Will Ferrari respond to The Senna and should they?

Until then it’s business as usual? Well, THEN it is definitely too late. The success of tomorrow does not come out of nothing.

 

Exactly. Demand for Ferraris is stronger than ever before and their line-up is universally praised for both its performance as well as its driving appeal. It's really the exact opposite of a crisis.

 

It is changing, dont kid yourself. There are a lot of people out there buying Lamborghini, McLaren and other vs. Ferrari. I have had numerous people tell me they are done with Ferrari. They are not the best at anything these days except for marketing. They do still make beautiful cars but performance-wise, reliability, etc they are not the top dog. Add to this the BS sales tactics. I recall when you had to wait a year + to get a new Ferrari, this is not the case anymore unless it is a special version that they only give certain allocation for. When you are #1 you only have one way to go. Personally, I still have a passion for Ferrari and love my FF. I will probably buy another F car at some point.

P.S. Auctions are selling rare, vintage cars which has nothing to do with the current market and cars.

 

I think the Senna is a bit of a red herring. It's ugly in photos, still a 4L turbo V8, possibly the same one in the 720S. It sounds like other MACs and listening to the launch video was incredibly underwhelming. Despite the £750k pricetag it's unavailable to the general market, like the Valyrie. The one they auctioned for charity went for £2.4M - totally unattainable. K'eggs are also so expensive they are similarly unattainable. Don't know what "Vision One" is but it will likely be unattainable as well. These cars are toys for billionaires or near-billionaires, never meant for the general market. Even 812s are literally unattainable because they make so few, you'd probably have to wait more than 2 years for one. I gave up on contemplating when I heard how many my dealer managed to get for next year.

I think Ferrari can't make more 812s because of CAFE restrictions. All their other offerings are already turbocharged ... just like the Senna, other MACs, K'eggs, Huayra, Merc Project One. I suspect they do not sell enough turbo cars to make any more NA V12 cars... and they do not want to make turbo V12s. Ferrari can't make £750k-ish (NA engine) cars because they're already stretching CAFE limitations and still can't make enough 812s. Making a £750k-ish turbo Fcar would send a very bad message to the Tifosi.

IMO, aside from NA V12s, the only palatable and practical future Fcar PU would be hybrid like KERS but the battery technology is probably too expensive and not there yet for the general market. So I think there currently isn't a palatable "green-ish" engine technology for Ferrari to make cars in the "über" 812-ish price range and they can't make any more NA engine cars.

 

I'm not sure how Lambo continues to make the n/a V12 get by on emissions year after year, but parent company VW probably helps them a bit with the testing.

I agree with a bunch of these halo cars being unattainable by the "regular" wealthy people. Hopefully it's cyclical and this supercar craze of buying/flipping/hoarding ends and true enthusiasts get a shot. I'm not saying all of these supercar owners are not enthusiasts, but it's frustrating seeing a 2-3+ year old car being sold with delivery miles. I wish they were isolated incidents, but it's not uncommon to find those cars advertised.

 

I think the true cost of halo car ownership, aside from depreciation if used "too much", is in the maintenance of the low-volume, high-technology behind the cars, especially the current hybrid ones. The complex technologies involved in maintaining them result in significant labour and parts costs. This is part of the reason why even the regular non-collector V12 cars depreciate so much after warranties and free maintenance programs expire. So low-volume, high maintenance halo cars will likely never be truly affordable for the "regular" wealthy people. They are bleeding edge for good reason.

IMO, Lamborghini would have gone bankrupt (again) if AUDI (VW) had not bought it out, 100%, back in 1998.

Since Lamborghini is part of AUDI, hence part of VW, it probably uses the CAFE credits earned by AUDI ... probably also credits earned by VW which also owns the even more economically marketed SEAT, Skoda...etc. brands. I believe this was how Ferrari was able to sustain its focus on naturally-aspirated performance over CAFE concerns in the past, when it was still part of FIAT, and later FIAT-Chrysler. But Ferrari is no longer part of FIAT-Chrysler and has to manage CAFE requirements all by itself. Penalties for missing CAFE requirements go into millions of dollars, which is a big deal for Ferrari, which is in reality a small company. CAFE fuel economy requirements get steeper and steeper as the DOT and EPA continually increase their pressure on the car industry.

