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Y Draig Goch (Welsh dragon) Ferrari - Dudley Folland 166SC 010I

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by mcwidow70, Aug 31, 2009.

  1. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

    May 8, 2009
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    #1 mcwidow70, Aug 31, 2009
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    The 166sc is, in my opinion the car the Ferrari success is based on:
    the Folland's car was the ex scuderia Inter 010I (re-built on 01C body) raced by Troubetskoy and oher pilots on 1948. It was the first Ferrari to race in UK, painted in British Racing Green with two red dragon on the nose!!!

    I have the following stat for Folland:

    LEVANT CUP Goodwood 18/04/49 Folland #21 1st
    Jersey road race Jersey 28/04/49 G. Watson #?? DNA
    Pau Gp Pau 18/05/49 Folland #?? DNF or DNQ
    3rd MANX CUP Douglas 25/05/49 Folland #19 DNF
    IV Circuti de Remparts Angouleme 12/06/49 Folland #6 5th
    I Circuit du Lac Aix-les-Bains 21/06/49 Folland #30 DNF
    III Coupe de Petites Cylindrees Reims 17/07/49 Folland #12 4th
    Blanford Trophy Blandford 27/08/49 Folland #4 DNF
    Wakefield Trohy Curragh 01/09/49 Folland #?? 2nd
    II Madgwick Cup Goodwood 17/09/49 Folland #?? 6th
    Weston-super-mare speed trial Weston ??/10/49 John Wyer #?? 2nd

    John Starkey mentioned on his article the attendance to other minor event in 1949 fall (a part form Weston-super-mare speed trial). Can anyone confirm?


    http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/articles/articles_05.html

    from J. Starkey'article

    "....John Wyer travelled to Modena to test 010I and with Folland arranged for the car’s purchase and shipping to England. This was the car that Nuvolari drove in the 1948 Mille Miglia. It had then been delivered to Gruppo Inter in March 1948 for Prince Igor Troubetzkoy. He and other drivers raced it and, at the end of the season, Troubetzloy retired and sold the car via Zehender to Folland.
    Wyer was contacted in the early spring by a friend of his, Welshman Dudley Folland, who had heard that a very rare and fast racing Ferrari was for sale. At this time, no Ferrari of any sort had been seen in a Britain which was still only just recovering from World War 2. Nonetheless, rumours, fuelled by the press, had reached Britain of this formidable new make of car, which had already spread an impression of tremendous speed and exclusivity. Wyer and Folland had competed at Spa and Montlhery in an Aston Martin and had been very impressed with the Ferrari 166 Spyder Corsa, which Luigi Chinetti had used to win both races.
    After establishing contact with the Ferrari factory, John Wyer travelled to Modena to test 010C. In his book, “The Certain Sound”, Wyer later recounted how: “The memory of testing that little car and taking it up to 6,500 rpm on the straight but narrow road from the Ferrari factory at Maranello back towards Modena, with the population waving us on and the odd stray dog and hen getting in the way on a bright but very cold morning in January, will always remain with me.
    Folland and Wyer arranged for the car’s purchase and shipping to England. This was made difficult because of the draconian taxes being levied by Britain’s government at this time in an attempt to stop imports of luxury goods. In order to circumvent this problem, the sum of four thousand British pounds was handed over to a representative of Ferrari in a shoebox in a London hotel! To try to get past import restrictions, a Ferrari mechanic, Boschi, delivered the 166, the very first Ferrari imported into England, to Monaco Motor Engineering in March, the company Wyer worked at, together with his partner, the racing driver George Abecassis.
    Monaco Motor Engineering covered the Italian Racing Red of 010I beneath a coat of British Racing Green and painted a small dragon, the emblem of Wales, on each side of the nose. The 166 was then trucked to the Goodwood circuit near Chichester where Folland drove it to a maiden British win in the Lavant Cup on April 18th. The car was entered in a race on Jersey in the Channel Islands ten days later, to be driven by Gordon Watson but for some reason, 010I did not take the start. Wyer later commented that they had “rather stupidly”, used 010I for Formula two races and kept their Aston Martin for sportscar races. That was a mistake as: “Ferrari had already brought out the single seater Formula 2 car and the type 166 was outclassed.
    Dudley Folland was back in the driving seat on May 18th in France where 010I took part in the Grand Prix of Pau and, just eight days later, Folland retired from a race in the Isle of Man entitled the “British Empire Trophy”, a race for Formula Two cars. Sadly, Monaco Motors had used the wrong material for a flange gasket. On June 12th, Folland travelled to Angouleme in France for the Grand Prix which was held then, as now, on a street circuit. It was a three heat race and Folland won the first heat, was third in the second but had problems in the third which placed him fifth overall. He improved on this result five weeks later, again in France where he took part in the “Grand Prix de Petite Cylindrees”, at Rheims, an event for Formula Two cars in which he took fourth place. It was back to England for Folland’s next race, which was held on an airfield circuit at Blandford Forum in Dorset on August 27th. Sadly, the little 166 developed a problem with a blown head gasket and Folland was forced to retire. Folland raced 010I just twice more whilst it was in his ownership. He was second in the Wakefield Trophy at Curragh on September 10th in Ireland and appeared again at Goodwood where he had won the Lavant Cup in April. He competed in the Woodcote Cup but the result, at this time, is unknown. In October, Folland lent 010I to John Wyer to drive in the Weston Super-Mare Speed Trial and Wyer set the second fastest time of the day there. John Wyer probably also raced 010I in several more sprints and hillclimbs.
    That doyen of motor racing writers, Denis Jenkinson, was the “Continental correspondent” of the respected British magazine, the “Motor Sport”. He inspected 010I during the winter of 1949/50 and measured the wheelbase as 2420 mm and the front and rear track as 1255 and 1200 mm respectively. His Majesty’s Customs and Excise had meanwhile been exerting pressure on Dudley Folland to pay import duty on the Ferrari. To escape this tax and clear the carnet, John Wyer sent the car to Cataneo’s Garage in Paris with instructions that it should be returned to the factory at Modena and sold on his and Folland’s behalf....."



