Would you watch NASCAR more if there were more road courses?

Tillman,

I can see where some people have valid complaints about the way NASCAR is run for entertainment, but to me it's not different than IRL which is also run for maximum entertainment.

The points system, the way some races are ended, and some of the other stuff does smack of a scripted finish.

But to those of you that criticise the drivers and the racing spend way too much time on your X-Box/PSII and most likely have never sat in any form of race car or been on a track.

Watch German DTM, British Touring cars, European Touring Cars, or as Tillman pointed out the Aussie V8 Supercar races. There is more banging and "punting" going on in those races in one lap than an entire NASCAR race.

Whatever floats your boat and I do get bored at oval racing whether it's NASCAR or IRL, but if no other motorsports are on that day what am I gonna watch......

.....a bunch people in expensive slacks wacking the hell out of a small white ball with a titanium stick, or some over weight housewife trying to knock down 12 pins with a big black ball ???????

Sorry but that doesn't get my blood pumping.

Real race fans watch just about anything with four or two wheels. Hell I watch sprint cars for fun on local TV. I gather most of you would consider sprint cars the same way you consider NASCAR.

Cheers,

Jon

 

I think they should just combine Nascar with the Crash Derby. I mean, that's 90% of their fan base. They're just waiting for someone to crash. I think the cars/drivers look out of place on the road courses. The cars just look really sloppy on road courses.

 

Exactly. The only thing about NASCAR I pay any attention to are the crashes.

The cars fly around, tumble, flip, disintergrate and, surprisingly often, burst into flames! Only in NASCAR do the race cars still regularly catch on fire...

Rip-roaring action I say!

*Disclaimer:* Apologies to any NASCAR fans.

 

July 1st, 2:30 pm EST is the replay of the Nextel Cup race at Sears Point (Infineon) on SPEED.

As for more road courses for the Nextel Cup guys, I'm all for it. They've pretty much saturated the market for cookie-cutter 1.5 mile ovals already, and I think most of the current crop of Cup drivers can hustle their way around a road-course pretty well (Jimmy Spencer and Dale Jarrett excepted). It's way more entertaining than yet-another fuel economy run or another caution-lap debacle--they could stand to throw three more road-course races on the schedule and maybe take away any second dates on tracks like Kentucky, Nashville or New Hampshire. Of course, seeing how you can squeeze almost 100,000 people at those tracks as opposed to say, Lime Rock will mean that Kirk Shelmerdine will be Formula One World Driving Champion before that happens, but a man can dream can't he?

As for the reactions of the current Cup drivers, they didn't tar and feather Dan Gurney when he won the Riverside Grand National event five years in a row. And Robby Gordon had to shove his way towards respectability with those guys...something that Scott Pruett, Wally Dallenbach, Christian Fittipaldi and John Andretti weren't quite able to pull off on the road courses.

 

"NASCAR is a pathetic form of motor racing and the only improvement they can make is to disolve and disband itself. This is not going to happen so I take solice in the fact the 99% of NASCAR fans will never know what real racing is about."

That is such a snotty, loser, unlearned statement I don't even know how to respond. What experience do you actually have behind the wheel (or in any motorsports venue) that would justify such a statement?

I'm not a big NASCAR fan (I don't really watch it all anymore but did grow up with the stuff) but I think statements like this are really more indicative of someone's ignorance than their knowledge of any form of motor racing.

I have a good friend that runs a car in the 2 barrel NASCAR series. Just for fun- as it's a much cheaper way to RACE than campaigning a Ferrari Challenge or Porsche Supercup car. I have another who does very well in ALMS running in the GT class. The difference in budgets may be phenomonal but don't think for a minute that NASCAR (even the lesser series) is not just as real or as competitive as any other form of motorsport competition.

Just in case you don't know- racing is NOT a Driver's Education event, a Track Day for wanna be racers who think they know it all, a Playstation hooked up to your TV or your critique of Rubens or JPM because you finally learned what oversteer is.

So let's hear it... WTF do you think you know that the average NASCAR fan doesn't? How much time have you spent in motorsports, in what venue and, especially, behind the wheel, actually RACING? How many NASCAR fans do you even know and what makes them so much dumber than you?

 

LOL, good stuff.

 

Sorry to be of the minority...but I like all forms of auto/motorcycle racing and I WOULD like to see Nascar on more road courses. Of course they don't handle like a proper 'sports' car, but I still enjoy watching the sliding/bumping etc. It's different...

