| Author | Message | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1394 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'll leave it at that, mainly due to the fact that I do not have the time to look it up on my end, and I do not want to start a holy war with an FChat member  | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 650 Registered: 1-2003 |
I did a search here: http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible I can't come up with anything clearly stating "Obey the laws of the land you live in". I did find where it says "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death." That sounds like a decent thing to be part of. It sure does show a high level of tolerance for other people. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1391 Registered: 1-2003 |
Randall, it's in Soloman | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 649 Registered: 1-2003 |
Where in the bible does it say that? I know in the Book of Mormon it says that, but not sure where in the old or new testament. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Intermediate Member Username: Peters Post Number: 1390 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bottom line: Obey the laws of the land you live in. That is clearly in the bible. If you don't like the laws, move or vote. If you break the law, you pay the price. Sorry to be so black and white, but thats my two cents. | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 213 Registered: 3-2003 |
Interesting debate here - it always gets heated when religion is involved. I dont see Hugh and Rich bashing Christianity. What I read is that some non-Christians take offense to the Christian belief that everyone else can not go to heaven and by default are going to hell (James and Dan - care to respond). Also, some agnostics do not like religion poured down their throats be it on money, in the form of laws etc. I totally agree. Freedom is a wonderful thing - thats why most of us are in the US and other freeer countries. A choice to do what one wants to do - have an abortion/ not have an abortion etc. Why should religion have anything to do with those laws. If you dont want to have one - dont. Dont tell others they cant. While I do believe in a higher power and am not agnostic - religion has been a big problem the world over. Look at the middle east, look at ireland/england, and on and on. Religion should be a personal thing and one group should not impose their ways/wills on others. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5901 Registered: 8-2002 |
LOL, Hugh... Forget that crap, we'll go down to The Chateau and crash whatever they're doing - the parties there are awesome... | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1313 Registered: 1-2002 |
DES: that's it, I'm coming to NYC for a burger, some BBQ and a beer. Round up the posse. | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
Junior Member Username: Aventino Post Number: 76 Registered: 6-2003 |
Sorry to those with religious beliefs out there but I just don't think I need a religion to tell me what's right and wrong. That's my upbringing, in the values that my parents have placed upon them and upon me. But by the same token, if you need an external influence to get you through the day, enable you to realise goals or whatever, who am I to judge. It's the bit about spreading the word that annoys me most, like I'm in dire need of saving from something when I thought I was getting on in life ok. That and the huge contributions they happily take from people who, in my experience, can least afford it. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 121 Registered: 2-2003 |
Randelle Now I personally don't mind legalizing Prostitution. Theres one place were religion hasn't swayd me. LOL But I am unapologetic for anyways that it has (which I will keep to myself) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5895 Registered: 8-2002 |
Randall, odds of me being in Hawaii are slimmer than Ally McBeal standing sideways in a fun house mirror in a picture taken with a panaramic view at ninety degrees, but if you're ever in NY, let me know, i'll buy YOU a beer... | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 645 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dan, Your personal beliefs because of your faith will sway you to desire laws that will make others live by your beliefs. Why do you think prostitution, drugs and gay marriage are illegal? If these are legalized in a controlled manner, would it destroy the country? No, but it wouldn't be fitting with christian morals. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 120 Registered: 2-2003 |
Randelle, Des The statement was saying you will lose friends if you decide to attack there personal beliefs. Not that you will gain friends by not talking or agreeing with something. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 119 Registered: 2-2003 |
Randell I am a Christian I don't want to force anything on you. Don't put us into a group because you meet a few bad apples. | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 644 Registered: 1-2003 |
