World's fastest breadvan:

and do we have to use 30 -40 year old fuel and oil too??
These stories like the one of the breadvan make the Ferrari-mythe interesting in my opinion....

 

I find it mildly hypocritical that the guys who decide what is or isn't allowed are generally guys driving 308s (nothing against 308s, mind you).

Just saying, are the real sticklers so because the green eyed monster reared its ugly head?

I'm with JG and CM on this one.

--Dan

 

Now now Dan, don't paint with too wide a brush - Pat Ottis is one of 'those' judging guys, and he is a pretty humble guy. And yes he used to own a 275, now owns one of the most original prewar alfas around. Not because he is rich (doesn't have 2 nickles to rub together apparently), but because he has PASSION about these cars.

I guess you have to figure out where that line is for 'period' body changes. Obviously the breadvan, despite its history, is just seen as another rebodied GTE. There is a line somewhere though, as many of the older 50s cars have had a different body or two, yet its OK to show those. I just don't know.

I admit, this originality thing has raised the bar pretty high - even a color change is not going to be OK at some point.

 

2819 GT left the factory as a 250 GT SWB...

 

Jon,

You're right, but someone's gotta paint strokes opposite of how it's being done now, right?

I have utmost respect for P.O. - no question about it. And there are myriad other examples contradictory to my sentiment, but that doesn't change the trend...

--Dan

 

Has anyone purposely NOT restored a car? I'd love to see a totally original GTO or pre-1960 Fcar running around on the street or on display. A restored car is nice, but you really can't beat an original in good shape!

-Chris

 

There's a 196 here at Cavallino that has never been restored, apparently... It's been tended to when problems arose throughout the years, but it's never been restored...

 

How does it look? How is it holding against rust, etc? I love patina, but I'd be curious about how safe it is depending on what has and hasn't been done...

--Dan

 

nothing has ever been done to 0556(0446)MD except for a coat of red paint in 1960 and a couple of diferent iterations of roll bars as the SCCA regulations changed thru about 1966.

But, Dan is right about the safety issue which presents a tough problem for us as we undergo what we are calling a 'preservation' effort, and not a 'restoration' of the car. We are trying to draw the line by only replacing items that would make the car unsafe to drive. 55-year old Borranis are not safe, so while the rims were examined and x-rayed, only the wires themselves were replaced and the wheels trued. Any rubber, seals, lines are being replaced. All the wiring, whose insulation is petrified and crumbling off, is being replaced. Everything else is just getting cleaned. The one departure from this 'safety items only' rubric is that the car will be repainted to its original french racing blue as it was when Castellotti raced it, but no discernable body work will be done.

One of the tough calls where a decision has not been made is the 40 gallon fuel tank - a work of art in curved metal and steel rivets - also a leaky bomb. Do you have a fuel cell or bladder artfully installed in the existing tank which would require the complete deconstruction of the tank which has a series of internal baffles? Or do you just leave the tank as is and switch it for a cell for tracking?

lots of tough decisions to make even when you establish guidelines - one thing for sure, it will not be mistaken for 'over-restored.'

 

The more I look back over the posts on the Breadvan, the more I am thankful that I am not Ed Gilbertson, or whoever is the new chairman of the IAC/PFA. If you are going to have judging, then you need a yardstick or standard. As much as I believe that the Breadvan should be on the field of every Ferrari show, how in the world do you judge it on a points system? How do you judge it against the three other bone-stock SWBs that park next to it? Do you start with a 10 point ding for completely 'incorrect' body? Once you begin to allow individual exceptions, the exceptions quickly swallow the rule. On the other hand, if someone invited the Breadvan to be on the field then disallowed it, then that is shameful.

Specifically in issue for the Breadvan would be Rule 10 of the IAC/PFA rules:

"10. The key purpose of the concours is to promote the preservation of the Ferrari in its original state. Therefore, the primary focus of the judging will be on originality, authenticity and condition with minor emphasis on cosmetics. Deductions will be made for over-restoration; extravagance detracts from originality. Applied patina is discouraged. Spyder conversions and unauthorized rebodies are ineligible for judging. Over-cleanliness is unnecessary; some slight road dust and wear is to be expected. Ferraris are meant to be driven."

So I guess the question for the historians and judges would be the "unauthorized rebody" part of this rule. I am not a student of this car and have no opinion on how "authorized" it was. As to whether this rule is proper, I guess you could make an exception for the Breadvan, but be prepared for the list of cars that would appeal for the same excpetion based on the hazy measure of "important" or "historically significant." Who decides that on each car?

As for the other issue in this thread of striking a balance between originality versus driveability, I am again glad that I am not making the rules. The IAC/PFA rules governing this topic are #8 and #9.

"8. Routine replacement items, such as spark plugs, filters, battery, window glass, and tires, need not be the exact original brand or type provided that replacements conform to the general appearance, characteristics, and size of the original. Tires with the correct profile should be fitted to original rims and any spare should match unless the spare is an original specially-equipped factory item

9. If a car has unique or unusual design characteristics that place originality in question, the entrant should be prepared to offer substantiating documentation to the Chief Class Judge. Safety-related items that are not original, but which were added for safety purposes, such as seat belts, fire extinguisher, side view mirror, or alarm system, will be acceptable provided the installation of such items is neat, unobtrusive, and does not detract from the original appearance of the automobile. This also applies to audio-visual and telecommunications equipment."

For better or for worse, these are the rules. If the goal is to strike a balance leaning much closer to originality than to driveability, then the debate is whether or not they have achieved it. Any argument can be reduced to the absurd, such as "well, it they want originality, then 1951 air from Modena should be in the tires." Fortunately, this is not the rule. The rules spell out the specific exception allowed from originality. Personally, I do not see how the balance could become any closer to promoting driveability than they already are without opening a whole new pandora's box of exceptions - i.e., a 1955 500 Mondial would stop a lot better w/ disc brakes; it would stop even better w/ ABS. I also disagree w/allowing non-original audio equipment on the vintage cars - I don't think the vintage Ferrari experience is enhanced by a b!tchin' stereo.

the IAC/PFA rules can be found at www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/concours_guidelines.cfm

Anyway, it is a great debate - fire away.

 

Bryan: an extremely interesting, if not challenging, dilemma you face with the car. Nevertheless, it sounds as if you have the right approach.

Best,

--Dan

 

According to it's owner James Mc Neil : GTO s/n 3647 has never been restored
is that right guys.....?

 

re: unrestored 250GTO's, what about 3851 (IIRC), the car that was on the cover of Forza a couple months ago?

 

Hello guys,

been after a vintage photo of the breadvan for ages!!! anyone know where I can purchase?

 

frankly if i were the owner of the breadvan, i would not care a bit whether or not i was allowed to enter graded shows. who the hell cares ! you own a piece of art, that also happens to be a piece of history, that all congnoscenti know about - you could just laugh at the judges!
the whole thing is like saying that you could not enter the mona lisa in an art contest because you changed the frame. all of this striving for points in some contest is just bs.