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Why the 250 GTO?

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by ag512bbi, Feb 25, 2018.

  1. Must see the interview we did with Piero Ferrari in Maranello! https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/news/297
  1. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    I'd like to further educate myself on WHY the 250 GTO is considered the most significant/important/valuable Ferrari Ever.
    What was it about car, that makes it a $50MM car today?
     
  2. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    - Looks
    - Status as the final Road/Racer
    - Powerful
    - Contemporary racing success
    - Ease of use (comparative)
     
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  3. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
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    And very few produced.
     
  4. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    Everything everyone else has stated but with an emphasis on the gorgeous, voluptuous looks from every angle.

    As far as the numbers produced, there are many models of competition cars that have fewer production numbers. So, looks plus the competition history in one of the more glorious decades for sports car racing is my answer.

    If you were to research the demographics of the current batch of owners, I think you would find that many of them grew up in the sixties.
     
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  5. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Looks = Preference
    Powerful: there were more powerful cars being made right after, So why aren't they worth more?
    Ease of Use? Really? Honestly. I Just don't know. I never drove one. Really? It's an easy car to drive?
    Race Success? Ok, true but weren't there other Ferraris more successful?
    Very Few produced: A lot of other Ferraris were less produced than the 250 GTO.

    Final Road/Racer is the only one that I can say: Good Point.
    The other reasons doesn't (to me) make it a $50MM car.

    Not being obnoxious at all, i'd like to get to the nitty gritty reason Why it's worth $50MM.




    Here is a quote of mine from a different thread.


     
  6. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
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    I don't get the prices either. There are other more successful race cars from Ferrari and other manufacturers and they are not worth as much. I also don't get why the '66 LeMans winning GT40 (P/1046) sold for $22mm in 2015 either while these and McLaren F1 GTRs go for more than that.

    The GTOs are beautiful cars though.
     
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  7. TTR

    TTR Formula 3
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    I'd imagine that only meaningful or practical answer could come from a person having actually having paid such sum or an owner having refused it.
     
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  8. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Small number made, competition success, and you can drive it to the track.
     
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  9. tifoso2728

    tifoso2728 F1 Veteran
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    The funny thing is, most of these huge transactions are private sales. It's not like it's a few maniacs with money unlimited showing off at an auction. These are carefully thought out purchases.
     
  10. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    May I add its all about the perception that the GTO ticks ALL of the value boxes, including a few no other 1950s and 1960s classics can. To expand

    Its a Ferrari TICK
    Its got a V12 engine TICK
    The final road/ race Ferrari thats truly usable (a 250LM is quicker but hardly comfortable, especially two up, and a 250GT SWB is more comfortable, but not as quick) TICK
    It is relatively fast but not too fast to remain usable (300bhp and lightweight) TICK
    Its beautiful TICK
    The last true GT racer (arguable because even the Shelby Daytona is more racer than road car and anything after that required slicks, although it is a loose tangent) TICK
    Competitive (it beat every competitor before the Shelby Daytona came along in late '64/65) TICK
    Its rare TICK

    I believe there are two functions, one is the commodity value which says that for something this rare, when someone pays $50, you pay $55 and the next guy $60 so everyone perceives they can't lose. Secondly I would return to ticking all the boxes, for example, if it was a product of any other manufacturer, it would be worth half to a third of what it is, ditto for a 6 or 8 vs a V12 (hell a 196SP is a $10 million car, its 250TR61 brethren $25 - 30 million - you really pay for those extra prancing horses....)
     
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  11. mcimino

    mcimino Formula 3
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    As they say.. its only worth what people are willing to pay. Aside from all the reasons listed above, its a beautiful piece of artwork you can look at, listen to, sit in and drive, making you feel alive with all the excitement of the Ferrari magic.
     
  12. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Veteran
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    I gave up trying to understand the vintage thing long ago. Give me something modern and competent that I can take on vacation.

    You couldn't even give me a 250 GTO... well, you could, but I'd sell it and get and F50, 599 manual, 430 manual, 612 manual, Cali manual... you get the idea.

    I have a 1980 308 GTSi just because it was on my bucket list. It's fun to toodle around in and pretty, but it's a pig in parking lots and slow.

    The 360 manual is much more civilized and exciting. The 2000's are my favorite decade for Ferraris. After the manuals, meh.

    Glad people preserve these old cars, but very much not my thing.
     
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  13. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Rookie
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    I might add that the GTO represents an end of an era too.
    For Ferrari there is still a very strong connection to the production street cars in the componentry.
    For the era it was still of a time when many of the drivers were "gentlemen racers" versus the full pro that depended upon racing to make a living.
    Every GTO had a racing career. And, the wins were internationally significant.
    It was the final development of the classic 3 liter V12.
    Rare but built in enough volume that they can be almost attainable with the right amount of money.
    Not sure how much it matters but as the Cobra and Cobra Daytona coupes came along they held their own in epic battles against the might of Ford's $$
     
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  14. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    I'd also mention that they were conceived when Ferrari was pretty much dominant in all forms of racing they entered. A car from a manufacturer at the top of its game. Not to mention the kind of people who drove them...
     