Extremists that infringe on other peoples rights or lives are equally looney and "bad people". I don't care if their Christians forcing their values on others and shooting doctors or Muslims blowing themselves up. And yes, I think most of the stuff in the bible is BS. The world's 6000 years old, it was created in 7 days and 4000 years ago the planet was wiped out by a great flood. Pass me an opium pipe and some LSD and you might get me to believe it. Christians want to FORCE their beliefs on others. If you don't believe it look at the gay marriage issue. The main reason to not allow it is because it is a sin in christian eyes. Oh, DES-- "Dan, those people who would befriend me only if i didn't publicly talk about religion are exactly the kinds of people i don't want to be my friends..." Same here, if you're ever in Hawaii get ahold of me and I'll buy ya a beer. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 118 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thank you Augustine lets go with that. | ||
| Augustine J. Staino (Azzuro328)
Junior Member Username: Azzuro328 Post Number: 210 Registered: 4-2003 |
So, how about those Islamic Fundamentalists? | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2003 |
BS that is in their book Come on give me a break. | ||
| Augustine J. Staino (Azzuro328)
Junior Member Username: Azzuro328 Post Number: 208 Registered: 4-2003 |
Randall, Amen to that! (once again, no pun intended) | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 643 Registered: 1-2003 |
"That's a major difference between Islam and Christianity. Jesus taught to forgive the sinner and hate the sin they committed." Last I knew there were many references in the bible that refer to stoning people to death. If Christians truely practiced the BS that is in their book, they would be no different than the extremist muslims. The world really would be a better place without organized religion. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5894 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ok, nevermind. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2003 |
"And, if I offend a christian, it's long overdue" Des I am going to make this easy for you: I am a Christian. And in being a Christian I fight for my religion like its a family member. You are trying to offend me. This is an attach on Christians Im a Christian. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5891 Registered: 8-2002 |
LOL, Dan, none of those support your statement...! Where exactly are we tearing down YOUR religion...? We're voicing our opinions about a religion that you just so happen to be a part of... No one's got your stones in a vice, this is about the religion, not you... LOL... | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 115 Registered: 2-2003 |
Rich, I truly don't judge you and would love to buy you a beer sometime. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 114 Registered: 2-2003 |
"Dan, no one is tearing down "YOUR" religion, where do you get that...? " Lets see Here I'm w/ rich. I've always loved (insert sarcsasm) how under christain beliefs the isalm fellow, or the buddhist , or the hindu , or whomever (be it a non-christian) is condemnded to hell, simply b/c they're not "christian" through and through; obliterating the possibility that they've been as pious, or more, than any equivelant human of the christian faith. It people can't understand how even holding that single idea as truth is outright bling ignorant faith, then there's no use aruing with a mute. here Frankly, we'd all be better of if the world just imploded. Everyone could just live happily ever after in their own afterlife (or realize that there isn't one), and none of this torture veiled in the name of religious sanctity would have a medium within which to continue. Either that, or the world should collectivly disavow religious practice. here More people will listen to what you have to say if you offer an opinion rather than just telling us to stop doing what we're doing - which, ironically, happens to be typical of christianity... here Dan, if you truly believed in the cra- er, "teachings" in the bible, you wouldn't be offended... My opinion is just that- my opinion. No reason for you to be offended if you're secure in your religion... Now, if you feel you've been forced into the belief like so many others, well, then, that's another story, entirely... and especially here And, if I offend a christian, it's long overdue Would you like some more examples? | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 563 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dan, if you are really a Christian, you absolutely must judge me. Or more accurately, not judge, but simply believe I am incorrect, by default. Your belief system requires you to believe you are on the only true path (and thus all others are flawed). And you can't believe for a second that we will all be up in heaven in 100 years. Your belief system does not allow for that possibility. But I'd shake your hand and buy you a beer anyday and probably approve of how you live your daily life. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5885 Registered: 8-2002 |
Augustine, LMAO...! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA H AH AYNBADSLKL VWEOIRHGPWMDCP;WOIJERG;...! | ||
| Augustine J. Staino (Azzuro328)
Junior Member Username: Azzuro328 Post Number: 204 Registered: 4-2003 |