 

I agree with 99% of this. However, in my experience, (and I have a ton of friends who are avid NASCAR fans) the fans of NASCAR are into it because of the competition, the drivers and the personalities, NOT because of the cars or racing. I have asked many of them stats about the cars/speed/racing; generally they know very little about any of those things. So, to answer your question, I would have to say that the average NASCAR knows less about racing (racing terminology, racing strategy, physics of a car at speed, and experience on a track) than the average F-Chat member.

 

Challenge I fully agree with that. I don't think the average NASCAR fan is as knowledgable as most of those who post here- or most ALMS or SCCA fans to cite other racing formats. The average NASCAR fan would probably not, for instance, be able to tell you the advantages of nitrogen over air or the consequences of too little (or too much) negative camber.

But I get a bit annoyed at the snobbery and the easy NASCAR put downs. NASCAR is as intense a form of racing as any I've seen and the fans cannot be classified as a bunch of stupid rednecks. Do I think it's run a bit too much like the WWF (as was remarked earlier)? Yes.

Do I think Bernie and friends might look at it, learn a little bit and take some of that to F1? Yes again.

NASCAR is a long, long way from being "a pathetic form of motor racing". It has its advantages and disadvantages just like other venues.

I may prefer watching F1 but after the debacles at Indy last week even I (a looongtime F1 fan) have to question whether it really is the pinnacle of motorsport anymore. It certainly hasn't been run that way lately.

 

As I stated, after last year's sham of a race at Watkins Glen where Ron Fellows had a legitimate shot at the win and was then subsequently screwed by officiating, I pledged never to watch another NASCAR race on a road course and I stuck to it yesterday.

The only NASCAR events I seem to watch any more are the Daytona and Talledega 500s but even they are to the point now where all you have to do is watch the first and last ten laps to get the whole story.

As for GrandAM, I have little use for a sports car series masquerading as a legitmate series especially after the top official, Roger Edmundson, came out and stated, "We do not care about the traditional sports car fans".

That means, in effect, screw the nearly 100,000 fans that used to turn out to the 24 Hours of Daytona each year in it's heyday, GrandAM is going to turn on a whole new demographic featuring cars which have 25 year old technology, are ugly as a bastard stepchild, create no excitement what so ever and (oh, and while we're at it) the races will be run to NASCAR rules which means they change on a weekly basis based on someone's whim (and) the cars you pay
$400,000.00 for are no faster than the $40,000.00 GT cars.

The fans have spoken and have stayed away from the GrandAM marquis event in droves. 180,000 empty seats look so good on sponsor's advertising
they they completely airbrush the grandstands out (as seen in an issue of the
Porsche magazine "Christrorphus").

The fact that the ISC attempted to shut down the combined ALMS/CART event at Miami (taking every legal means in it's power to do so) was evidence
enough for me to have nothing to do with them what so ever.

Talk about a sham of an event, turn the clocks back to this year's 24 Hours of Daytona where the race was halted simply in order to preserve the win for a
DP car! If this is racing, I will eat it.

BHW

 

Preface this by saying my racing knowledge and experience is but a fraction of some of you. That said, I don't think you have to have actually done something to comment on it.

Last year, in an attempt to be open-minded and even-handed, I tried to watch NASCAR. I watched "Inside Winston Cup" every Monday and really got a kick out of the panel (Michael, Johnny etc.). They, as well as the host Alan, really know their stuff and it made for some interesting viewing.

However, I couldn't make it past the 10 minute mark of watching an actual race.

I agree with cairns in that being snobby and snooty in uncalled for (so I apologize in advance), but after watching about as much as I could tolerate, imho, NASCAR is still just hillbillies driving in circles with a hundred thousand mostly ignorant redneck fans waiting for the next 20 car pile-up.

The Busch/Spencer feud that culminated with Spencer punching Busch (and all the NASCAR pundits saying that the law should not have become involved), as well as the fact that the syndicated This Week in NASCAR part of the newspaper has a "Feud of the Week" section illustrates that these folks still love the Hatfields/McCoys lifestyle. The Confederate flags that are proudly flown at the races (especially the Southern ones of course) are the icing on the cake.

Watching them on a road course is like watching fish out of water. Bringing in the hired guns (Ron, Boris etc.) just makes it worse.

All racing is not created equal. I still believe that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. ALMS is great as well.

Remember last year when Gordon and JPM did the switcheroo at Indy? Gordon himself said that comparing an F1 car to a NASCAR car is like comparing a NASCAR car to a go-kart (or something like that).

I watch and tape every second of F1 coverage, but you couldn't pay me to watch NASCAR or even worse, those pickup trucks that those guys also race.

