Why No Ferrari Production Mid-Engine 12 Cylinder

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Rossocorsa1, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. Themaven

    Themaven Formula 3
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    I didn't mean to diss the 488. Astonishing car, as fast as a Veyron for all practicalities. 'Thrilling' terms of my 430 manual is a subjective thing. One person's thrill is another person's old tech.

    F512M was rendered very old fashioned by the 550. Dinosaur. It's a car to buy if you're someone like me who drives it occasionally for fun, but in 1997 if you wanted an everyday driver, the 550 would sell many, many more units. And a mid engined V12 nowadays won't be any better than your 488, unless it's a crazy all out hypercar. I guess that's the logic.
     
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  2. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    I was just giving you a hard time. I knew what you meant. I also have an 89 328 GTB. Nice and old school.
     
  3. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    If the designer wants a short engine bay in a V12 ME car, one needs to look no further than the Muira to see how its done.
     
  4. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Rookie
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    That's perfectly expressed! You should use that as a signature line.
     
  5. red passion

    red passion Rookie

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    Selling too many units of the same model is actually the last thing Ferrari should go after. It is about exclusivity on a per model basis. That is the reason why they announced to launch new models to the portfolio. The new modular architecture should support this attempt, as development and production cost for new model variants should come down.
     
  6. Themaven

    Themaven Formula 3
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    That's a very cool combination.
     
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  8. Themaven

    Themaven Formula 3
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    Thanks! It probably sums up a few of the debates on this board..
     
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  9. LightGuy

    LightGuy Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I remember when the 550 came out and there was a 512M on the showroom floor.
    I "was working for the man" but still dropped into the Ferrari shop to waste the salesman's time and drool on the cars. Thanks James Dunn for talking the time to talk to me. Even then everyone knew the 512M was special and last of its kind. The 550 was the "gentleman's" Ferrari. Pretty much the same as the 575, 599, F12 and now 812.
    Dinosaur ? Would you rather rather ride a T-Rex than a show horse ?
     
  10. spirot

    spirot F1 Veteran
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    At the time the TR's were getting too big and heavy and the styling was getting older. Montezemolo wanted better quality and reliability - more day to day use & function and higher performance. he started with the 355, 550, and 456... to get them Right. Hard to argue that he did not.

    as for a 12 cyl mid engine car - the dynamics you point out are very accurate. packaging a 12 cyl for a mid engine car is difficult, and creates a lot of useless space needs. you either end up with way over bodied car - Maserati MC12 or confined spaces like La Ferrari... with no usable luggage space. plus you have to accommodate cooling requirements for a larger car etc... However McLaren F-1 did it and I don't see why Ferrari could not do it on a larger scale. The Historical Ferrari line up was that the 12 cyl cars were the "top of the range" fast and luxury cars, with the V-8's as the sporty "racer" type cars... Enzo preferred the larger front engine v-12's as that is what he admired ... as a wealthy persons car... so that is what he made. I agree that driving a Mid engine 12 cyl Ferrari is special... the boxers are ok to a point on track, fun on a mountain run, and painful in city traffic ... and hot. TR;s are great in the city, but tight turns are not fun, and magical on a mountain run... and a bit of a hand full on track.... the looks have come full circle and are now in vogue again.
     
  11. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    Well, it is certainly true that the McLaren F1 is a masterpiece. No doubt about it; and my, oh my, it has the right engine and one that makes the right sound.

    Rgds
     
  12. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Rookie
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    That's my favorite era of Ferrari design: 355/360/430; 456/550/575M; and the F50. Once I got my 456M perfectly sorted out, it was perfectly reliable. Two 4K mile plus vacations without a hiccup. Now sorting the 360. :)
     
  13. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran
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    The definition of a: "Mid-engined car" (From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design ):

    "A mid-engine layout describes the placement of an automobile engine between the rear and front axles."

    Location of engine:

    Ferrari 612 Scaglietti: Between the front and rear axles
    Ferrari FF: Between the front and rear axles
    Ferrari F12: Between the front and rear axles
    Ferrari F12 TDF: Between the front and rear axles
    Ferrari 812 Superfast: Between the front and rear axles
    Ferrari GTC4Lusso: Between the front and rear axles

    Since the introduction of the 612 Scaglietti, all of Ferrari's "standard" V12 cars have been mid engined - They're just front-mid engined rather than being rear-mid engined.

