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Your Plans for Ethanol in your Vintage Ferrari.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by UroTrash, Apr 26, 2006.

  1. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 20, 2004
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    Now that ALL pump gas will contain ethanol in the near future, what do you think will be the effect on the fuel seals and components of vintage cars?

    I believe modern cars are made to resist the harmful effects of alcohol, but I always heard NEVER to put "gasohol" in older cars.

    Up until now, I have tried to avoid any station that references alcohol content even though in modern cars it should not be an issue. If I had a vintage car I would be very concerned.

    Forgive me if this has been posted before, I could not find it in reference to older cars.
     
  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Post of the year. :)
     
  3. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli F1 Rookie
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    Good post and I miised the other one.

    Does anyone know the approximate ratio of gasoline to methanol??

    Bob Z.
     
  4. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Mar 14, 2005
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    Gasohol always had 10% ethanol (Most common in the Midwest). But with the elimination of MTBE, gasolines will now have ethanol added up to 6% where mandated by RFG and less in other areas. This map will change as MTBE is phased out and ethanol is phased in. http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf


    http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/fuel_economy/
    An ethanol concentration of 6.0 percent by volume is needed to achieve the 2.1 percent by mass average oxygen content required by federal RFG.* Adding this amount of ethanol to conventional gasoline lowers the volumetric energy content by 2.0 percent.** In general, the percent decrease in volumetric energy content of an oxygenated gasoline is about equal to its oxygen content in units of percent by mass.
     
  5. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
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    Isn't the complete elimination of tetraethyl lead more of a change than the addition of ethanol?

    Ethanol might affect hoses and other rubber parts; the elimination of lead affects the expensive bits inside the engine.

    I've always added some tetraethyl and a dose of Marvel Mystery Oil to each tank of fuel.

    I'd like to hear the opinion of a chemical engineer, or someone else who knows.
     
  6. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    We've had 10% ethanol in the gasoline in Oregon in the Summer for 5-10 years now, I've been running it in my 365GT 2+2 and 512BB with no problems.

    Is this going to be the same hysteria that happened when leaded gas was phased out? I remember hearing what a big deal that was going to be, and yet I haven't noticed any ill effects in my 365 since then.

    Uro, this sounds like a great reason why you shouldn't get a vintage car. Wait a few years, until we're sure there are no problems!
     
  7. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    At a Ferrari tech session on Saturday, the topic came up.

    I listened for about ten minutes and left reasonably confident that no one in official Ferrari circles knows for sure what effect additional ethanol in fuel will have on the older cars, and left somewhat sure that any modern car with an onboard computer will be fine.

    There was some concern about the effect of ethanol, long term, on fiberglass, but I can't see how that will have any effect on cars. It's more of a concern for gas stations, that very carefully replaced their steel tanks with FG some years ago.

    There is some indication that ethanol dissolves the old crud in your tank and fuel system, so until the tank cleans out, frequent fuel filter changes may be necessary, and any rubberized fuel lines, if they made them, will rot more quickly. (Neoprene will not.)

    Here's what ARCO gas has to say:

    For antique cars, owners should consult with the manufacturers for compatibility of ethanol blends with antique engine parts. If ethanol blends are used, regular inspection of the fuel-delivery system by trained mechanics should be undertaken.

    http://www.arcogas.com/gas/faqs.php#20


    dm
     
  8. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    You can pretty much count on the fuel pump going south.
     
  9. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

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    It's just not ethinol. All the additives they have added to gas for years destoys natural rubber products. Have you ever had carb jets clogged every other day by tiny bits of rubber? Lots of fun.
     
  10. 400iGuy

    400iGuy Formula Junior
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    What an assinine recommendation!
     
  11. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    I was mistaken-- the E10 in Oregon has been in the winter, not the summer. But still, they've been doing it in the Portland area since 1992-- why haven't my engines had trouble?

     
  12. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    I really dont think this is fair. Many cars DID suffer greatly after lead was taken out, because many many engines did not have hardened valve seats. Your Ferrari always did, so it was and never would be a great problem unless you worked it exceedingly hard. But it was and still is a problem for aircraft, which is why aviation fuel still has lead added.

    Alcohol is another variable and the amounts added seem to be in question. I had asked around about e85, and was told some later model cars not designed to run on it could have severe damage done to fuel lines and other various bits so its not a joke. Having all your fuel lines melt on a V-12 could be a great issue.
     
  13. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli F1 Rookie
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    Hi, Paul - just an update regarding aircraft use of unleaded fuel.
    There is an STC (Supplemental type certificate) which is FAA approved and permits unleaded auto fuel in certain aircraft engines.
    My engine (Lycoming O-320, 150 HP) was designed for 80 octane leaded fuel.
    I installed the STC over 10 years ago and have been running mostly unleaded ever since. There is no degradation in performance and the compression remains at acceptable limits at the annual inspections.

    But, as this thread really pertains to cars, I will add that using unleaded regular in my 1967 ALFA and Ferrari has not caused any problems - I've been doing so since the early 90s.

    I cannot comment on alcohol since I've only used the occasional "drygas" additives on occasion.

    Bob Z.
     
  14. DMC

    DMC Formula 3

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  15. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    NY gas has had it for years no problem for any of my cars.
     
  16. Bryan

    Bryan Formula 3

    Only Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV) should get E85.
     
  17. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Just run AVgas - no alcahol and a better smelling exhaust!

    Art S.
     
  18. sam231

    sam231 Formula Junior
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    Pretty soon we will all be reduced to running on used fryer oil...and the sound you hear will be accompanied by the smell of french fries!
     
  19. CRDNLPLT

    CRDNLPLT Rookie

    Oct 11, 2005
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    The stuff lasts for ever as well.
     
  20. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli F1 Rookie
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    AvGas is now 100 octane low lead. Even called that, I've been told that the lead content is quite high.

    Although the octane can't hurt, there is absolutley no need for such a high rating in the older Ferrari V-12 road cars. As I recall, my 330 is 8:1 or thereabouts.

    One thing that could be done is to blend a bit - say, 20% Av and the rest unleaded regular.

    Comments????????????????

    Bob Z.
     
  21. ArtS

    ArtS F1 Veteran
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    Nov 11, 2003
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    Bob,

    My response was to the ethanol problem, not whether it needs it. I personally like to run 1/2 super, 1/2 100LL. I know it's overkill, but the car likes it.

    Regards,

    Art S.
     
  22. bill365

    bill365 F1 Rookie

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    Actually, I was considering converting some transports to Methanol. Check the bulk pricing, as far as I have found, I believe the math looks attractive. I think the conversion is fairly easy, richening the jets on the carbed vehicles. You won't get quite as good of mpg, but the power would be real good, less deposits in your engine, junk in your oil and HC's out the pipe.

    Any thoughts???
     
  23. acm57

    acm57 Karting

    Dec 26, 2005
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    Tony Martin
    My experiance with gasohol in the 80's was brittle and cracked rubber parts of the fuel lines and fuel pump. This was in a 79 corvette, but rubber is rubber. I'll stay away from if possible.
     
  24. acm57

    acm57 Karting

    Dec 26, 2005
    53
    Chapin,SC
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    Tony Martin
    My experiance with gasohol in the 80's was brittle and cracked rubber parts of the fuel lines and fuel pump. This was in a 79 corvette, but rubber is rubber. I'll stay away from it if possible.
     

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