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Zandvoort corner banking to be twice as steep as Indianapolis

Discussion in 'F1' started by mcimino, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    I never liked the tyre rules introduced over the year, and the tyre contract situation.
    My ideal scenario would be complete freedom in tyre choice, including several manufacturers.
    But then, I would be in favour of a lot more technical freedom in F1.
     
  2. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    I don't know if it's a repost.

    This short Zandvoort Simulation Lap for F1 configuration 2020 doesn' show the bankings to be very dramatic.

     
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  3. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I assumed I didn’t need the sarcasm emoji.....:rolleyes::D
     
  4. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    See posts 33, 34, 38, 41 etc. :)
     
  5. amerikalei

    amerikalei Karting

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    Has anyone seen an overlay of the original track with the new one? I'm curious to see what's entirely new and what remains of the original (albeit improved for safety).
     
  6. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
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    I've walked on the TMS 24 degrees, it is steep when you are on it!
     
  7. Flavio_C

    Flavio_C Formula Junior

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    #59 Flavio_C, Dec 3, 2019
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    Oh boy, I love these old tracks :). I lived near Monza for a while and I would ride my bike on the old track.

     
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  8. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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  9. william

    william F1 World Champ

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  10. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 Veteran
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  11. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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  12. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Or it could be an horizontal surface with a strip of grass and a gravel bed to catch the infortunates.
    I never understood why you need systemativally to put concrete walls around ovals.
     
  13. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Certainly you jest.....I hope. :p

    Your "horizontal surface with a strip of grass and a gravel bed" (space and cost restrictions not withstanding) would be useless as the cars, without a wall, would be "launched" right over them and into the parking lot......that's why. ;)

    :)
     
  14. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    It all depends of the distance you put between the track and the parking lot, or public enclosure.
    They removed obstacles on many road circuits to have large run-off areas at dangerous corners, didn't they? Why can't ovals have the same?
    Why does an "off" on an oval has to mean a crash against hard surface and be terminal?
    Maybe the oval tracks need a redesign? Just an idea ...
     
  15. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Maybe you don't know the U.S. racing scene and I'm not an oval fan but I don't know of a major new one in I can't even remember how many years. Anywho, the one's I know don't have the space to do what you suggest (and it would have to be a reeeaaallll wide runoff over the top of even the 18 degree banking as you'll see when in use). There are hundreds of wall contacts each year and I don't know of your "crash against hard surface and be terminal" (yes there have been but likewise Bianchi, no?). Have you not heard of the SAFER barrier?
    Observe: https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › SAFER_barrier
     
  16. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Thanks. I was wondering if they would retain the corner’s name. That picture gives a better perspective of the radius, I think.
     
  17. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    How could you have a runoff area at the top of a banking? I don’t see how the geometry could work.
     
  18. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    What I say, is that the design of oval tracks hasn't followed the cars development, and maybe needs a rethink.
    The first ovals, like the board tracks were created for cars lapping at 100mph, and now the cars can easily do 240mph.
    Even the tracks built in the last 20/30 years have kept to the same design, with public enclosures right to the track, all around.
    Yes, I know about the SAFER barrriers, but in these conditions, they are like plaster on a wooden leg, aren't they?
    They only slightly dissipate the impact, but the kinetic energy of a car at speed meeting an immovable object is enormous.
    I mean "terminal" in the sense that the car is wrecked, its suspension torn, the chassis damaged and the bodywork in pieces littering the track.
    It doesn't need to be like that, and with a bit of thinking, even oval tracks should be able to offer run-off areas where cars in trouble can end up without damage.
    At present, a car that hits the wall is thrown back on the track very often in the middle of the pack coming at full speed, adding to the carnage.
     
  19. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    Very simple. You build an horizonral flat surface starting from the top edge of the banking 50 or 60 meters wide, covered with gravel to slow down the cars that leave the track . The kinetic energy of a car leaving the track would be dissipated by the friction in the gravel bed. The stranded car would be immediatly retrieved and hoisted out of the run-off area by a fixed on-site crane and recovery crew.
    There would be far less (if any) secondary crashes where cars hit someone that was bounced off the wall, and recovery interventions would be quicker since off track, and no spillage on the circuit.
     
  20. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The angle between the top of the banking and the horizontal surface would still have a launching effect. If it were feasible I’m pretty sure somebody would have tried it.
     
  21. william

    william F1 World Champ

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    The "launching effect" wouldn't last very long, or the car go very far, IMO.
    Don't forget that cars run parallel to the top of the banking, not a 90° towards the top.
    In most cases, a car in perdiction would not go from the bottom to the banking, but go wide and simply start putting the outside wheels of it and in the gravel.
    The gravel bed would act as a safety net and immobilise the car by friction.
    As to why people haven't tried it? Well, it would cost money to redesign existing tracks, and new ones keep to traditions to be accepted.
    It's always the same things: "This isn't done here" mentality.
    It would be like asking Monaco to adopt the safety rules imposed on Tilke circuits: impossible !
     
  22. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    You post as though you have a handle on the dynamics. Apparently you do not.

    "In most cases, a car in perdiction would not go from the bottom to the banking, but go wide and simply start putting the outside wheels of it and in the gravel."
    Being over the top of the banking, away the vehicle would go, being light as over any rise in a circuit, only more so, with the 18 degrees of difference to the sharp change to horizontal..
    If one was going the direction you were suggesting would kill them, the runoff would have to be humongous, as the cars would have to come back down from the air (which undoubtedly would cause a nasty roll or somersault....not desired).
    Like you say, most accidents are close to parallel which is why a wall is fine...it's just a glancing blow; which is also why "my" hundreds per year (here in NASCAR, IndyCar and others at 200 mph) usually only result in a visit to the infield "care" center for a quick examination rather than hospital.
    I'm starting to wonder what "shade" your lenses are regarding physics. :p

    "As to why people haven't tried it? Well, it would cost money to redesign existing tracks, and new ones keep to traditions to be accepted."
    Do you only read what you wish? Or glean what you wish? I stated the cost and space would be restrictive for your required runoff. You would also need binoculars from any seat in the "house" to see the cars.
    Maybe you're not aware, but even straights of race tracks (oval or road course....yes, even F1) have walls of all sorts, to keep the cars contained, away from spectators; not just runoff. And, in those cases, the ricochet from a wall is far safer then being "grabbed" to a stop by, let's say, a tire wall. ;)
     

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