AMEN! (no pun intended) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5882 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dunne, if you were referring to me, yes, i would take your hand if extended in a second... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 2006 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>did you get into Christianity because of some major influence in your life (parents, etc) (most likely) or did you systematically analyze all of the religions in the world, look at them all at face value, decide which ones had moral values, etc. you liked, and then believe in it?<< Dan, I tried this and all my research (2 years of theology in kolidge) points to the obvious. Italy is so far unsurpassed in their talent for making exotic cars. The rest of Europe have tried their hand on it, but only the impractical Italian can make a car so incredibly one dimensional and justify building a company around it. No wonder they have all been through financial turmoil! Cheers | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5881 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dan, no one is tearing down "YOUR" religion, where do you get that...? We're stating our opinions on religion, in general; christianity, specifically... No one mentioned YOUR name or YOUR beliefs, specifically... Also, if you want to go back to talking about cars, go ahead, no one's stopping you... No one dragged you in here... Ferraris are in General Discussion, this is Off Topic... | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 113 Registered: 2-2003 |
Rich, One of the most important lines in the Bible: Judge not yest ye be judged Lets end it here. I will not Judge anyone in this room. Hell mabey 100 years from now we will be ALL up in heaven having a good laugh. LOL | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 112 Registered: 2-2003 |
James, I agree and would shake your hand if I could ( come down to Kansas LOL). I don't want to talk about religion and feel I am being forced to (I have to defend my deep down soul beliefs). I can�t just sit back and watch people tear down my belief system. You have to respect that. I beg of everyone in this room: Let me go back to talking about cars. Lets not talk about Religion today. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 561 Registered: 10-2001 |
James, I have no doubt that you are a nice person. As I've often said, Christians are good neighbors. But I think you are missing my point if you think you are not judging me. I believe you that you wouldn't verbalize such things and tell me there is something wrong with me: that doesn't seem to be your style. But if you really believe in the teachings of the Christian religion and its bible, there is a built in belief that one must believe in god. It is the only correct belief to have. One must believe in his word. Etc. As I do not believe those things, by default, you believe I am somehow flawed. That's what makes me uncomfortable with Christians. I have no problem with them on a daily level, of course. But when one stops to think about it deeper, this issue arises. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1198 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dan Gordon and James Dunne: let me ask this - did you get into Christianity because of some major influence in your life (parents, etc) (most likely) or did you systematically analyze all of the religions in the world, look at them all at face value, decide which ones had moral values, etc. you liked, and then believe in it? Your answer speaks volumes. --Dan | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1308 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dan: I agree it's a car chat room. But , I'm relating a general experience. When I ask a rational question, I'm told I'm being offensive. What I'm pointing out is taht there's a disconnect between the sense of accountability required of me, and the accepeted sense of accountability of those whom I ask. My point being, is that I shouldn't have to be told that I"m offensive simply b/c I disagree. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2477 Registered: 6-2001 |
The ethics of most religions are pretty good. The ten commandments are generally a good idea to follow. Even not eating pork was a great idea until we found how to avoid various diseases that came from not cooking it enough. If indeed those who are religious followed those precepts without preaching, I'd say they were pretty good people. It's those who take it further, attempt to effect society based upon their beliefs, and who instinctively feel their superior to those who may not believe that I find objectionable. Again, I don't what people believe, I don't have to have to hear it, I don't want them, making sure that my tax dollars don't provide the best research and development on things which may effect how I live. Art | ||
| James Dunne (Audiguy)
Member Username: Audiguy Post Number: 252 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dan, I must apologize to you. I misunderstood the first line of one of your posts as being from you but it was a quote from someone else. Sorry, | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 111 Registered: 2-2003 |
