Why the giant runoff areas instead of gravel traps?

But the principle is the same, surely?

Consequences or no, I don't see how you can have it both ways?

+1

Cheers,
Ian

 

Good thing I'm here to set you straight.


On so many things.

 

One is a legal boundary the other a warning.

See above.

 

Agreed.

Even today, I believe the rule is that all for wheels need to go over before it's a track limits issue. In that image, he's just clipped it with two.

Penalties should apply at a very defined limit. Two wheels over is fine and acceptably pushing the limit (losing grip and traction on dirt with off-track tyres but perhaps allows you to squeeze by with momentum), but four is not as then no part of the car is on the track anymore. That's a clearly defined legal boundary in racing and you need those otherwise it'd be an unregulated and dangerous free-for-all.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Indy had painted lines with plenty of room for a car to go under and terrible officiating of it, was a frustration to watch an old TV broadcast because of it.

In NASCAR, they have a no pass below the double yellow on their restrictor plate tracks. Zero tolerance outside of perhaps dodging a pack of wrecking cars.

Either enforce a rule, or don't have it on the books IMO.

 

I was being a little facetious there, sorry....

And some here are saying that's 'two off' and should be illegal. Sometimes, seems it's all 4 off. Other times, it can be done with impunity. Yet other times, it'll bite.

Yes it's a grey area. But I still maintain it's *always* been that way. Depends on the track. They'll all push the boundaries, and indeed, always have. It's just a part of racing. Sure, these modern Tilke domes often allow it a little more than they should, but it's the same for all and they're just trying to find the fastest line......

I for one do know I don't want yet more races to be decided in the stewards office - Let them race, dammit! [As I've said, qualy is different - I have no problem with times being thrown out in that case, but in the race, let 'em at it IMO.]

Cheers,
Ian

 

Ian if the edge of the track, for example was a wall they would not be able to cheat AND the racing would be just as awesome. I'm not saying that we should erect walls around the tracks, I am making a point that you are wrong that good racing and pushing the boundaries requires the drivers to cheat. It doesn't.

They simply should be penalised. I have no idea how but getting an unfair advantage is just cheating ... end result is they all have to do it to be competitive which effectively means they are redesigning the track ... just ping them, it would stop immediately and we would all be happy.
Pete

 

I beg to differ. As I've said before, the dice between Fred & KI at Silverstone last month would not, indeed, could not, have happened around, eg, Monaco or Singapore. Doesn't mean the racing in those places sucks, it's just different.

I guess I just don't see it as 'cheating' the way you do. Sure, throw out their lap time if they do it qualy, I can go with that, but in the race, particularly when they're wheel to wheel, they're just trying to go as quickly as they can under those circumstances. Some places they can get away with it, other places it can bite them, hard. They'll drive accordingly depending on the track layout. Again, it's the same for all and it's also something they've done forever - Sure, the modern tarmac run offs allow it more than in days past, but it is what it is IMO.

Again, I don't see it quite as black & white as you. Should they be penalized for riding the kerbs? After all, they mark the edge of the track, and they bounce into & over those all the time - Is that 'cheating' too? Not IMO, they're again trying to go as quickly as possible given the configuration of that part of the track. Sometimes it's essential to a quick lap, other times it can break the car (see Phil, Abu Dhabi (?) a few years back). They know they can get close to the wall of champions in Montreal, indeed, they can kiss it gently, but they better not hit it too hard.....

I don't want the stewards deciding races! Let them race! It's not an unfair advantage if it's available to all.... You're right, some places on some tracks they can 'redesign' a little in order to go faster. Where's the harm in that?

Cheers,
Ian

 

I hope you are not involved in any sort of sport, and hopefully not in an official capacity.

I find your interpretation of the rules quite .... immature, to say the least.

I may have inadvertently open this debate by mentioning my distaste of current racing standards, by I never expected to be confronted by someone claiming that flouting the rules was OK.

I am so glad to have seen GP in its Golden Era (60s), when it was less controversial and standards were higher, at all levels.

 

Rules should be rules.
How is that wrong?

 

I too well remember the 60s. There was as much controversy back then if you remove the rose tinteds.

'Standards were higher?' I think not. There weren't as much tarmac run off areas which made it less prevalent than today, but even back then they'd go over the lines if it made them quicker.

