Will we ever see engines larger than a V8 in F1 again?

Yes sir I would and thank you for allowing me to elaborate. Firstly now that F1 has a 'universal ecu' parameter's could be set for such an application that will conform to set rules. Secondly the cost of a higher displacement/# of cylinder engine cost more money in manufacturing. The rpm can be set much lower while still allowing the same hp output and the rotational load would be lower leading to less costly rebuilds or cost of parts. A n/a engine produces hp via displacement and rpm correct? Yet a turbocharged engine can produce the same if not more hp by increasing the volume of air/fuel. Sorry I think you already know the concept of air/fuel/spark so I digress.

Simply put I think manufacturing cost could be saved while still keeping the hp with turbo's yet there are alot of other considerations and cost to be considered, I'm just a boost head yet thank you for letting me jump on my soapbox.

 

Thanks

Like your theory - but I'm not quite sure that it is borne out in practice. Without getting too statistical and only using anecdotal evidence the lack of turbocharged engines in normal production cars would suggest that they are not less expensive. Some specifics too - if the RPM is lower for the same horsepower the rotational load will be increased not decreased and therefore stronger parts will be needed. In the same vein fewer cylinders means fewer main and big end bearings so the load on them will clearly be higher (to generate the same power) and therefore they will also need to be stronger/heavier etc.


PS: my soapbox is NA

PPS: In general I'd like to see a little more freedom for the manufacturers and am not sold on the universal ECU concept.

 

Thank you for correcting me on points of which I had backwards.

 

The problem with all recent F1 engines is that the high RPMs permitted make the sound far too shrill to be enjoyable. Even the last Ferrari racing V-12s like that in the 333 SP didn't sound as good as the earlier engines did. Until a rev limit of no more than 13,000 RPM is enforced (and that will probably never happen, unless they ban pneumatic valve actuation), the sounds will, IMHO, be compromised.

The best sounding racing engine I ever heard in person was in David Livingston's 1969 Ferrari 312 F1 car (which had the 1968 spec engine). At a SOVREN July-4-weekend event at Pacific Raceway in Kent, Washington a number of years ago, he elected not to run competitively, but was granted his request of doing solo exhibition laps during the racing lunch break. I was standing about 8 feet away when he fired up the V-12 (with self-starter, which the cars had in those days), and every blip of the throttle as he warmed up the engine made a shiver go up my spine! Once he took to the course -- and he drove the car quite fast -- the sound of the engine echoing off the trees only added to the effect. You could tell exactly where he was on the course even when you couldn't see him. And as he was wearing a helmet painted identically to Chris Amon's, the visual effect was there also. (Sorry for the poor quality of the image, but it was scanned from a slide with a cheap scanner.)

I think that V-12s should be permitted again in F1 with a lower rev limit enforced.
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In your opinion - Which is fine of course!

Personally, I *love* high revs and "shrill" sounding engines - *Awesome*! I even have a screaming V10 as my ring tone - Freaks people out

Cheers,
Ian

 

I think the '90s 3.5L V-12s and '00s 3.0L V-10s had the most exciting sounds ever in motor racing. It would probably be too much to ask to go back to more cubes at this point, since you'd have to handicap the engines to stop them from topping 1000 HP! I want to hear them rev gloriously, so I wouldn't have a problem with 2.4L V-8s at 22,000 rpm!! I think the higher revving V-8s are the future and they'll reach 1000 HP once the restrictions are lifted.

Regarding turbos, it would be difficult to limit the massive HP potential of these with small engines, since the need to rev and produce boost for big power, resulting in an on/off powerband---if they were highly limited, you'd have a low boost 1.5L with no torque and no top end either---a piece of junk. The solution would be a lower pressure turbo with say a 2.4L V-8 designed to make 1000 HP and superior torque to the 1.5L, I would love to hear this with open wastegates!! The open wastegate is what truly makes a turbo car sound thrilling. This would be much less of a wild beast than a 1300 HP, high boost, low compression 1.5L I-4!! The obvious problem is then, how do you allow the teams to push the envelope, i.e. be at the pinnacle of motorsport, without ending up with 1500 HP turbo engines again? It would be nearly impossible, thus I don't think this will happen. There is always Le Mans for turbos I guess.