    Wyer later recounted, in his book, “The Certain Sound”, : “The memory of testing that little car and taking it up to 6,500 rpm on the straight but narrow road from the Ferrari factory at Maranello back towards Modena, with the population waving us on and the odd stray dog and hen getting in the way on a bright but very cold morning in January, will always remain with me.”
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  2. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior
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    #2 Michael Muller, Aug 31, 2009
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    No. It was as red as a Ferrari could be!
    Brought to the UK somehwat illegal on basis "carnet" (temporary import), and therefore later had to be brought back to Italy in order to release the carnet deposit.
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  3. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

    May 8, 2009
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    Are you sure about the colour?
    I found on several articles stating that the car was green painted by John Wyer before to deliver it to Folland.
    I have several B&W pics where the red dragons stand out clearly on the nose sides, so it means the two coulour (body and dragon) are quite different. Do you know if a colour pic exist?

    Can you confirm my stat and do you know the missing race numbers?
     
  4. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

    May 8, 2009
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    Sorry I din't see the posted pic!!!
    In this case the dragon were painted with a different red or maybe with differnt colour
     
  5. billnoon

    billnoon Formula 3
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    010I was not rebuilt on the body but on the chassis of 01C.

    01C/010I has had many bodies over the years.

    Cheers,

    Bill
     
  6. Sire Bruno de Losckley

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    at Madgwick Cup, Goodwood, Chichester (GB) # 71
     
  7. Aardy

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    The body colour was dark red and the dragons common red...
     
  8. Boudewijn

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    The Pau Grand Prix was held on Monday (!), April 18 1949 and there is no entry for Folland (from "Le Grand Prix de Pau 1899-1960" by Pierre Darmendrail).
     
  9. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

    May 8, 2009
    67
    Thank you for the information.
    I think that there is a lot of confusion/inaccuracies over this early Ferrari racing period: I got the information of the green colour from several sources and I sure to have seen a 1/43 green model some years ago; also the Pau attendance is reported on Starkey's article (and in a couple of forum), even with the engine failure details.

    As far as the the body is concerned, I have a doubt about the rear part:
    I think that the body had not changed from scuderia Inter to Monaco Motor Engineering - Folland's management (the Folland cars seems the same of Troubetskoy's one raced at MONACO GP 1948 #36).

    Besides I am quite sure that a part from the wings, the lights and the second seat cover, the body is the same of the 012I's one (Coupe des Petites Cylindrées at Reims 1948 Righetti, Montlhery 12 Hours 1948 Chinetti and then 4 racing years in the US - owner Cunningham -, first Ferrari to race and win in US).

