Why The English Don't Design Ferraris - 1952 212 Inter Coupe S/N 0165EL by Abbott

Gee I think we are being way too one-eyed here . That Lancia is pretty but the original E-Type Coupe is a good looking car also, as was the C Type.

For example: The last front engined Ferrari to win Le Mans is hardly a good looking car. The CanAM P4's are ugly and so on.
Pete

 

A matter of opinion, Pete.

 

Amen ... this whole thread has turned into opinions .

I was just trying to defend the British a little. The problem with most low volume British cars has little to do with looks but the stuff underneath ...

That is why I wouldn't buy an Aston Martin myself ... a Jaguar is a better engineered car because they made more and thus it had to be, and an English Ford is debateably better than both ...
Pete

 

Pete you are absolutely right given that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

There is another picture of 212 Abbott, a little bigger, and a picture of a model.
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After seeing this picture I wonder if this car was meant to be a gag gift. It wasn't issued on an April 1, was it?

 

Actually... if the hood were about 2x as long, I think I'd like it. Still wouldn't look like a Ferrari though.

 

If you quote something opus, get it right.

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In 1980 he joined the Mc Laren team and began working on the MP4 (MP4/1), the first Carbon-Fibre-Composite (CFC) chassis in Formula One. The chassis itself was built by Hercules Aerospace (U.S.A.) and quickly revolutionised car design in Formula One with new levels of rigidity and driver protection. In 1983, Barnard pioneered the 'coke-bottle' shape of sidepods still visible to this day.

During his time with the team McLaren became the dominant force within Formula One, taking drivers titles in 1984, 1985 and 1986, with the first two seasons seeing constructors honours and the team narrowly missing out to Williams in 1986 for a third. By the time Barnard left McLaren for Ferrari at the end of 1987 his cars had won 31 Grands Prix for the team.

When Barnard joined Ferrari the team had won only two Grands Prix in the last two seasons and the designer had been able to name his terms. Given a large sum of money by the team to set up a design office in England, Barnard founded the Ferrari Guildford Technical Office and began work on returning Ferrari to regular winning. A lucky victory at the Italian Grand Prix in September 1988 followed in a season of total domination by McLaren, whose MP4/4 had been designed by his successor at the team, Gordon Murray.

In 1989 Barnard pioneered the electronic gear shift mechanism - now known as a semi-automatic gearbox - which was operated via two paddles on the steering wheel. This revolutionary system was considered far too fragile to race and expectations were suitably low, however, Englishman Nigel Mansell took victory first time out in Rio. John Barnard had instigated his second technical revolution, and by 1995 every team was running a copy of the Ferrari gearbox. Two more wins followed in 1989 and momentum now seemed to be on the team's side.

For 1990 Frenchman Alain Prost was signed in an effective swap, sending Ferrari favourite Gerhard Berger to McLaren. Everything now seemed to be in place, and Barnard’s 641/2 took Prost to five race victories, but once more both titles fell to McLaren and he opted to leave the Italian team and join Benetton.

John Barnard’s B191 took only a single race win in the hands of Nelson Piquet After completing the B192, in which Michael Schumacher would take his first Grand Prix win, John Barnard left Benetton after a dispute with team boss Flavio Briatore over money.

After working for a short time on the still-born Toyota F1 project, in mid-1993, Barnard returned to Ferrari, who were once more in a slump, having failed to win a single race since the designer's departure three years previously. Once more Barnard was able to name his terms and opened a new technical office in Surrey named Ferrari Design and Development (FDD). From his UK office Barnard began work on the 412T1B which ultimately returned Ferrari to the top of the podium at the hands of old team favourite Gerhard Berger.