I, and it seems the powers that be, namely Charlie & the stewards are also OK with the rules being 'flouted'. I'll agree with the Viz that maybe the rules need to be rewritten, but that's a different debate. All I'm saying is let them race and don't impose silly penalties when they're pushing the limits. Not 'immature' at all.

Cheers,
Ian

 

If video games have thought us something is that the only way to win races and increase the spectacle is to cut off-track. F1 should learn from a much more successful enterprise.

 

When they "short-cut" one of these tarmac'd areas due to late braking or being pushed onto it they get one of two choices, had the position back or get a drive through.

I don't want to see the return of gravel , then a SC to control (slow) the race until the car is cleared .... BORING !!!

I also don't want to see what happened at Silverstone with Kimi using the run off to get an "advantage"

I think Charlie and the boys have got it close to right by letting them race without ruining the spectacle by penalising one or the other for racing each other.

I've been pushed off the track, come back , and no-one said to me you need to come in for a breather, .... it's what happens when you are going balls out to get in front, and I ride the rippled curbs all the time as do ALL the other drivers and the course marshals don't have a problem

 

+1

Do it in qualy, that time doesn't count. I'm fine with that.

Gain an unfair advantage, give it back. As you should. (Or, as you say, suffer a penalty.)

But pushing the envelope in the race should be 'tolerated' IMO. Particularly when there's two (or more) of them going at it hammer & tongs.

It does also seem Charlie is trying to address it some - Big ass kerbs seem to be popping up in places where before there was just tarmac. And that's fine too.

Other places, there's walls - They don't it there! But when it's wide open and they 'stretch' it, I really don't have a problem. They can all do it after all.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Okay, I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying here.
Pete

 

Wow! Thanks Pete!

Nice to know that occasionally opinions can still be swayed a little.

I know some disagree, and that's fine of course, and maybe the rules need changing some, but as Moretti noted, in general I think they've got it about right, at least in this case.

Much better than being told I'm immature and shouldn't be involved in any sport......

Cheers,
Ian

 

I'm not too concerned when they come in the corner so hard they slide out bit over the line. Bring decent aero back and end that if it's an issue.

The large runoff areas are a different animal all together... two different things. In the old days, if you screwed up you either hit a wall or got buried. Either way your race was done. On one hand, I certainly don't want the risk of a driver getting hurt nor do I want to see them out simply because they ran really wide. However, there is something to be said about, in some ways, having very little penalty for driving poorly or making a big mistake. Some of the tracks, the cars go off waaaaay off and just hop back on...sometimes not even losing as much time because they cut the corner... not to gain, but certainly lessening the loss so to speak.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems some guys say what the hell and run it into the corner with risky effort knowing that the gamble could pay off or at worst, they lose a spot and simply rejoin.

 

Sometimes, sure, that was the case. Not just walls either - Ascari put it into the drink in Monaco back in the day!

However, in the same kind of timeframe as that, they often ran on airfield circuits with the track delineated with straw bales.

I've seen (videos of) those straw bales getting pushed back as the race progresses..... Should those guys have been penalized for touching a bale of straw? It's 'cheating' after all.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

if you're agreeing with me Ian you had better consider your opinion

I'm never right ... just ask my wife

 

The drivers can't win on this forum, if they go for it and try overtaking using all the track and then some they're cheating but if they staying on the track and don't overtake it's boring

 

How parabolica looks like right now:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BubQQU0IgAAZ4Ax.jpg:large

Go off line and you'll hit the gravel first (unsure if they will keep it gravel or put grass in instead), so punishment is inevitable.

Looks about 2-2.5 meters wide too...

 

Lets just hope it won't become astroturf though.

 

It's interesting to note that it's on the first part of parabolica that has tar run off...the part where one actually starts running towards the line is still gravel.

Fantastic news, the actual challenge of the corner is absolutely NOT affected.

 

I *really* hope you're right. Obviously. It looks that way in the pic, so we can remain hopeful for now at least.

However, according to Pitpass

Hopefully we'll see some more pix soon.

Cheers,
Ian
A sad day at Monza - Pitpass.com

 

Some more pics, and an article by Roberto Chincerro:

Pronta la nuova ?Parabolica? - Autosprint

Chincerro is apparently a very credible source .