You know what's offensive to me, Dan? The guy, in my town, that has 6 foot posters of aborted fetus' plastered to it, that parks in front of grade schools, middle schools, and high school in my community, and stands on the corner espousing on the evils of sex, and the right to choose. Thats offensive! I AGREE WITH THE ABOVE STATEMENT I agree some people take it to far. But your doing the same thing. You need to be better than that. We should find a better place to talk about this than a car chat room. | ||
| James Dunne (Audiguy)
Member Username: Audiguy Post Number: 251 Registered: 6-2003 |
Okay, Just a quick question. Dan, where have I offended you because I say I am a Christian? Did I try to force it on you? Nope? Did I say you are a bad person because you do not hold the same beliefs I do? Nope! Did I say you are going to hell for what you believe or don't believe? Nope? Did I say I am any better or any worse a person than you? Nope. And I will not. Like I said. It is a personal choice I made for myself and myself only. You are certainly free to make you own choices. If you choose to attempt to offend me for what I believe, well I guess that is your choice also. I do not understand how I am being offensive to you for having a belief different from yours. If this were the case for all humans, I guess all of us would be offended by everyone else on the planet. I may be wrong, but I believe you are offended by those we see who are forceful and attempt to force their beliefs on others. So am I. Either way, I do not believe in trying to force something, anything on someone else. You and I agree on that if that is what you are put off by. I extend my hand to you, will you accept it? | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 110 Registered: 2-2003 |
The reson I am sounding off DES is because I was brought up to defend my Religion like I would defend a member of my family. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1306 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dan: the imperative condition being "if I offended, if" But, you know what, it's apphaling to me that I , as a rational human being, have to belittle my questioning of an discrimatory, prejudiced and sometimes fanatical belief system , by having my questions regarded as "offensive." That's BS, Dan. Inquisition is fundamental to establishing credibility, the problem with those that ascribe themselves social position on account of their religious belief is that they tend to shy away from the ugliness of their own faith by using the "offended" trump card, and shushing a question audience, but don't feel the same sense of accountability when the try to tell me that I'm evil ( I might be offended for being called "evil," but honestly it's laughable) for believing that kids should have access to condoms, that women should choose weather or not abortion is right for their situation, ad nauseum. No one on that end considers their actions to be "offensive" because they've got christened with a halo of taboo. You know what's offensive to me, Dan? The guy, in my town, that has 6 foot posters of aborted fetus' plastered to it, that parks in front of grade schools, middle schools, and high school in my community, and stands on the corner espousing on the evils of sex, and the right to choose. Thats offensive! I'm also offended by those trying to push prayer in schools (what happened to freedom of religion? what about the hindu in the grade school class? Oh, right, it's only freedom to practice what the majority believes, right?) I'm offended by others telling me (as a child in sunday school) that exploring my body and that mastrubation is evil and shamful (thanks for the childhood anxieties, by the way), and I'm offended by the constant battery of fodder coming from the religious constituents that refuse to admit the fact that they don't know squat about science, but still attempt to comment w/ "authority" about the scope of MY research. That's laughable. Fact is Dan, if we (as a people) don't realize that : yes, religion is a good buffer to the harsh realities of life, but that it has no place in the progression of a culture b/c it isolates and stratifies us, then we're never going to move toward any ideal of unilatteral acceptance. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5876 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dan, if you truly believed in the cra- er, "teachings" in the bible, you wouldn't be offended... My opinion is just that- my opinion. No reason for you to be offended if you're secure in your religion... Now, if you feel you've been forced into the belief like so many others, well, then, that's another story, entirely... | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 109 Registered: 2-2003 |
"Conform with the majority' - another typical christian practice..." What part of the bible did you get this out of DES? Its not about conforming to the bible its about not offending people deep down to there soul. I thought you were better than that. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 108 Registered: 2-2003 |
And, if I offend a Christian, it's long overdue" You guys are trying to hard to offend people. Look good and hard at yourself why are you trying to offend people? Do you have some insecurity about your religious beliefs? It�s easy to offend but hard to look at why your offending. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1305 Registered: 1-2002 |