Barnard continued to design Ferrari's Formula One racers for four seasons, including the 412T2; which took Jean Alesi to his only race win. By 1996 however major changes were underway at the Italian team. With Berger and Alesi removed, and reigning world champion Michael Schumacher installed as lead driver, team manager Jean Todt set about building a design office in Maranello. Unwilling to re-locate to Italy, Barnard's 1997 F310B was to be his last design when Todt appointed South African Rory Byrne as Chief Designer and Englishman Ross Brawn as Technical Director. In the summer of 1997 FDD was purchased from Ferrari and became B3 Technologies ending Barnard’s association with Ferrari. Although no longer part of the team, the designer's F310B chassis took Michael Schumacher tantalisingly close to the title and his victory at the Japanese Grand Prix was to be the last for a Barnard car.

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I wouldnt say it was that much of a disaster...would you. Given the state of Ferrari F1 at the time. Credit were its due.

 

It doesn't look like a real car but more like a cartoon, truly!

 

What parts do you think it is made from??

Morris minor bonet and grill [hood]

Morris minor rear side windows

Alvis TD21 front wings

Land Rover series one windscreen

and the back ?? who knows it could be Noddy's car. only joking

pic's are of a morris minor and Noddy
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It's my understanding that the original color of the Abbott body was a shade of purple with silver flashes!


Personally I don't think it is that bad. There atre actually quite a few uglier Italian cars. Look at some of the coachwork done by Boneschi, for example...


http://www.autopassione.it/alfaromeo/1900/images/1900_SuperSprint_Astral_Boneschi_1953.jpg

 

Opus, the reason why the technical centre was held in England is because it is similar to your sillicone valley. All the F1 expertise was around that (Guildford UK) area and John Barnard knew that. F1 revolved around the UK. Technology was new (carbon fibre etc) and Italy had none. It was in the doldrums and had nothing credible.

JB argued that if he moved to Italy, he would still have needed to source major products and expertise in the UK anyway. He even had to source the tub from you yanks because they were the only ones that had a full size autoclave.

You also seem to forget that he was aslo responsible for getting the structure set in place as well, something Todt recognised when he went there.

Sure he never reaped the rewards he desired but did have limited success & did sew the seeds for Postelthwaite, Southgate, Todt, Brawn & Byrne

 

At the risk of thread hijacking, I'm respectfully going to continue to disagree.

Barnard's tenures were a wasteful diversion of resources and talent, Ferrari's strength as designer and builder of both engines and chassis was subverted and retarded. Chassis and components outsourced from the US and UK could have just as easily been specified and ordered from an office sited next to the suspension, engine and cooling systems designers' in Maranello, rather than a secluded country garden in England.

Barnard's indulgences came at a great cost of time and money.

The results speak for themselves: When Montezemolo and Todt brought everything back in house the greatest period of dominance in F1 began.

Had the bifurcation not occurred in the first instance Jean Alesi might have been champion, rather than having just one fortuitous win.

 

Opus, you forget whole chunks of information. The CAR was designed in Guildford. Some components where built at the Ferrari factory but were designed by JB. Alesi and all were never champions because the engine never produced the power over the Honda engines that dominated that era. The chassis and handling of the cars were on par, if not better than the McLaren, but the engine lacked the grunt and moreover the fuel ecomomy. All too often they had to slow down to save fuel.

You also seem to conveinently forget that Prost was very successful, had it not been for the misdirection of Scalabroni they may have done a little better and won more. He was the technical director and acheived his goal, blame others for the failures.

So sorry to disagree and hijack the thread but you need to get the facts right. It does say "why the English dont design Ferrari's" well they did and as the masters of F1, there is no reason to doubt the influence us Brits have on it.

Here is a overview of events from 1988

The 1988 season was a disaster. The McLaren-Hondas were totally dominant and in midseason the internal politics at Ferrari finally came to a head. Enzo Ferrari supported John Barnard's desire for the team to switch to V12 engines, while his son Piero Lardi Ferrari, Piccinini and Postlethwaite wanted to continue with turbo engines. Ferrari ousted his own son and gave the management of the racing team to a FIAT man Pier Giorgio Cappelli. Postlethwaite departed to join Tyrrell. Piccinini stayed on to look after political issues but he was no longer running the team.