  15. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    And...(very important!) its the entry ticket to the Universe of the Happy Few......
     
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  16. Banzai!

    Banzai! Rookie

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    IMO, the GTO is not the most beautiful, nor the most successful Ferrari ever, but it embodies the essence of a factory race car, built for a private entrant. It contributed to the myth and helped shape the legend of Ferrari. And it did this by being a major part of a significant chapter in the company's history, in an era which is highly romantisied today. To me, they are priceless.
     
  17. NürScud

    NürScud F1 Veteran

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    Maybe because they don't know about the 335 S Spider! The 250 GTO became a fashion, that's the truth. I believe that there are many more Ferraris with great history than the 250 GTO, like the 250 TR and 250 LM etc.

    IMHO the most beautiful car it's not the 250 GTO but the Miura SV.
     
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  18. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Partly I agree with you. The GTO -IMO- is a very beautiful car.
    But it combines the race- and GT-genes perfectly. Perhaps there is only one more Ferrari who offers that: the 250 SWB. The GTO is a very nicely balanced car and so also the average driver was/is quite good in it. All other cars from Ferrari are either more race-car or more GT-car (and most of the earlier GT-cars of the 50s handle like trucks). Then - the maintenance of the GTO is quite simple. The later race-cars telling a different story here...
     
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  19. amc

    amc Karting

    Apr 9, 2009
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    old school
    hype combined with investment opportunities
     
  20. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
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    I think this is a combination of top of the line racing history ie culmination of the 250 concept with front wheel drives, and looks.

    Of course there are cars that are rarer, and more specific racing history like 250TR and 250 LM. But they are more specialized so GTO were the graal already 35 years ago when I started to collect!

    There is the myth they are easier to drive and race, but apart from Clive Joy and Monteverde, who is racing LM today? I raced mine and found it much more exhilarating to drive than the SWB, but how many people have really pushed them even remotely close to the limit? Same applies to GTO , very few owners are really racing them.

    So it’s all about the myth, the legend, the looks and yes the club.

    But we should remember that when I started to collect, Bugatti Royale where top of food chain and a Bugatti 55 was considered the epitome of both good looks and sports machinery.

    Times change and may be at some point people will think that a Porsche 917 or a 512S ( disclosure : I am biased) or a Mc Laren F1 GTR are the most significant combustion engine race vehicles ( which by that time will be banned except for demos like steam engines!!)
     
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  21. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Pierre,
    yes, the LM is the much faster car. I drove both, GTO #3809GT (on a small circuit near the Nuerburgring) and LM #6217 in Spa Fancochamps.
    I found the LM gearbox very tricky in lower revs and I had problems with the offset seat position. The LM is a much more advanced car and in high speeds it goes perfectly but it is not very forgiving. But as a package of drivability, performance etc. I liked the GTO more.The GTO is a more amateur racer and the LM is something for those who are able to take no prisoners...

    Yes, since the ol`glory days of the Ferrari-/Maserati Challenge are gone (thanks to Ferrari S.p.A.:mad:) not manyFerraris are on the circuits anymore.

    Have fun with your 512S!
     
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  22. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie
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    When was the last time a Royale was openly offered for sale and what would be the range for one in the current market?
     
  23. Banzai!

    Banzai! Rookie

    Mar 1, 2013
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    I never said it wasn't a beautiful design, I just think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've always preferred the Dino 206 SP over just about anything else. To me, the rest of your description kind of falls under my "factory race car, built for the private entrant" comment.
     
  24. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    Back in the 1980s the Bugatti Atlantic and Royale were hitting $10 million US when the GTO was still $2 million and the Porsche 917/512S/M were sub $1 million although the GTO climbed to almost have parity by 1990. During the 1990s the GTO climbed from sales in the $3 - 5 million range in the first half of the decade to $6 - 10 million by 2000. Other than a dip when the GFC struck in the late 2000s, the GTO is now a $35 - 70 million car while the Royale is likely to be $20 - 40 million depending on coachwork and the Atlantic possibly $30 - 50 million although the Bugatti prices would need to be market tested. What has changed dramatically was the 917K and 512S/M with sales in the $1 - 2 million range in 2000, the 917 hitting $5 million in 2009 although the 512S/M was still $3 - 4 and now both are $15 - 25 million with true Gulf 917s somewhere above that. I note that any McLaren could be bought in 2000 for around the million dollar mark and now they are $15 - 25 million.... and likely to rise.

    The last auction sales were in 1987 at $9.8 million US for the ex Briggs Cunningham Kellner Coupe, the Blackhawk collection Double Berline failed to sell at a "The Auction Las Vegas" sale for $6.5 million in 1986 and the Binder Coupe de Ville sold privately to VAG/ Bugatti for $8 million in 1999. The Kellner Coupe was sold privately again at least twice via Robert Brooks/ Simon Kidston/ Lukas Huni in the early 2000s in a similar $10 million range............. Generational change has seen the pre war market stall since although the Williamson Atlantic sold for $35 million in 2012 which was the same range very good GTOs (3505 and 5575) sold for that year.
     
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  25. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    What is the highest a 250 GTO has actually sold for?
     

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