    Another example is the forward and rear body of Sterzi Pescara 1948 #12 seems the same.

    What can you tell me about:
    Nuvolari BARI 1948 #48
    Nuvolari Mantova 1948 #2
    Sommer Skarpnacksfaltet ,Stockholm 1948 #2
    The forward and side grilles seem the same but I am not sure about the rear body: I know that TRON had in catalogue several 1/43 166sc and I remember to have seen at least 3 different rear body (different length and profile.
     
  10. Michael Muller

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    #10 Michael Muller, Sep 1, 2009
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    Wait until Doug Nye pops up, he not only knows this car quite well, he even had driven it personally back in the 90's. He wrote a very long article about 010I in "Historic Race & Rally" July-August 1993 edition, including interview with Prince Igor Troubetskoy, and a written report of John Wyer himself dating from 1980. The whole thing is a PDF file of 5.5 MB, so I cannot post it here.

    Wyer himself only said the car was "repainted" just in time before the Goodwood Easter Meeting on 18 April 1949, but the photo above has been taken just there. No single word about "green", "BRG", or something like that. So "repainted" means either a new red coat, or indeed only the dragon. As historian for me it is absolutely unacceptable that people are trying to rewrite history simply by adding something to original source text for which there is absolutely no prove!
    Wyer also confirms that the car was brought to the UK by carnet procedure, meaning temporary import by a non-UK-resident. In this case this was Ferrari mechanic Boschi, who accompanied Folland and the car in the truck who brought it to England. So during its stay in the UK #010I was officially owned by Boschi, thus painting it green was out of question, especially because HM Customs for sure had at least one eye on it, may be even 2. Also here the word "imported" is wrong, it was only a "temporary import", nothing more.

    John Starkey's article contains a lot of mistakes, I had some correspondence with him now nearly 10 years ago about that. The Pau story comes from Wyer, but is nonsens of course. It was not F2 but F1, and on the same Easter Monday as Goodwood. Wyer only wrote "He [Folland] then took it to the continent for Formula2 races at Pau, Angouleme (5th) and Reims". Nothing about Grand Prix" and nothing about "18th May". I'm sure Wyer means Aix-les-Bains (Circuit du Lac) on 21.6.1949, where Folland retired in heat 1 with transmission problems.

    By the way, to take model cars as source for layout and color of historic cars is something which I never will be able to understand....
    And about sources in general - there are primary, secondary, and tertiary ones. And mistakes are not getting true if they are repeated over and over again.

    No, the Folland car was NOT the same as Troubetskoy's Monaco car. This was #006I, the other Scuderia Inter car. Folland/Wyer had #010I, Nuvolari's Mille Miglia car, the one with the horseshoe-shaped grille. Doug made the same mistake (sorry chap :)) 16 years ago already. The Folland car had an open co-driver cockpit and drillings for the headlights, something which 006I never had, as it was only used for formula racing.
    But where's the horseshoe grille? No idea, it had been removed and substituted by a new nose, which is SIMILAR to that of 006I, but not IDENTICAL. See both photos below, the grille of Folland's 010I is a crude piece of metal which has nothing to do with craftmanship.

    It is always said that 006I was Sterzi's car, and 010I that of Troubetskoy. That's wrong, both cars had been owned by Scuderia Inter which was a legal entity, with Troubetskoy as President, and Goffredo Zehender as Secretary. Sterzi had only a minority share - if any, and he dropped out of the partnership as early as 9 May 1948 (after the Gran Premio di Apertura at Vercelli). So from that date on Troubetskoy had both cars at his free disposal, and as he only drove formula races he used 006I exclusively.
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  11. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior
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    Based on the photos I'm quite sure that Righetti at Reims drove a SWB car, most probably #008I. The Chinetti/Cunningham car was #016I, a LWB one.

    Yes, this was #012I, on loan from the factory after Sterzi left Scuderia Inter.

    100 points for the correct answer! Who gives it a try? :)

    Good question. Until recently I was convinced that this was #008I SWB, but most probably I have to rethink.

    #006I, the Scuderia Inter car, which Team Manager Zehender frequently lent to Ferrari (where the Inter cars had their home base) without knowledge of his principal, and very likely by filling his own pockets.
     
