. At the end of the day, 'important' is, for me, the operative word. One of ~700 GTCs is... not that important. One of ~39 odd GTOs: getting important. The GTO Phil Hill drove at Sebring in 1962? Important.
     
  12. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
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    Musing further, it is interesting how different auto tribes have their own doctrinal absolutes. The Corvette guys referenced above get silly about precise adherence to the build sheet, whereas the Bentley community shrugs off Engine swaps, even 3 to 4.5L, and even rebodies...
     
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  13. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    They say Portago ordered a black Ferrari and Enzo delivered him a red one.

    He painted it black, in front of the Factory, with a BRUSH!
    It is in the book....LOL!
     
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  14. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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    I agree with the OP.
     
  15. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
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    good quality paint work is OK, what gets me is what some call "patina"... which in many cases looks like the car was taken from storage in a cesspool
     
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  16. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

    May 14, 2017
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    Funny. So true. If your going to restore a car, just get over it and make the damn thing perfect.
     
  17. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    To me the colour of car is a very personal thing, an extension of one's personality, and I think the owner should decide on what they like the best. I don't even care if it's a factory colour, as long as it looks good. I just discovered an Aston DB6 painted the most beautiful shade of blue..."Dawn Blue", which is apparently a Rolls colour. I think it would look great on an old Ferrari.

    The truth is that these days, most 50 year old cars with original paint look terrible. "Time capsule" is a misused phrase. That means the thing is supposed to look as it did 50 years ago, when it was brand new, not look like a worn out, peeling hunk of metal.

    What is original anyway? It's a huge grey area. Ok, say a car has original paint. What about tires, fuel line, and brakes? Do you ever intend to drive it? Because if you do, you might be rolling in a six figure death trap. And if we say it's ok to change some (but not all- those numbers need to match!) mechanical parts but superficial things like paint and leather need to stay original, aren't we just making up an arbitrary line in the sand that's essentially meaningless?

    I say paint it the colour you want it to be. If the leather is tan and you want black, go ahead and reupholster it. And yes, of the person you sell it to is a stickler for originality, they can always change it back.
     
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  18. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I think a big part of the issue is that back in the 1970s when these were just used cars, it was viewed as almost essential to change the color to red. So many, many Ferraris were changed to red back in those days.

    With so many cars already having color changes in their history, what's the big deal with another one? Even going back to the original color is still a color change... in my case, my car was originally silver, painted "resale red" in 1980, and I went back to silver. I like how the silver looks and am very happy with it, but it doesn't make it any more original, at least in my eyes, than if I had painted it dark blue.
     
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  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #19 Rifledriver, Dec 18, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017

    IAC/PFA judging guidelines are weighted towards keeping the cars representing what Ferrari built, not that specific car. In the end they are cars and need to be enjoyed and driven by their owners and we try very hard not to stand in the way of that, that is also why minor signs of use are overlooked. Part of preservation of the marque in our mind is for the cars to be out in the public domain being enjoyed by all. Also as far as paint color goes, paint is not permanent. It can be changed. Repainting your originally silver 275 to one of the reds in use at the time for example to let you enjoy it more really only reduces its value to a very strict minded originalist and then only by the amount of a paint job, a small percentage of a restoration and a very small percentage of the market value of the car. It is our position that any color or equipment combination available from Ferrari for that model is OK. We have no desire to make the judging criteria so narrow it prevents you from enjoying it as a car. Personally if there is anything to be offended by it is the level of perfect fit and finish desired by many. Vintage Ferraris were hand built and a lofty standard of perfection was not really the target in those areas. I'd rather see one as built than a rolling display of the level of perfection a good restorer can achieve. It is one of many reasons I am so happy preservation of good original cars has become popular and that the National Preservation Awards are so popular and coveted.
     
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  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    I ran out of time but meant to also say any car entered in the competition category needs to be presented in any livery it had when in competition and any car considered for a major award would probably take a hit in the voting if not in its original color.
     
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  21. earthandsea

    earthandsea Rookie

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    It looks like I am in the minority regarding paint color. I agree with the idea that points should be deducted for non-original color. Acceptable in place of original might be a respray done prior to, or just after delivery to first owner, or respray in a color the car was known to be during an important era in the cars history. I am not as comfortable with everyone painting these cars whatever color pleases them. On the other hand, they own the car and can do whatever they like with it - they don't need my approval. I am just another guy with an opinion.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    The IAC/PFA board meets annually at Cavallino Classic. We discuss among other things rule changes suggested by interested parties. Feel free to submit a suggestion accompanied with an argument for that change. Last year I argued one for an FCAPR member and there was a rule change as a result. I will say based on our basic philosophy the color issue isn't going to change in the foreseeable future but it all depends on the case you make. In the case of this years meeting the agenda is pretty well set.
     
  23. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    They need to make a really good movie — or mini series — about him. On Netflix or HBO.

    Matt
     
  24. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
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    the line that gets me, is the one from, delivered by the "expert", that questions a color as not being an original factory color... Ferrari as many other car manufacturers offer "color to sample" with a color pallet running in the millions ( 16 + million colors ?) which makes any color that is presented a "factory color"
     
  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    A colour change made by the Factory itself or commissioned by them and undertaken by one of the Carrozzeria they use would be perfectly acceptable.
     

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