Will there be a NEW manual transmission Ferrari model?

I think it's called "badge engineering" - sticking a Ferrari badge on an Alfa.

 

I read once of a very few 599 F-1 cars that were converted to a 3 pedal manual setup. Anyone know how much that costs? Was the conversion satisfactory? Just wondering ...

 

I would not protest a modern reincarnation of the Dino brand. I would argue this sub-brand would need to be 4 cylinders and all-electric to help offset CAFE standards for the Ferrari line. Being only 4 cylinders and/or electric should limit brand dilution as well.

 

4 cyl will negate the product desireability, might as well get a 4c. Even if a 4cyl has the power, no 4cyl mtoor feels premium or has that smooth running. Ill contradict myself by saying we now see 4 cyl cars with 400+hp and the weight savings make sense, still a great v6 feels like a 12. Electric still has the weight issue and stamina issues which negate a purist sportscar.. What your'e describing with todays tech is a BMW i8.

Cafe rules are not an issue, its just a function of paying the fine per car which is added to that car price, as ferrari does now.

In europe the rules require an improvement in fleet average which a tt v6 would do. As to whether its a dino subbrand I will guess that many of us dont care what its called. Personaly though I think ferrari woudl do well to call such a car a ferrari simply because a "real" sportscar would do the brand/product line well as opposed to yet another really fast Gt.

In reality what we hear is there will be a 600"hp TTv6 car, built on a shortened 488 replacement platform. In other words somehtign akin to the current 488 in performance, possibly we may see a "purist" version of this car but dont hold your breath, and it still sounds like +3000lbs..

While the 488 replacement gets electric asist and goes after the Mcalren 720. Thus the cycle of ridiculousness of ever increasing unuseable paper performance continues

 

Kinda like the Cali was an abandoned maserati porject?
You know the Alfa tub is designed by dallara, and the V6 motor is a ferrari V8 minus 2 cylinders. I think thats great provenance and far from badge engineering..

 

I am not sure that one act of badge engineering justifies another - two wrongs don't make a right. A stack of Peugeots were designed by Pininfarina, but that doesn't make them Ferraris.

 

Yep first and foremost a ferrai motor makes somethign a ferrari,(the alfa v6 is actualy a ferrari motor and is going into a future ferrari anyway) exterior design makes aferrari, suspension does and chassis does. the only Alfa bit I am suggesting be retained is the tub, and thats not really Alfa anyway as its designed by dallara, Ferrari could do its own slightly different version of the tub.

The peugots where mechanicaly in every way a peugot coupe so really not quite the same example at all.

 

You can't have it both ways friend. Either you make the Dino brand low end enough so it doesn't cut into Ferrari sales. Or you don't do it. If you make a $100,000 "Dino" with the performance, looks, and support of the Ferrari brand.....(we all see where I'm headed)

Ferrari currently has low production manufacturer exemption from CAFE (<10,000) - not sure about Europe - but I've read they have a similar exemption. This will need to be confronted once they go over 10,000 as they've said they desire. You're right, they can pay the fine -- but it's a public company now that has much more interest in the bottom line.

 

Lest see, the new TTV6 ferrari that is being planned will be a 280K car, the 488 replacement slots in above that.. I am sure there is room in the ferrari brand for a $180-250k car?

As tot he cafe fine, lots of manufacturers pay it. For an exotic all you do is add an irrelevant 3-5k tot he price to cover the "fine" which is really just a tax.

For Europe thye needed to show a 20% co2 imporvement hence the turbo route.

I think its petty clear though thta to meet future european and chinese regs they will have to have some form of electrification.
All of which sadly measn heavier more bloated overpowered cars.

When the f40 came out they said it was the last such possible car due to impending regs.

The Cf tubbed TTv6 light "dino" or whatevr one wants to call it has a limited window of production too. If alfa saw a buisness case at $75K, the same formula with a Ttv6 nicer body better/proper suspension should make sense for ferrari at 200K?

Ferrari is imo throwing market opportunity and standing away, due to short term arrogance.
They absolutely should be making a front engined classic v12 with a stick and a convertible.
If aston can do these things why not ferrari..

 

I just don't understand why they'd want to make a cheap Ferrari to compete with Porsche, et al. when they sell each and every expensive car that they can build.

Why build a stick (unless an option) when you can just carry existing Paddle technology over? Current new car customers don't drive stick anyway.

 

Exactly, besides isn't that was Maserati already is for?

 

I just think the magic of the modern Ferraris is in the tight integration of their systems and full driver control of the engagement of the drivetrain would negate some of this. Thus, it really doesn't make sense for them. That being said, I would sure love to see a V12 NA stick shift car- I just don't know if it really is the right business case for Ferrari.

PS- I know they can make the V6 really wonderful, but I don't like V6 engines in general. Please keep it to V8 or V12! If it has to be 6, I'd rather go with an I6, but then, you might as well go for the full monte V12!

 

The only chance of getting a manual in a Ferrari is if it's attached to a V6 everything else is way too powerful - IMO

 

N/A 3.0 litre V8, 6 speed gearbox, 2600 pounds, no nannies.

 

That you control with the right foot, the amount of slip you need, skip shifting, and still electrifying in the times you have ahem, runway. Not everything is wide open throttle which gets you in trouble as equally in a Miata or in a McLaren so I'll hold on (literally) to the power.

That's my man! Other cars that check all the boxes will have to do and help appreciate the gated Ferrari's for that they are and what they aren't.

 

Almost there. 2.4 litre V6.

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Nothing to do with porche, more like keeping/attracting customers who are stepping into a Maclaren 570 $200k. I would bet that once someone starts at Maclren they will have pretty good retention rate.