Again, just my humble opinion.

 

While I would agree w/some of the opinion stated I would give some of these guys a break. Regardless of what you think about the politics and IMO the fact that some of those guys couldn't win a drivers school regional. I would like to see more road racing b/c it shows real talent.

With that said.... you have to have a rather large sack to do what they do on some of those tracks and I respect what they do w/all the other bs aside.

 

i agree. hell, i even watch soap box derby. racing is racing. although i must admit the only nascar events i "watch" are the road races. the laughs just keep on coming. oh yeah, they do race semis i think it's in austraila. it's a blast to watch.

 

The cars used on the road courses are not the same ones they use for left turns only. It's no different than watching the Transam series from the 70's. Camero, Mustang, AMC Javlins, Barracudas and Challengers. Nothing silly about hard flat out racing in cars that don't disintegrate when they touch another car. Very aggresive styles, like Grand Prix racing of the 50's and early 60's. I have seen them run at Portland International and it was better than I expected.
I like watching them on road courses because they RACE. They don't just play follow the leader until they can make a pass due to a screw up by the other driver or attrition.

 

I watched the NASCAR race and I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. It is pretty obvious that the cars are ill-equipped for the job of road racing, but it was still an entertaining show. If i am not mistaken there were still more than 30 cars running at the checkered flag. F1 could use that pecentage of finishers.

I will forever be an F1 and Sportscar racing fan. Turning in big circles for 500 miles holds no appeal for me. I am not saying it is bad racing....just not my cup of tea. I am a big fan of technology and NASCAR is about as far away from technology as covered wagons. It seems to me that the personalities in NASCAR are almost like wrestling. There seems to be good guys and bad guys and the fans are rabid about who they like and who they hate. Seems silly to me, but different strokes for different folks.

After it is all said and done, I wish there were more road races in NASCAR. I will watch those if there is not an F1 or Sportscar race on at the same time.....or Moto GP. Man...I am begining to love to watch those Moto GP guys go at it. How cool is a motorcycle drifting at 170 mph then lifting the front tire exiting the corner?

Those guys are nuts.

 

It's spelled nA$$crap....get it right!!

 

Barton tells it as it is, thats all I have to say.

 

Used to watch Nascar, now bored with it. I live near Sears Point, and saw the race there a couple of years ago - the cars are fast, and there was a distinct degradation in driving smoothness as you went from the leaders to the back of the pack. From today's paper:

http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stories/0,1413,86~10678~2241447,00.html

"Bay Area needs an oval track ", my favorite part:

"Many people, including a good number of drivers, contend that road racing isn't really stock-car racing at all but more or less auto racing's answer to match play in golf. You do it a couple of times a year as a racing-skills diversion, but it's as much a nuisance and even a hindrance to some of the top performers. Dale Earnhardt Jr., for instance, has raced five times at Sonoma but his 11th-place finish this year merely tied his best ever. "

I don't think Nascar WANTS more road races!

My two pennies.
Jon

 

This week's Autoextremist.com says a great deal about NASCAR, and none of it is good. If you haven't yet read it, do yourself the favor of checking it out.
http://autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant

 

It may be assured that if there was an oval in the Bay area of California, NASCAR would turn it's back on Sears Point so fast it would make their collective heads spin.

NASCAR is trying to wiggle out of their obligations to Watkins Glen and the
track is even owned by the ISC, (who are rumored to be putting out feelers to sell the historic circuit)! As Pocono is already in that fat northeast market,
why should NASCAR have to dirty itself running at Watkins Glen? Again, like
California, an oval in and around New York City would effectively put Watkins Glen out of the NASCAR business.

To those at NASCAR, running a road course is way too complicated. It requires more infrastructure and people to man the turns, etc. As evidenced at Daytona when there the entire circuit is utlizied, the DIS security forces are dispatched to make life as miserable as possible for fans and media alike.

However, just as pointed out, it is all about marketing and here we have Toyota about to spend $1B (thats "B" for billion) to enter the NASCAR fray even though they already have a presence in F-1, IRL and have a great sports car racing history.

And, just when it cant get any wackier, none other than Porsche is circling
the NASCAR drain as well. Crazy? No small irony that Porsche has a v8 platform and would not be surprising to see it appear in a front engined coupe
in the not too distant future. Let it also not be forgotten that the Porsche "Rennsport Reunion II" was at the Daytona International Speedway and "Rennsport III" is set to be run at Fontana (another ISC holding).

