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Will there be a F12 "HGTE" Announced at Frankfurt in September?

Discussion in 'FF/Lusso/F12/812S' started by Ferro458, Mar 8, 2015.

  1. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    3,735
    Cheshire
    With 800+ of these being built, the chance of zero flipping is, well, zero...
     
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  3. patekswiss

    patekswiss Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2014
    1,174
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    Lorenzo

    Look, there is nothing really wrong with flipping. It has social utility, like ticket scalping or the grey market. When a producer charges a single uniform price, secondary selling helps goods get to those who value them the most.

    I understand why Ferrari doesn't like flippers and goes to such lengths to frustrate them -- one of Ferrari's biggest intangible assets after its brand is its customer relationships, and it wants those to be as direct as possible.

    What I understand less is why Ferrari doesn't try a more efficient allocation system. Who says they need to sell at one more or less uniform price? Why not sell these new LEs the way that older ones are sold -- via auction?

    I know the classic objections to auctions (not the least of which is the risk of a failed auction!!!); just suggesting that the current allocation method has its own problems (opacity, random luck, suspicions of cronyism, some necessary arbitrariness) that make an alternative at least worth considering. :)
     
  4. AutobahnAndTrack

    AutobahnAndTrack Formula Junior

    Dec 31, 2014
    307
    Frankfurt, Germany
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    Stefan G
    I would even buy a F12 VS on secondary market without buying it, just to be able to drive it :)
     
  5. dcmetro

    dcmetro F1 Veteran

    Nov 27, 2007
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    Paris , France
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    Olivier

    May I ask what flipping means ? (English is not my first language)
     
  6. Blackbird4life

    Blackbird4life Formula 3

    Jul 8, 2005
    2,031
    I think it means buying a car and making money off of it. For example I buy a car for $1 and sell it for $4, the $3 is the flip?
     
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  8. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    Flipping is trading for a profit immediately after taking delivery of it, be it a car or a property and other things as well.
     
  9. Entropy

    Entropy Formula 3
    Owner

    Jul 10, 2008
    2,151
    Have held off jumping into this thread....might be time after the official unveiling at Mugello to actually get back to discussing the car...

    "Flipping" is essentially acquiring something (a car, a house) with the intent to re-sell it for a profit, typically very quickly.

    "Flipping" houses is popular in the US; someone acquires a property, typically does some level of improvement, and remarkets and sell the property for a profit. Given the level of investment, speed is typically important (i.e. the property is not being acquired to be held for long-term appreciation).

    Flipping with cars tends to be less about value-add and re-marketing, and more about taking advantage of a privileged position (I.e. you have access to a certain vehicle at a certain price), then remarketing the car to people who do not have access (or, who do not have the desire or patience to wait for access), typically at a premium.

    As an example, someone in the US who can buy an early 488 Spider would purchase the car at MSRP (say $300K), then re-sell it to someone who 1) cannot get an early car 2) doesn't want to wait for an allocation and 3) is willing and able to pay a premium. Another case is someone who has a high-demand/low-supply car, purchases it from a dealer at MSRP, holds the car for a period of time, then literally trades it back to the dealer for MSRP (or more), so the dealer can re-sell the car at a premium.

    Ferrari (at least in the US) requires dealers to sell at MSRP and closely manages allocations. They have also required dealers to comply with their sales rules/policies, and asks clients to agree to "right of first refusal" to allow the dealer first crack at the car should they decide to trade/sell. Generally speaking, Ferrari cares a great deal about WHO gets to buy their cars, and tends to at least influence that, if not almost control it via allocating supply.

    US dealers can sell a USED car for the market price (which can be well above MSRP), but they have limitations on that, and even their "almost new" models that suddenly emerge as "used inventory" receive some scrutiny.

    While a "free market" allows someone who buys and owns a car do with it what they want, Ferrari and their dealers can also decide who they will sell a car to (or, who they won't). In general, and particularly for high demand/low supply cars (eg. LaF, Aperta, etc), there is a double-edged sword. On one hand, the intense (but short-lived) "flipping" market increases the buzz about the brand and increases the perceived value; on the other hand, a wildly speculative market can alienate long-term, highly invested clients who sustain the brand itself and whom the brand and the dealers have relationships with.

    It's a bit of a game, and the rules are not published, but it's easy to understand. As a Ferrari client and fan, I've learned it and it's worked out well for us over time. As a business executive and a bit of a libertarian, I completely understand and in fact respect their need to do this. As a car guy, I hate speculators and short-term profiteers...I can't blame them for wanting to make a buck, but I tend to live cars as things that are driven vs. pieces of art that are trophies. I say, brag about your high mileage, not about your resale value.
     