    ;)
     
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  15. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Rookie
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    Because it wasn't contextually obvious that he meant mid-rear? :)
     
  16. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 Formula Junior

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    Anyone reasonable on here understands what I am referencing. Still, for anyone unclear, what I am regrenceing the engine behind the driver.
     
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  17. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB Formula 3

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    Donkey in da back...or is that more of a 911 :}
     
  18. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Rookie
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    Didn't they get longer and larger anyway? Would it have to be longer than today's cars or just longer than the BB/512's?
     
  19. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    My guess is that it is still not considered practical today, because the V-12 Lamborghinis still use the "reversed engine" as disposed on the Countach in 1972; although this might also have something to do with the four-Wheel transmission, which the gearbox between the passengers is favoring?

    Rgds
     
  20. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Rookie
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    The LaFerrari power unit is very, very long. The electric motor hangs out behind the axles.
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    The 512 BB transmission is much more compact, but still long.
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  21. nerofer

    nerofer F1 Veteran
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    The electric motor hanging behind the axles is clearly bad for the "short polar moment of inertia" theory.
    The transmission of the BB /Testarossa engine could have been mounted behind the engine and made shorter by using a "transverse" box, just what Ferrari did in Formula One with the 312 T / T2 / T3 /T4 and T5 ("t" meaning...Trasversale, precisely); but that would have lengthened the wheelbase by at least a feet and a half I guess.

    Rgds
     
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  22. Themaven

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    Very well said, and I agree with all of this! Only one small point: the Maranellos (550 and 575) were actually heavier than the F512M they replaced. I don't have my handbooks with me, but I think by the weight of an adult or so.
    To drive, you would think the F512M is heavier than the 550, until you get to the point when you are really hooning around some roundabouts/curves (I don't track either). Then, close to the limit, the M feels feather light and magical and the 550, while brilliant, feels brilliant for a heavy car. Though the weight difference isn't enough to make that difference, has to be to do with engine positioning/pivot point behind your head.
    That's blunted with the likes of the 488 as they are just so brilliantly competent. The M was also a car with no PAS and zero traction control. End of an era indeed.
     
  23. spirot

    spirot F1 Veteran
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    I agree with you. the 550's have a much better weight balance - with the Testarossa's regardless of the age, you had a lot of mass in the back and high up..compared to a 550 or 456 for that matter. They both are fun to drive. the 550 much more safe & nimble on the track ...
     
  24. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Rookie
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    I had my 456M out for a track day shakedown when I thought I had it perfectly sorted out, and the driving instructor must have said more than five times, "I can't believe how neutral this car is!" So easy to drive at the limit.
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  25. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    As others have said, the flat 12 layout had nowhere to go for packaging reasons. They could sell more expensive iseable front engined V12's. teh front engined V12 had historic mystique.

    However, as we saw with the pantera and some F1 cars, 288 and f40 you can hang part of the the transaxle behind the rear wheels so length is not an issue, and the engine can sit low. Someone here has even shoehorned a flat 12 using this layout into a 355.

    Cost could be another factor, what does a F50/612 V12 weigh and cost top build vs a V8. If today you could get a NA V12 488 and the turbo V8 one, ill bet the v8 will outperform the 12. However a V12 in classy 458 body, with manual, while more expensive and slower might be more desireable for some. How many would they sell, how many aventadors are sold each year.

    I heard a Laf and a P1 runnign ont rack. On sound alone the Laf takes the cake by a mile. Thats the advamatge of a V12, smoothness and sound. These are very valid subjective factors. In todays world though i am not sure a 12 is really perceptably smoother than a 8.

    Yep it would be really great if ferrari sold a "clasic" series of mid engined NA v12's with stick and maybe no ps. All the pieces exist in the ferrari parts bin.
     
  26. kizdan

    kizdan F1 Rookie
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    A regular production mid-engine 12-cylinder at $1 million?!?! I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous. If Ferrari was offering one at the moment, it would be priced at pretty much what the front-engined 12-cylinders go for now. Key words here: regular production.

    Enzo always said that the horse should be in front of the cart - which are the words I heard a lot when they decided to go back to a front engined 12 in the 550.

    I think that Ferrari also wanted more differentiation from the mid-engine 8-cylinders. There is also a packaging issue, as both the BB and Testarossa were incredibly cramped - easily the most uncomfortable Ferraris for me to drive (am 6'-2"), whereas when the 550 launched, problem solved.

    Having said all of that, I would still love to see one!
     

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