BHW

 

Barton,

I agree that Grand Am has some problems but so does ALMS.

In regards to the technology in GA you off quite a bit. There is no GT car that costs $40,000. The cheapest cars run in SGS and consist of Porsche GT3 Cup cars which run on average $125,000 along with a few Corvette's that cost about $80,000 and an odd 360 Challenge which costs $180,000 new.

They did fill the fields last year with GSII class Grand Am Cup cars, some of which might fit into that price range you listed but that is no longer true.

The DP cars may not be up to snuff when compared to LMP cars in ALMS but they are hardly 25 year old technology. Most of the engine designs are taken from the street motors which have very up to date technology. The BMW M5 motor is hardly 25 year old technology.

As for their relative speed vs. GT cars that was only in the first year that they ran lap times that were pretty close. This past year the gap was much wider. And as for excitement, well granted last year there was little to get excited about with only about 4 or 5 DP racing, but this year has seen some very close battles in DP.

I have been going to Daytona for about 10 years to watch the 24 hour races and the loss of fan base started well before Grand Am took over with the DP's. Daytona hasn't had a decent fan base since IMSA folded and the GTP cars left. This has nothing to do with Grand Am.

In regards to the this years race (which I attended and was a guest of one of the SGS teams in the pits) you are correct that there were rumors of why the race was stopped including preserving a DP win. I pretty much assumed the same, but after talking with Wayne Taylor and Butch Leitzinger, both said that the rain at about 7 am was just too substiantial to race in (it was creating huge aquaplaning on the banked sections). Both said it was correct to stop the race.

I am a fan of both ALMS and Grand Am for different reasons and both series have advantages over each and detractions.

ALMS is more of a "world class" category racing. Whether it be the LMP categories, GTS or GT class the cars tend to be better financed and in most cases the drivers are true "professionals" who earn their living from racing. There are still 'pay-to-ride" drivers in the lower classes but I'd say (and feel free to correct me) about 1/4 of the ALMS grid is non-professionals while more than half of the GA grid is amatuer.

However, if we discount LMP and DP, the cars in GTS and GT are the same cars just developed somewhat differently and driven by differnet drivers. At the top rungs of each class however sits world class talent and many of them drive in both series.

My beef with ALMS is simple, the LMP class is a total joke and has been for nearly 5 years. The VW group (Audi/Bentley) has used ALMS and LeMans as a marketing excercise through no fault of their own, but at the end of the day they haven't beaten anyone.

Audi won the first three LeMans races by beating up on "has been" amateur teams that have one tenth the budget. Teams like Courage, Pascarollo, Panoz, the failed Chrysler and Caddy programs.

While it may not be Audi's fault, ALMS hasn't done enough to encourage factory teams to come back. Where is Mercedes, Nissan, Mazda, Porsche, Jaguar, Toyota.

Audi hasn't beaten anyone worth mentioning. The whole Bentley "farce" was nothing but a marketing ploy. I was fully expecting them to rebadge the car as a VW and then go on marketing VW's first win at LeMans.

Like I said it's not really Audi's fault, but in the end ALMS LMP class has been boring as hell watching the Audis run rings around the inferior Panoz.

Same can be said of the GTS category which until last year was again a marketing class. The Vipers utterly dominated the class with no competition, until Corvette showed up. As soon as Corvette won the Vipers left ALMS. Except for some brief moments of glory last season form the 550's, the Corvette's have had no competition the past three and half years.

And lastly in GT class we have Massen and Luhr facing one other well funded GT3Rs and that's it. No competition at all in this class from the other "underfunded" GT3RS's or occasional 360's.

In closing I think it's a shame that the days of IMSA are gone. Group C was the pinnacle of sports car racing and what we have been left with is similar to the divide between CART and IRL. Neither is "the" series to end all and each has it's own detractions.

I like Grand Am because it's close racing and it's racing for the little guy. At least in the GT and SGS classes "non-professionals" can compete and race. Even the DP class which is hardly "budget" racing affords some people the opportunity to race.

ALMS on the other hand is the F1 equivalent of sports car racing, but unlike the IMSA days, there is little or no competition and the classes are dominated by teams that have huge budgets beating up on teams that have no budgets.

Both have their detractions but I think most real race fans watch both. Certainly the drivers don't seem to care. My good friends Craig Stanton and David Murray race their Porsche's in both series and have good things to say about both Grand Am and ALMS.

Regards,

Jon

 

Yes I would !

I find the "drifting" and a$$ end sliding entertaining.

I have been watching F/1 since the days when the F/1 cars did that !