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Why is the vintage Ferrari community ok with changing the color of a car?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by sixcarbs, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    As with anything Ferrari related "original factory" is usually defined as what was standard. In the case of colors it is those offered at no extra charge. As we know they will do a great many things for a price but documentation is needed on a case by case basis. If you want to claim your purple Ferrari is original you better have documentation.
     
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  2. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    It's also helpful to remember how cheap it was to re-paint a car in the 60s and 70s.

    So cheap that it was done a lot more than today.

    Matt
     
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  3. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Based on his love life it might need to be on Skinamax! ;)
     
  4. Themaven

    Themaven Formula 3
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    At what age does it stop mattering whether a Ferrari has been repainted? Newer Ferraris take a hit in value if they aren't 'original paint', even if that means one panel repainted and the whole car the same colour as when it left the factory.

    It's strange that painting a rosso corsa 1970s Ferrari yellow doesn't affect value, but respraying the bumper of a a 2010 16M after a parking scrape can result in 'diminished value'.

    I'm pretty sure that if I resprayed my 22 year old F512M (rosso corsa) in Azzuro Hyperion it would hit the value. It wouldn't affect a Dino, it sounds like. So what's the line? 1980? And what's the logic?
     
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  5. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    To answer the second question first- there is no logic. No real or objective logic, anyway.
    With very few exceptions these cars are not one of a kind objects. Nor are they works of art meant to hang on a wall. They are machines. Highly beautiful and often rare, but still machines that were meant to be driven and driven hard. The lines people draw about what's acceptable to do in terms of upkeep, never mind personal preference or set-up, vary wildly. But for some reason many feel their opinions, which are perfectly valid, need to become "rules". That I don't get.
    As for the "line", good question. Maybe starting during or after the 365 series? That seems to be the grey area right now. Anything prior to that and the cars hold enough value that the cost of a repaint is a mere fraction of the cars overall value. It might relate as much to value vs repaint costs as it does to age or anything else. A $50k repaint on a $200k car is a big difference in cost to value ratio compared to a $50k repaint on a $2 million car. If I repainted my Mondial properly it could cost more than the monetary value of the car itself!
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    It never stops mattering. If you had a 212 with original paint and leather in good condition It would be worth an enormous premium over other like 212's. The fact of the matter is though until Ferrari switched over to Glasurit in 82 or 83 all prior cars had been painted with garbage and there was no expectation of the paint lasting this long. But, no matter the paint brand when a car is 50 years old that same expectation applies just for normal aging. To me a 512 with a repaint just indicates poor care and the value should take a hit. People don't want to buy a Ferrari that was treated like a rental car and banging it into things gets into that territory. On later cars repainting of the bumper is accepted and not really looked down upon but finding a car with 100% original paint in excellent condition would without question be a plus. Original good paint never stops being a plus. No one here has said otherwise, it has only been said that if painted a color change is not a huge additional minus.
     
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  7. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    I agree but are you referring solely to judging criteria? Because often cars with race history, which have been crashed, burned, rebodied, repainted, and often re-engined, bring huge premiums when sold specifically because they were raced. I don't know how those things are dealt with during concours judging. Is there a fundamentally different set of criteria for ex-race cars and road cars?

    Sort of a tangent but just curious.
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    No I am talking about market value at this point. I agree about a race car but that is 1/100th of a percent of the market with too many variables to draw certain conclusions. And it introduces a value point having nothing to do with condition or originality. Same can be said of famous ownership. Besides, what would bring more value, a crashed many times and rebuilt many times ex race car with a very questionable percentage of original content or an unraced 100% original 0 miles GTO? It is only hypothetical because it has not and will not happen but similar cases with other models has and they go for monstrous money. The overall point is originality in excellent condition with these cars trumps redone to a high standard. It really makes no difference how old the car is.
     
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  9. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

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    currently there is a 330LMB (4619) that has not been damaged / crashed, highly maintained, essentially unraced pristine condition, that is sucking the hind tit when it comes to value especially when there are other 330LMB and 250GTO that have been severely damaged / unrolled from a ball of scrap metal that are demanding prices higher than their undamaged counterparts... in that market undamaged originality takes a back seat
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    No different criteria. I wish there was and now that I am on the IAC/PFA board I may work to change that. For vintage race cars it makes no difference, most all have been restored. I judged a couple of later race cars at Cavallino. One was a 360 Michelotto car with an important race history. It looked like it had just come off the track. I apologized in advance and told him it needed to be judged same as a street car and I could not give it a pass. I also told him I hope he never changed a thing because as an historical artifact it is far more important. We need to give those people a reason to show up. Not sure there is a perfect answer but how it is now isn't it for sure.
     
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  11. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Just based on online photos I would not call it untouched original.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Nor would I describe it as you did.
     
  13. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I think there is some confusion here about "original paint" versus "original color." Originality, in general should bring a premium (after all, it can only be truly original once)... just having the same color as when it left the factory seems much less valuable, to me at least. And given that most Ferraris of this vintage have worn multiple colors over their existence, what's really most appropriate? The color it left the factory in, or the color it's spent 90% of it's life wearing?
     