  10. dcmetro

    dcmetro F1 Veteran

    Nov 27, 2007
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    Olivier
    Thank you very much Entropy & Traveller
     
  11. 911C4S

    911C4S Formula Junior

    Sep 21, 2011
    385
    i do not want to complain about flippers at this point since i might need them (or rather, one of them) rather sooner than later, if i do not get an allocation:::)))
    peter
     
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  13. scuderia92

    scuderia92 Formula Junior

    May 23, 2013
    338
    Any news on when the unveiliing will be?
     
  14. redcar1

    redcar1 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
    625
    austin, tx
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    Mark
    Seems like Mugello World Finals Nov07.
     
  15. greyboxer

    greyboxer F1 World Champ

    Dec 8, 2004
    11,170
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    Jimmie
    Yes: 100 posts ago !
     
  16. Traveller

    Traveller F1 Veteran

    Apr 10, 2009
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    Tim
    Good luck but dont waste a call on me!
     
  17. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 11, 2013
    9,786
    Excellent posts!
     
  18. George330

    George330 Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2009
    1,105
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    George
    They can also sell the way Lexus sold all LFAs. 2 year lease contract during which you do not own the car. The solution is quite easy, so one wonders whether they actually like all the flipping and the associated hype. Also if they don't want cars to be flipped they can sell to die hard Ferraristi who keep their cars for years. They know who they are, many of them posting here...However many of those people are not glamorous and they are not perceived as brand-enhancing...Unfortunately I can name dozens of LaF, Enzo and other LE buyers for whom it was obvious from the beginning that they had every intention to flip the car. They got it, they flipped it and they got the next LE car immediately after that
     
  19. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Feb 21, 2001
    3,622
    New ones still available (sleeper collectible?).
     
  20. Hoodlum

    Hoodlum Karting

    Sep 8, 2014
    59
    Wouldn't it be difficult to maintain that customer relationship via an auction platform? I'm just thinking that what ties most buyers into a dealer isn't how well they run their ebay page.. although that may be a piece of it; it is the specific interaction between staff and clients and how well they can deliver on customer orders.

    Granted, the auto industry for the commodity cars really seems to be on a direct to market trajectory where dealers are going to be squeezed in the near future.

    Of course they could go to a silent auction through dealer proxy-- but you would end up with the same claims as currently encountered.
     
  21. elipinski

    elipinski Formula 3

    May 14, 2006
    1,390
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    Emanuel
    #2218 elipinski, Oct 8, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  22. elipinski

    elipinski Formula 3

    May 14, 2006
    1,390
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    Emanuel
    BTW- the HELE is now standard, you can not have the car without it, but it surely can be disabeled fortunately
     
  23. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 6, 2004
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    PNT6 GTO in Canna di Fucile? Did you order the roof painted that color like a GTO style?
    I like the black and with gold wheels sort of 70's style!
     
  24. elipinski

    elipinski Formula 3

    May 14, 2006
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    Emanuel
    no, thats a transverse stripe on the bonnet
     
  25. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    OK thank you for explaining that detail! I kind of liked the idea of a different color for the roof but I see what you mean now....
    Thank you for sharing the specification on this and your (Rosso Corsa) example to.
     
  26. M-individual

    M-individual F1 Rookie

    Oct 5, 2007
    2,937
    GTO, 458C, GT3RS
    Will be a stunning looking one E ;)
     
  27. George330

    George330 Formula 3

    Oct 19, 2009
    1,105
    Switzerland
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    George
    Not sure, but I bought one because I think it is special
     
  28. patekswiss

    patekswiss Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2014
    1,174
    New York City
    Full Name:
    Lorenzo

    I don't think so. When I say auction, I'm just referring to the price-setting mechanism -- and the idea that you need one uniform market-clearing price for every buyer. I didn't mean that you need to have the impersonal aspects of an auction or that it would impede the customer relationship. Art houses do auctions and they are very, very high-touch with their buyers.

    With the current system, when Ferrari decides you're a "good" customer, they are selling you two things for your purchase price: the car you are buying plus a lottery ticket, with reasonably high odds, of access to future LE models. And that's fine. Maybe Ferrari views themselves as being paid for the cash they leave on the table with LE cars by not using an auction by this "goodwill" component that people pay to buy their cars. Maybe they feel that it encourages repeat business. It's a business judgment call. I'm just saying that the approach has costs too, one of which is its opacity and all that that implies (some broken china among the customer base).
     

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