Art: No worries. I know what you mean. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5874 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dan, those people who would befriend me only if i didn't publicly talk about religion are exactly the kinds of people i don't want to be my friends... 'Conform with the majority' - another typical christian practice... | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2474 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hubert: I got stuck with "honeyods" at home. I'm getting a new car, and I'm on my best behavior. Sorry about that. Art | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 107 Registered: 2-2003 |
Okay DES here is my opinion: religion is a soft spot for most people. People get offended very easily. I can't prove that God exsists to you; you can't prove God doesn't exsist to me. But one thing I can prove to you: You will have more friends if you don't talk publicly about religion. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1304 Registered: 1-2002 |
Art: thanks. I"m not a laywer, and probably doing the world a favor by just peeking into that realm. PS: what happened to you? YOu never email about buttonwillow? I had my passanger seat put in , awaiting your call??? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5870 Registered: 8-2002 |
LMAO...! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2472 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hubert: Roe v. Wade is based upon a 1928 decision by Brendies in which he, when writing the decision, declared that one of our rights was a right of privacy. As a direct result of that decision, we've been able to protect our privacy since then. In California, its written into our constitution since about 1940, and since it doesn't depend upon Roe v. Wade, it can't be touched. By the way, I'm not bashing religion. My personal feelings are that it isn't much, but I don't bother to tell people what my personal feelings are usually. What I don't want or like is someone who is religious telling me that their beliefs are something that I have to listen to, read, or otherwise be subjected to. If they leave me alone, I'll do the same. Art | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1303 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dan: right, love your neighbor. That's fine, but last time I asked a self proclaimed "christian" I was told that "...no, only christians , in the glory of god, can go to heaven..." So, by deduction, Dan, if there's a heaven , there's gotta be a hell, and if the christian paradigm is the only one in the universe (evidenced by the existence of heaven) than where does the rest of the world go? Hell. Logical deduction. Therefore, if the christian paradigm is "real" the rest of the faithful, go to hell. For simply not being christain, nevermind their lives of purity, piousness and good will. And, if I offend a christian, it's long overdue , since they've been offending me all my life, trying to infuse their belief system , by force, into my rights and liberties. | ||
| James Dunne (Audiguy)
Junior Member Username: Audiguy Post Number: 250 Registered: 6-2003 |
Rich, Just allow me to say that I am by no means the judge in all this. I do not judge others for their beliefs or lack of such. If I choose to believe in Jesus, that is a personal choice of mine. I am not self righteous either. I make mistakes and really screw up sometimes. I lose my temper and say some things I shouldn't. Am I proud of those times? No, of course not, but they happen. In the Bible it tells us to go and spread the good news. I am not a street corner preacher who thumps his Bible and screams at the top of his lungs that all who don't believe are going to hell. That is not his choice to make either. I believe that if the subject comes up, I will share my beliefs and allow others to make their own choices. I am sorry you feel uncomfortable around Christians. I am sure if you met me face to face, you would not feel threatened or judged. Heck, you might even like me. This was a life choice I made and try to live. I am not perfect, in fact far from it. There are a few people on F/C who know me personally and probably until I voiced this choice of mine, it had never come up before. They are probably surprised to even hear this from me. How about it Rob? Are we still okay? George LeFleur?, Jim S.?, JimE? We are all on this planet as human beings and I only wish I knew the magic formula for having us all understand each other and live in peace. But apparently that is not possible. I will do what I can to live peaceably with my fellow man and not put anyone in the light of judgment by myself. For me to judge someone else, I would need to be perfect myself and of course I am not. I accept that. You have nothing to fear from me in making unfair judgments of you. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5868 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dan, off topic is here precisely for this reason; so we can talk about things (seemingly anything) that's "off" the "topic" of Ferraris... Some of us know a lot about christianity and hence, that's where our opinions come from... We're not 'bashing' it, just stating our opinions... Why not join in rather than chastise...? More people will listen to what you have to say if you offer an opinion rather than just telling us to stop doing what we're doing - which, ironically, happens to be typical of christianity... | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1302 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>At any rate as long as I don't have to listen to it, people can believe whatever they wish.