In August Enzo Ferrari died. A few weeks later at Monza Ayrton Senna's McLaren stumbled over a backmarker and retired from the race and Berger and Alboreto finished 1-2 for Ferrari. It was the only non-McLaren victory of the year. By then FIAT had taken over the running of the team. Piccinini disappeared. Pierguido Castelli was appointed technical director overseeing Barnard's activities. There was immediate friction between the British and Italian ends of the operation and Ferrari began to look for someone to replace Barnard. The team also hired Nigel Mansell to replace Alboreto.

In March 1989 Cappelli was replaced as head of the racing department by Cesare Fiorio, formerly the competitions director of Lancia and Alfa Romeo. Barnard's new 641 appeared in Brazil and Mansell won on the car's debut. Berger was fortunate to emerge unscathed from a fiery accident at Imola and was not fully competitive until the autumn. In June the team announced that Enrique Scalabroni would take over chassis design from John Barnard for the 1990 car. The team was later bolstered by the arrival of another McLaren engineer Steve Nichols, while Paolo Massai was put in charge of engine development. Castelli remained technical director. At the end of the year Alain Prost was hired to replace Berger.

The 1990 season was not a success. Scalabroni and aerodynamicist Henri Durand were soon dropped and Nichols was put in charge of chassis design. A political battle developed between Fiorio and Prost. The Frenchman won five victories (Mansell won one) but he was beaten to the World title by Senna, who ran him off the road in Suzuka at the end of the year.

Mansell departed at the end of the year and Ferrari hired Jean Alesi to be his replacement. At the start of the 1991 season Senna's McLaren-Honda was completely dominant and Prost managed to engineer the departure of Fiorio. Fiat appointed a triumvirate to lead the team consisting of Piero Lardi Ferrari, Piccinini and Claudio Lombardi, the latter running the team. Castelli remained as technical director.

In October that year Lombardi fired Prost after the Frenchman made critical remarks about the car.

The lack of success at the team prompted Fiat to put Luca di Montezemolo in charge of the entire Ferrari company. Castelli was transferred to a new job in Fiat. Lombardi became technical director with Postlethwaite rehired to head the chassis design department. Nichols left to become technical director at Sauber. Alesi was joined by Italian Ivan Capelli but he failed to impress and was himself replaced at the end of the year by Nicola Larini. In August 1992 after another season without wins Ferrari rehired Barnard and a new British base was established. Postlethwaite was put in charge of the production and the race team while Lombardi was moved to head the engine department.

For 1993 Ferrari rehired Berger to partner Alesi but the car was still unable to compete with Williams-Renault. In July Montezemolo named Jean Todt as the new sporting director of the team. A few weeks later Postlethwaite left and was replaced by Valerio Bianchi from Magneti-Marelli. There were signs of improvement but the only success came when Berger won a fortunate victory at Hockenheim. At the end of the year there was another technical reshuffle with Lombardi and Bianchi being dropped. Gustav Brunner was named head of the chassis department with Barnard as chief designer. Lombardi was replaced as head of the engine department by Paolo Martinelli.

The new Barnard-designed Ferrari 412T2 was more competitive but the only success came when Alesi scored a lucky victory in Canada. The gradual improvement meant that Ferrari was able to attract Michael Schumacher for the 1996 season and as Berger refused to stay as his team-mate Ferrari hired Eddie Irvine from Jordan.

The new Ferrari F310 proved to be a disaster with major gearbox trouble at the start of the year but Schumacher kept the team's hopes alive with virtuoso victories in Spain, Belgium and at Monza. At the end of the year Ross Brawn was appointed technical director, with Barnard as head of design and development and Martinelli remaining in charge of the engine department. Brawn then hired Rory Byrne to be chief designer and Ferrari agreed to sell its British design operation to Barnard. The F310B was reworked by Barnard for the 1997 season and Schumacher was able to win four races and challenge Jacques Villeneuve for the World Championship. The German driver tried to drive Villeneuve off the track at Jerez at the end of the year and as a result was disqualified from the World Championship.