 

Did some research.
the gearbox in the 458/488 and cali comes from getrag as does the one in the amg sls.

 

A stick Ferrari will do NOTHING to retain the MacLaren customer. Nothing. And why do they care if the customer goes to MacLaren anyway.. .they still sell all their cars? A luxury brand dilutes their brand if they sell to everyone as many as they can.
What you DO see with MacLaren that you don't with Ferrari is astronomic depreciation. 2012 and 2013 models for the price of a 430! $30k for a steering rack in the MP4? That lack of demand and lower prices for the used MacLaren models tells you about the buyers. They're moving onto other models, just like the Cayenne. Leased then onto a Lexus or Jaguar SUV.

 

Exactly, Mclaren said no McLaren buyer wants a manual.

“These days, people are educated to the fact that it’s faster to drive with paddle shifters or the DSG gearbox, especially people who have been buying sports cars for a long time,”
-John Paolo Canton, spokesman for McLaren in North America.
2017

 

And also BMW M. But they choose their gear ratios and programming. Sooo much of these cars is now in software.

 

I understand. I've never said they are exactly the same, on the contrary - I agree with you they are different. My point is that they are not different enough that it would be akin to starting from 'scratch.' The 'R' transmission is still a bit different than the one required for the GT3 'RS'. The software part needs to be coded:

"The biggest hurdle, of course, was electrical. Tecce said that wiring and coding easily took up half of their man-hours on the project."

Ferrari can do anything they want, and they can easily offer a manual if they want. No contest. (either theoretical, application, or philosophical) so no need to debate on things I agree with you on.

The area where I think you have a hard time accepting is by doing so, Ferrari will make less money. Could this be paid for in dividends for the community, PR, and long term value? I don't know. I do know that by offering a manual in their everyday models, it becomes a short-term profit reducing proposition.

 

Youre under some serious illusion that they can sell all the cars they can make or want to make, this is simply not true. Their factory can produce 10k units now. Any of their cars that is not a first year gotta have it or articifial special/collectable can be ordered and dlelivered for msrp with a reasonable wait. Two years ago they reduced production to "mainatin exclusivity" in other words maintain tension between supply and demand in the market becasue there were less customers not more.

I think the conversation here has moved on from a mere stick to them offerign a car below the 488(which as a point of fact they are going to do with a ttv6). Additionaly a number of us would like a car thats alive to drive, and many of us would prefer it to be stick also although thats not as critical as how the car feels and rives in genral(ie modern ferraris are as exciting as a hynudai when driven below 9/10ths.) Concurrent in the whole conversation is also the question whether just adding a stick to the current lineup would be desireable and whetehr it is financialy and sales wise worthwhile. In otehr words would there be enough sales to provide a roi and how much woudl a stick lift sales of an existign model.

If Mackren didnt exist those sales would be going elsewhere. If ferrari had a 250k car below the 488 and mclaaren didnt exist probably ferrari would already be at 10k units. Theyre not at 10k units because the real demand for the limited scope of their sportscar product is not there. Its also my opinion that once someone buys a Mcalkren they are far more likely to move up the Mclkaren ladder than move over to ferrari. This is anotehr reason to offer a competitive car to the 570 because Mclaren is absorbing and rechaneling potential future 488 f12 etc customers.

Its different at porche because918 exceptted porche ends pricewise more or less where Mcalren and ferrari start, so peopel moving past the 200k porche are moving up the ladder to Mclaren or ferrari and are like;ly to then stay with one brand or the other.

lastly ferraris who road car brand is built on two foundations. F1 cred and driver cred. this begats 90% of their sales to a customer base who may be fans but are mostly not really drivers at all, they own ferraris for many other reasons.. Therefore it is argued that ferrari might do well to try re-court the more hard core driver, with a more live car, and or a stick shift. Plus its about time ferrari made some cars that were kick ass to drive on road and track and purchasebale, as opposed to paper fast Gts that can turn soem great track numbers not that even 1% actulay are used as such..

 

Bottom line, i think ferrai will watch porche with the the Gt3 and may come to the conclusion that the least expensive way to add another 1-2k units is to do a stick.

they may well aslos conclude as ducati did that the superbike/supercar(488) market ahs mnay natural limits and a classic range using existing componanats will fill out the line nicely, and support the brand.

Faerrari is looking for sales and profits, fort those of us who love the drive for its won sake this can be a very positive outlook..

 

The arguement that ferrari will make less money presupposes that there is not a good return on ROI and that stick sales are not net addtional sales.
If stick cars are the same cost to produce as paddle cars (actualy a bit less), and if offering a stick leads to a net sales increase(even with some slight paddle decrease) then ferrari makes more money.

Therefore we might ask, can they sell enough sticks overall to amortise the cost of developing the stick. Some with actual experience have posted that the development(coding) cost is minimal and the trannys are outsourced anyway, seems to make sense at 2k units for porche, even aston offers a stick on some models which have far lower takeup.

My bet is the sucess of the Gt3 stick, and the search for maore sales/profit will prompt ferrari to come up with some excuse as to why they are bringing back the stick. I also think that for a stick to be sucessful it needs to be well integrated with the motor/platform, have a dleightful feel, and nice clutch, otherwise its like the porche 7 speeder which sucks. The few I know who have tried a 599 stick say it sucks, and the 430 stick is debatable.

A stick ferrai to me is more than just a slapping stick on an existing car, its a more hard core/driver focused sub model developed with unique charateristics of which the stick is but one, think cayman Gt4. BTW Gt4 sales doubled overall cayman sales.

Heres hoping the return of the "pure" drivers ferrari