<< Art : that may work during the interim, but if "they" keep talking, after a while they'll have someone listening, enough people listening, and they become a judicious force attempting to infringe on YOUR right toward agnosticism, and your values at home; viz a vie the crackheads that demand prayer in school, banning condom distribution in high school , and the repeal of roe v. wade. ( Tnagentially, even if you follow the argument that roe v. wade should be repealled b/c it's not a constitutional ruling on account of constituition lack of an explicit deed to "right to privacy." If that happens , we go bach a century, socially. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2003 |
Are you guys trying to offend people? Why do you have to bash religion in a Ferrari chat room? I don't care if its off topic don't bash people�s beliefs. For you guys who don�t know Christianity doesn�t say that everyone who is not a Christian will burn in hell. In fact we are taught to love God and love our neighbor to open the gates to heaven. KNOW WHAT YOUR BASHINIG BEFORE YOU BASH IT. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2470 Registered: 6-2001 |
James: I have absolutely no problem allowing people to believe in whatever they wish. I do have a problem in that some of them want me to have to listen, to their beliefs. Examples of their foisting their beliefs upon me are: 1. Putting "In God We Trust" on my money, 2. Making the pledge of allegance say "under god", 3. Putting a version of the ten commandments into varioius court rooms. Yes I have a plane, and yes, I've seen some of the prettiest women get off of planes in the arms of some of those TV personalities. I have no problem with other people's beliefs. I have a problem when they restrict scientific research because of those beliefs. I guess the problem that I have regarding religion is that people tend to shove it in my face, when I don't want them to. My personal belief is that as we as a race have become more knowledgeable, the inherient falisity of religion becomes more and more obvious, and as that occurs, those we believe become more and more strident about shoving their beliefs into my life, adversly affecting me. If Einstein is correct (and every scientific paper that I've seen, shows that when tested, his theories prove accurate to the ability of our testing) then there cannot be a diety such as worshiped by our race. Einstein knew that, and repeatedly declared that he did not believe in a "personal god." At any rate as long as I don't have to listen to it, people can believe whatever they wish. Art | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1300 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>Why this god was so insecure that he needed to create a whole planet full of people and bribe them into telling him how great he is has never been answered.<< Rich: that's b/c the "followers" who invented , or "purveyed," this belief system just happened to hold civil power. Funny how insecurity is an excellent scare tactic. Kings ruled with , and were annointed, with divine rights and infallibility. Hmmm, gee, that's novel, isn't it? I'm not a marxist, but he had it right "...religion is the opiate of the masses..." | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5865 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rich - LMAO...! That fuggin' ROCKS...! When i grow up, i wanna be like Rich & Hubert...! | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 560 Registered: 10-2001 |
That's right Hubert. The reason is that in Christianity, it isn't about how one lives and how one treats others. In the Christian belief system, humans exist for only one reason: to worship their creator. Why this god was so insecure that he needed to create a whole planet full of people and bribe them into telling him how great he is has never been answered. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1298 Registered: 1-2002 |
I'm w/ rich. I've always loved (insert sarcsasm) how under christain beliefs the isalm fellow, or the buddhist , or the hindu , or whomever (be it a non-christian) is condemnded to hell, simply b/c they're not "christian" through and through; obliterating the possibility that they've been as pious, or more, than any equivelant human of the christian faith. It people can't understand how even holding that single idea as truth is outright bling ignorant faith, then there's no use aruing with a mute. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 559 Registered: 10-2001 |