V12 Lambos also tend to be quite wide. The Aventador is 81.2" wide vs the F12 at 76.5". Bigger footprints result in lower CAFE fuel economy requirements because they are calculated using the literal footprint of the car. Cars with bigger footprints get a break on CAFE fuel economy. However, this factor is probably less important since 1998.

BTW, I'm obviously not an expert or even read-up on the CAFE system so perhaps other FChatters can add to the discussion and even correct me if I am wrong.

 

Might be part of the push to the Urus, with its turbo V8. I thought I read that they were expecting it to be almost half of the vehicle lineup for Lamborghini.

 

My take on this is simple.

What we have here is a heavily biased track car which can be driven on the road but because of that its a compromised track car by virtue of the need to be road legal. I really don't see the point of this car at all, added to which the car is extremely ugly to my eyes, a miss mash of seemingly every McLaren ever made.

In my view the need to chase lap times is the most irrelevant aspect to a road car, do you really care what time a car does around ABC track, simply because most of us don't have the ability to do that time anyway. McLaren and to an extent others are leading the supercar down a path of "number", numbers meaning more than the actual driving experience.

700 bhp or 650 bhp, who is really going to notice the difference? There is a point where cars in general are becoming so fast that perhaps only 30% of the performance is actually usable, the Senna is a classic example of this.

If I were Ferrari I would let this segment go and rather look at something moderately powered (these days that means 500 bhp) and light weight.

 

Although I agree that they won't, every company's product strategy is formed by their competitive environment. Otherwise they won't last very long......

 

The 488 is easy to get now because it's approaching its end of life, it's always been the case.
I doubt you could show up at a Ferrari dealership and get a new 812 delivered in less than one year from now, and it's not a limited edition.

 

I am sure that is true with the 812 but the 488 is 2 years old -16' and 17', 3 more years left I believe.

 

Cannot see the need for Ferrari to respond to the Senna it is frankly hideous

 

Maybe we should get a little more distance to the question if Ferrari needs to respond. Regardless of any McLaren offering the question is if that’s actually an attractive market segment to cover. What exactly is that market segment, are we looking at that segment from a price perspective or at the extremely track-oriented purpose of the car. I think both directions offer interesting thoughts concerning model policy besides the never ending talks about SUVs or a new Dino.

 

I obviously haven't driven it but can only comment on the looks and definitely not a fan, have a couple of friends that had one on order but are thinking of backing out...

 

Not surprised. Aesthetically speaking, It's just a big mess, no matter the angle. If the 570 and 720 were, let's say, controversial due to some design choices, this one is a failure from that point of view. Makes the SCG003 look like a beauty queen and that's another car that follows the same philosophy.

 

First time I saw it I thought I was looking at one of those sloppy renders for a generic hypercar. It might be functional (expect some other laptime fiasco here) but it's too ugly.

IMO Ferrari needs to do nothing about this specific car, but many of you are right that the mythical status is *slowly* eroding because the competition is notable and very right that new generations will not see sports car brands as we see them now. So Ferrari should *slowly* work on that. IMO they're still doing OK. They're still at the top of their game but they cannot relax nor take anything for granted.
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Well, it depends. Those who value the stopwatch over the high street will like the Senna...

That said, Ferrari has nothing to fear. They don't produce such a car after all, so there's no competition whatsoever.

One can look this car as a Viper ACR. It's a track car with license plates. Nothing more, nothing less. Why is an Ariel any better aesthetically? And this comes from a Ferrari fanatic who passionately dislikes Maccas!!!