 

I dont think anything sounds better then this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYGWcsxqOJQ

 

Looking back though, it was more exciting when everyone could run whatever setup they wanted, wasn't it? The turbo guys could have I-4s, V-6s or even V-8s and you knew they'd be running GIANT HP for qualifying. The NA guys typically had V-8s or V-12s and had to hope they could win with race strategy as quali was beyond their grasp.

I like the idea of the technical challenge-----choose your engine configuration, develop your turbo management, etc, fill her up with witch's brew and boost as high as you dare!! That's the kind of innovation that makes F1 great, it should never, ever become a true "spec" series. I'd probably stop watching if it did.

 

+ friggin one! "Let 'em at it!". [This is partly why I still hold out hope for KERS btw - Dons flamesuit ]

I *know* I'd stop watching.

I disagree on witches brews though - That **** got ugly for a while - "Pump gas" only works for me.

Shame it's not going to happen......

Cheers,
Ian

 

You guys are exactly right. It's getting closer and closer to "open wheel NASCAR" = IRL, where it will be a SPEC series.

I say, let the teams and manufacturers do whatever they want. If they want to run twin turbo v6s boosted to hell, let 'em. I would love the competition from an engineering perspective. I think all of us who watch F1 don't watch it for the passing/crashing, we all enjoy the technical sophistication of the sport.

David Hobbs said it best - "If you want to see a buncha passing and whatnot, go watch NASCAR. This is Formula 1. Bring back V12s."

 

As long as they are racing, passing, I dont care what sound they produce.

 

Could not agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say let them develope what ever car they like... give them a 1 liter engine size normal aspriation, .5 Liters turbo... open it up to 18 - 16 cyl... let it all hang out!

 

Not sure that Matra had a 16cyl ... BRM did an H16, think Matra did V-12 only.

 

Matra did a V12, I had the pleasure of seeing and hearing those, great sounding engine!!
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Unfortunately this does

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuGmAJnh1kA

 

I was fortunate to be at many of them - Including, IIRC, Silverstone when Renault made it's first appearance with a turbo. At the time, we laughed at the "stupid French" (!) - Common wisdom at the time was a 1.5 turbo couldn't compete with a 3.0 NA..... Furthermore, the sound was horrible - I agree, it just didn't *sound* like an F1 engine. However, they got a *lot* better sounding over the ensuing years - Still not V10 like, but not too bad. As I said above, "it's all about the revs" - I suspect (but certainly don't claim to know) that a V6 turbo revving at todays levels would sound pretty cool!

+1

Cheers,
Ian

 

You are indeed correct [That's why I put the "?" next to my original comment of course]. However, it *sounded* like a 16!

Actually, IMHO, it sounded unlike anything else! I really can't find a good example of it running "in anger" unfortunately.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Have you seen this video Ian? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exkLoL1shp0

 

Yep! Thanks for posting though. [It's lifted from the "50 years of F1 onboard" DVD btw]

While it sounds great, it just doesn't quite capture what I'm after..... Maybe I'm just remembering it through rose-tinted eardrums these days!

Cheers,
Ian

 

While we're on the subject of "auditory delights" (Or, at least I am!) Here's one that'll get you thinking:

http://www.billzilla.org/BRM-loudpass.mp3

A big block V8 maybe? I'll post the "answer" shortly......

Enjoy!

Cheers,
In

 

I sure hope so. I miss the howling V10's

 

Awesome vids awesome sounds

 

Yah I had a feeling you were looking for more and I dig the reference to 'rose-tinted eardrums' aka 'Rose Colored Glass's' via John Conlee.

 

Nick Mason's BRM V-16 from "Into the Red"