  12. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

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    #12 mcwidow70, Sep 2, 2009
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    Michael, with my assertion I didn't dispute the information you posted, since I know that they are usually based on facts, but rather the mentioned article's ones .
    As far as the grille is concerned I have the same pics so I know the difference on workmanship an on other little details. I referred to macro differences as for example the grille shape.
    With respect to the rear body have all the the cars I mentioned the same shape ?
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  13. Michael Muller

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    Yes, the rear body is basically the same for all 166 Inter SC.
    Major differentials are the radiator grille where 3 types can be noted. The original shape as used for 002C and 004C, the horseshoe shape of 010I (probably this was only mounted after the Sicily accident in April 1948), and the later standard grille from 006I to 016I. There are some minor differences like crank holes/pins, bended bars, air scoops, and headlight drillings, which help for identification. And of course the wheelbase, as 008I and 014I had been SWB cars. Some cars change slightly during the 1948 season, probably caused by repairs.
     
  14. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

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    #14 mcwidow70, Sep 2, 2009
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    Probably I am a rookie of this matter. Since the LWB/SWB classification is not offical but I think it a discussion one, please can you indicate me a thread (if it exists) where I can find the 166sc lwb/swb classification sn by sn? Which was the exact dimension difference?

    here below the link to a ferrari engineer history pamphlet with same nice 166sc pics

    http://www.amicidelcorni.it/layout/upload/Libro_Scapinelli.pdf
     
  15. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior
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    Sorry for misunderstanding, my verbal attack was not against you, but adressed to the writers of such articles who add personal presumptions as facts, or simply copy incorrect details from others. So a red car turns into green, which is getting greener and greener everytime the original mistake is quoted.
     
  16. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

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    I have a 80's 1/43 model catalogue (high quality one) and you cannot imagine how many models were turned from red to green: probably a green single seater ferrari was equal to selling increase.
     
  17. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

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    I will try to get the magazine issue for my library; meanwhile can you mail me the pdf
    (gdallavedova@libero.it)
     
  18. Michael Muller

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    Wow, great find!!
    Photos I never have seen before...

    #1097 is of course Nuvolari at the 1949 MM with #010I.

    The 2nd photo is a real gem, it has been taken before the 1949 Giro di Sicilia and shows the Besana car #004C. 2nd from right is Bruno Sterzi, and next to him Soave Besana. Soave finally didn't use his own car but acted as co-driver with Sterzi in #010I. At least this is reported, as long as I haven't seen photos of the Sterzi/Besana car in action I cannot exclude that it was the other way round, meaning Sterzi was co-driver to Besana.

    #297 is #004C again, 297 was Soave's permanant race number in April/May 1948 (number of licence), although the guy at the wheel for me looks like his brother Gabriele. In June they dropped this numbering system and returned to standard whith numbers distributed by race organizers individually. So there are not many options for this photo, so my bet is Bari, 30.5.1948.

    #630 is the other Besana car (watch the logo), #002C, Mille Miglia 1949. At the wheel Franco Cortese, beside him Gabriele Besana.
     
  19. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

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    QUOTE]

    Probably I am a rookie of this matter. Since the LWB/SWB classification is not offical but I think it a discussion one, please can you indicate me a thread (if it exists) where I can find the 166sc lwb/swb classification sn by sn? Which was the exact dimension difference?

    [/QUOTE]

    SWB wheelbase 2420 mm
    LWB wheelbase 2500 mm

    correct?
     
  20. Michael Muller

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    #20 Michael Muller, Sep 2, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
    No, 2420 mm was the LWB version. The SWB - based on measurement of #014I - had abt. 2250 mm.
    SWB's had been #008I, #014I, and - if really existed - #018I.
    The SWB had a different frame and rear suspension, where the frame was underslung, same as the 166 MM. It was designed by Colombo after his return to Maranello in January 1948.
     
  21. Sire Bruno de Losckley

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    Nuvolari/Scapinelli: n° 1049 at Mille Miglia 1948
     
  22. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

    May 8, 2009
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    many thanks
     
  23. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

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    Scapinelli was a engineer of Ferrari private client supporting team. See pdf attached on one of previous posts
     
  24. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior
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    1948 of course, also for the GdS photo...! [shame]
     
  25. mcwidow70

    mcwidow70 Karting

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    #25 mcwidow70, Sep 2, 2009
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