The first Byrne-designed Ferrari arrived in 1998

 

Barnard was the best F1 designer of his period no doubt (funny how Gordon Murray gets so much more credit), BUT in a team where politics will always come first it was not a good idea to separate the team and create the English department.

Jeam Todt's biggest success was to unite the Ferrari team and stop them wasting time hiring and firing every five minutes.

Prost should have won the WDC with the Barnard car and it is rediculous that he was sacked for saying the truth. In the end Ferrari should have said yes sir no sir to Prost and sat him down on the ground and built a car around him to suit his skills 100% ... just like they eventually did with Michael Schumacher. No point having the best driver in the world if the car does not suit his driving style.
Pete

 

The point i am trying to make is that Barnard and GTO was not to blame for its failings.

The appointment of Luca was the catalyst that seperated the politics from the racing team. He was the shield which allowed the team to develop and progress without inside interference and internal power struggles. (remember EF had just died) Look at the interim periods between the GTO, it was a disaster because the whole concept of car design and structure was removed, there was no stability. Engineers where hired on talking a good job with very little proven track record.

So the man to thank was Luca, he knew what it was like to run the racing team,supported it and kept the politics that has hounded ferrari for years away from the team. Had he not been there, Brawn,Byrne,Todt and Schumacher would have been subjected to the same crap as Barnard,Prost,Mansell etc with possibly similar results.

 

...Then another implied the English-deigned Ferrari F1 cars were somehow successful and laudable.

Uhm... Source?

The Barnard Ferrari F1 cars were anything but 'masterful'.

 

Bit of a lark then, really, and I, for one, am not convinced.

 

This one?
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Yep to both. Even the number plates agree!

 

I read the spat about Barnard with interest and some amusement. You would think from it that he was the only Englishman to design Ferrari's F1 cars. In fact, our protagonists are completely overlooking an earlier example which completely destroys the theory that "the English don't design Ferraris" - Dr Harvey Postlethwaite.

The late and much-missed Harvey came to Maranello at Enzo Ferrari's personal request in 1981, because the team's chassis technology had fallen badly behind that being developed in the UK and Postlethwaite's use of honeycomb monocoque construction on the Wolf WR7 had made him one of the more noticed innovators.

Postlethwaite delivered immediately. His 126C2 - as pretty and as nimble as its Forghieri-designed predecessor, the 126C, had been ungainly and ill-handling - won the 1982 constructors' title for Ferrari, and would almost certainly have taken the drivers' title as well if first Villeneuve had not been killed, and then Pironi gravely injured, in terrible accidents. In 1983, Postlethwaite's follow-up, the 126C3, retained the constructors' championship, while Arnoux remained in with a chance of the drivers' title until the final round.

After that, Ferrari fell away again, although Alboreto was championship runner-up in '85, but F1 was going into a period of dominance by McLaren, whose cars were then designed by some fella called Barnard.

In complete contrast to Barnard, Harvey Postlethwaite happily went to live and work in Maranello and immersed himself in the lifestyle there, where by all accounts he was much-loved. After Barnard supplanted him towards the end of the decade, he returned to England to work for Tyrrell, where, although the team was in long-term decline, he made perhaps his most lasting, if arguably infamous, contribution to F1 design, with the Tyrrell 019 - the first raised-nosed Grand Prix car. He did return briefly to Maranello, in the early 90s during the second Barnard era, before heading back again to Tyrrell. He died in 1999 at a test session in Barcelona while directing an abortive Honda comeback.

Harvey Postlethwaite - proof that Englishmen have indeed designed Ferraris that were both successful and attractive.

 

Though I should add that, in my opinion, the Barnard-designed 640 ticks the boxes on both scores too - indeed, in terms of looks I think it is one of the most beautiful GP cars ever built.

 

Er, Prost very nearly won the WDC in a Barnard Ferrari ... if Senna had not taken Prost out he might have very well won.

Pretty good cars IMO those Barnard Ferraris.
Pete