James, perhaps from your side the relationship is not damaged. But many non-Christians have a problem with the self-righteousness built into Christian beliefs. It's hard to have a positive relationship with someone whose belief system is that only they have correct beliefs and that others are wrong and are going to hell for it. I personally can't deal with that sort of person on a very deep level. You may claim that you allow others to have their own opinions, but in reality you do not (if you are indeed a Christian). You can't. It's built into your belief system that all other opinions are simply wrong. (this is why christianity and a pluralistic democracy are totally incompatible). I know many Christians and have them in my family but it's troubling to know that deep down they believe that only they are living correctly and only they know the "truth". I do not appreciate being declared a sinner. The typical response is that "we are all sinners". Well, in your belief system, yes. But not in mine. I think I live a damn righteous lifestyle and am comfortable with my own concepts of morality and don't feel the need to submit to a vengeful god in order to free myself of "sin". | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1296 Registered: 1-2002 |
Frankly, we'd all be better of if the world just imploded. Everyone could just live happily ever after in their own afterlife (or realize that there isn't one), and none of this torture veiled in the name of religious sanctity would have a medium within which to continue. Either that, or the world should collectivly disavow religious practice. | ||
| James Dunne (Audiguy)
Junior Member Username: Audiguy Post Number: 249 Registered: 6-2003 |
Art, Do you have a plane? I know for a fact that the James Robison ministry has one and it is used to bring in food to some of the African countries by the planeload. He does not use it to fly all over the world asking for money. I also know that he pays himself a lot less than you probably make a year. Like $150k. He also lives in a $200k home. Because he chose to follow his heart and reach out to others who are hurting, does this make him some kind of crook? Yes, his ministry takes in a fair amount of money but his books are open and are audited regularly. Unlike some of the other TV guys, his administration costs are much lower and much more is funneled back into help for others. Not all TV guys are the same, just as all of us are not the same. I am proud to say that I am a Christian and a beliver in Jesus Christ. I do not follow the restrictions of religion as many people think of it. True religion is restrictive, confining and governed by sets of rules that even a saint could not live under. There is a difference between religion and having a relationship with Jesus. A relationship with Jesus is freeing, not confining. It is laced with love and understanding for others. Only once will you find Jesus getting upset and that is when money merchants (something akin to credit card vendors) set up shop in the temple and were selling their wares within the walls of the church. And he did not hurt them, just turned over their tables and had them move outside. Even when he was being arrested he showed compassion on the guard whose ear Peter had severed with his sword. He could have called on his followers to rise up and die against the armies of Rome, but he did not. He had a destinty to fulfill and he did so. Christianity does not bind me with a bunch of man-made rules and restrictions. A relationship with Jesus frees me to be myself and live in harmony with those around me. It also has me allow you your opinions and I hope you allow me mine. It allows me to agree to disagree with you without affecting any relationships we have. We have a good number of like interests and it looks like some we do not agree on. I am mature enough to allow you yours. How about you my friend. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 557 Registered: 10-2001 |
Sounds very similar to, "Don't hate the player, hate the game"? | ||
| Augustine J. Staino (Azzuro328)
Junior Member Username: Azzuro328 Post Number: 203 Registered: 4-2003 |
14th Century? Wow, I hadn't realized that they had made it that far! | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 696 Registered: 3-2002 |
Will they ever get out of the 14th Century ? | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 284 Registered: 4-2001 |
Would be nice to see NOW and our other feminist groups do somethibg really usefull and take on these issues in the Islamic world rather than sit on their butts in DC and whine about how bad things are here for women. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2468 Registered: 6-2001 |
Rob: Some of those TV guys have planes. I run into some of them on occassion. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've seen. Art | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2865 Registered: 9-2001 |
That's a major difference between Islam and Christianity. Jesus taught to forgive the sinner and hate the sin they committed. The Muslims seem to hate both the sinner and the sin . | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6060 Registered: 12-2000 |
Yep, give money to a TV evangelist. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2467 Registered: 6-2001 |
This is what you get when you believe in this type of BS. That goes for all of the religions, they make you do insane things. Art | ||
| Aaron Williams (Aawil)
Member Username: Aawil Post Number: 301 Registered: 8-2002 |
Pathetic is probably an understatement really. I had heard of a similar story before and it is retarded. They would have to kill most of the population over here. | ||
| James P. Smith (Tigermilk)
Junior Member Username: Tigermilk Post Number: 187 Registered: 7-2001 |
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/08/27/nigeria.stoning.ap/index.html This is just pathetic and borders (or is) barbarianism. |