 

Its hard to make a direct comparison because the companies are so different. I see McLaren as a technology company that happens to make road cars. Ferrari is a racing team that makes road cars to cover their racing costs. Ferrari makes engines. McLaren buys engines. Ferrari has more differentiation between its models. McLaren has more similar elements between models. Every McLaren model is based on the same basic formula of mid engine V8 turbo.

My reaction to the question is Ferrari already has a car that occupies this market segment: F12tdf. I know its not a mid engine car (well front-mid), quite different, but in the Ferrari line up, it is the car that slots between the LF and the production flagship (F12/812). While I would not be surprised to learn the McLaren Senna has the performance edge, it is really a challenging design to love.

These are all street cars. They are very powerful and amazing, but still street cars. So although numbers are important, they are not the only element. Some people buy cars based on looks alone. I think most of us are a mix. I think its in the area of aesthetics where McLaren really struggles. I see their cars (post F1) as lacking style. That's something Ferraris are oozing. Every McLaren I've driven, I've been impressed, but I get out and never have a desire to look back and say- wow, I just drove that! So as fast as these McLaren's are, they don't capture my imagination the way Ferrari does. I see them more like really nice, higher end Nissan GT-Rs. And I think the Senna even looks a bit like one.

As I see it, there's almost no reason to produce a new model that directly replies to this one. I think Ferrari just needs its 488 VS to get into the Senna's neighborhood. I have a feeling the Senna is a testbed for the 720 "LT".

Bottom line is we are living through a golden age of cars the people from the prior "golden age" could have never imagined. We have a lot of choices- there's something for everyone. I appreciate the technical excellence McLaren has displayed and the some of the new Lamborghinis are pretty cool too. But they are not appealing to me.

 

The way I understand it the Senna is a track car that happens to be road legal but it's quite compromised as such.

 

Right, so if it is only about numbers, like a race car, then none of the street things like styling, should really matter. But the minute you make it road legal and sell it as a road car, I think its a different brief entirely. The appeal, in my opinion at least, has to be beyond the numbers and specs. However, that's just my opinion, and some people might take a look at this and say- wow! I've got to experience that! The numbers are impressive as is McLaren's growth in a very short time.

 

I didn't want to say anything for a week, as I think McLaren designs tend to grow on me as time passes (happened with the 650, 675, 720 even 570). My first reaction was that is is absolutely hideous and I told my local McLaren dealer who also suggested I wait... A week later and I actually like it. It is obviously not a beautiful car, but it is exactly what it was meant to be: a track giant, a car where everything is designed for a single purpose and that is definitely not driving on the public road. My single biggest concern is that the car will be undriveable on the normal roads...The front overhang is huge and even a lift system won't make it easy to drive over speed bumps. Reminds me of how hard it was to use my Carrera GT in London...Those seats will also be hell over longer distances.
At the end of the day I don't think the 500 people who will get one care about those things at all. It is a special car and it will sell out quickly (I believe all cars are "allocated" but not sold to new owners, McLaren is picking out the last lucky ones). If I were offered one I would take it too...
Ferrari does not make such a car, it is not part of its line up strategy and I am not sure it HAS to build something like that either. Why chase McLaren in McLaren's game? Ferrari regular road cars provoke a more emotional reaction from buyers and focusing on making inspiring road cars ensures that it will remain ahead of McLaren on sales numbers (which is all that matters to them) for a long time.

 

One could argue that Ferrari's XX versions of their supercars could be compared to something like the Senna, although Ferrari's versions, of course, are not road legal.........

 

Did they respond to the Mac F1 in 1992....no. Same with the Senna - they'll keep milking the badge for the hypercars. A 488VS, on the other hand, definitely needs to clear the 720S in terms of numbers

 

The 488VS or whatever it's called probably won't clear the std 720 let alone the LT version but we will know soon. Easy enough to turn up boost in those turbos but that means they will need to upgrade the drivetrain as well to cope with the extra torque. I bet Ferrari will be in the $400k+ range optioned.