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  14. davemqv

    davemqv F1 Rookie

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    Right. I see.
    I agree. My bone of contention is not with "originality in excellent condition", but with "original but in horrible condition", which you see much more often than the former..."original paint" or "original interior", especially in relation to the way the rest of a car was handled, often seems to translate to "I ran out of money" or "I never got around to it."
    That said, as often as I argue for the owner painting a car as they like, I would personally seek out an already repainted car, or a car badly in need of a repaint, before I would repaint an all original car in good/excellent condition. That's the vast majority at this point anyway.
    Not saying you're arguing this, but I still don't get the fetishisation of bad condition as "original". To me it has always seemed like something that was started and perpetuated more by dealers and auction houses seeking a premium than by enthusiasts. "We" (ie-the car enthusiast community) are often lemmings in that respect...which I find a bit silly. But just my 2¢.
     
  15. LorenzoOO

    LorenzoOO Formula Junior
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    My observation about vintage Ferrari is that so many parts are not original, for example: wheels, tires, brakes, brake lines, shocks, springs, wiring, leather, tops, paints, etc etc etc, that the car has hundreds of non original parts. The color, no matter what anyone says, if it is a new spray of the “original” color, would not match anyway. So, who’s fooling who?
     
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  16. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula 3

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    I appreciate that there are some diehards that love patina on vintage cars. They love to look at this dent and that rust spot and chat about when so and so crashed it. They love to admire the cracking, worn out leather because it’s the same hide that so and so sat on. I’m pretty confident I’m speaking for the majority when I say, restore the heck out of them. I love going to Pebble Beach, Amelia Island and the Cavallino Classic, and seeing these amazing vintage cars in absolute perfect condition. Are they original? Heck no. Thank god they aren’t. I’m sure the never looked that good when they rolled out of the factory.
     
  17. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

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    no where was it said it was "untouched original",.. rather it has been highly maintained... road rash and other surface imperfections from use have been dealt with including respray... otherwise the car has not been molested in the 50+ years since it left the factory, where as other cars have been rebuilt from major damage, with only a small portion of the car being salvageable or small amount of originality... the point is that originality / remaining originality... the damaged goods are ignored in their pricing in favor of provenance and quality resurrection... one doesn't need to go far to find examples, just go to the 250 GTO... it is a coveted group of cars at the current zenith of pricing...
     
  18. kare

    kare F1 Rookie
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    I'm out of words. There is nothng I wish to say anymore.
     
  19. Themaven

    Themaven Formula 3
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    Thanks for clarifying, Brian. I can see that makes sense, yes.
     
  20. Themaven

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the market sentiment of originality trumping restoration has only come back in the last 10 years, right? Modifications and restorations were all the rage in the 1990s, from memory. Or did that not apply to Ferraris then? It was much harder to be informed back then if you weren't in the trade, because of no internet.
     
  21. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I don't know about the 1990s (originality seemed more of interest then as well), but certainly in the 1970s and 80s that was the case.
     
  22. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Just want to say thank you all for sharing your opinions and expertise. I truly enjoy reading this and refining my own opinions.
     
  23. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli Formula 3
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    A have been following this very interesting thread for quite a while and would like to add my thoughts.

    I purchased my GTC in November, 1975 and after staring at it in my garage for a few weeks, I decided that I just didn’t like the color.

    Although quite popular, I did not care for the light metallic blue, similar to the photo. I wanted a very bright/vibrant/loud color, and one suitable to the body shape. The horn button caught my eye. It was the brightest yellow I had ever seen. I contacted virtually every dealer in the USA, asking if they had ever seen a yellow GTC. All answers were a resounding NO!

    I took the horn button to a paint shop for a color match: It matched 1975 Corvette Bright Yellow, a standard GM color.

    But, here was the dilemma: I spent every bit of my savings on the car and, plain and simple, I could not afford a paint job.

    So, one option: Learn to paint! I had the paint shop mix me up a gallon of the yellow and the required primer and such. I then put the car up on jackstands, removed every outside piece except the glass and started sanding. After many hours of prep, the GTC was ready to become sunshine bright.

    The color went on perfectly and I stood back and looked at my new prize – it was truly beautiful.

    Many miles of driving (it was and still is my everyday driver), and although I never intended it to be a show car, it acquired many best in class and best in show awards and many compliments on the color. Also, a good number of criticisms on my choice of a non-original/non-factory color but, I was pleased and that’s what really matters.

    It’s not a big deal to change colors – whether you’re doing a Chevy or Ferrari, it basically requires the same amount of material and labor.

    I’m not an FCA member nor will I ever enter an FCA show. I did that in 2010 and was totally insulted, placing last. All the cars that finished ahead of me arrived in trailers. I drove seven hundred miles.

    My most memorable event was the Hilton Head Island Saturday show, where my car was chosen “Best of Show” – TWICE. The only car to ever do so!

    Although I have never planned to sell the car, at some point it will become the property of a new owner. He/She can change the color if so desired. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
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  24. LorenzoOO

    LorenzoOO Formula Junior
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    The original looks like Azzura California
     
  25. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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