| Author | Message | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3791 Registered: 8-2002 |
Craig, they called me and gave me the job...  | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2221 Registered: 9-2001 |
FerrariChat is a powerful tool. It helped me settle an issue with an FNA dealer last year . | ||
| Craig A (Milo)
Junior Member Username: Milo Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2003 |
Bill, How would one go about getting that job I wonder? Imagine getting to monitor FC all day. Hell I do it now and don't get paid. Oh, gotta go... I hear the boss coming. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 800 Registered: 2-2002 |
I wouldn't discount the fact that FNA monitors this site. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1359 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yes, I indeed feel fortunate. I was really surprised by the speed of FNA's decision! Wow! Rob, FNA was contacted by my dealer, at my urging. There was no mention of FC by me... Matt (The Don), already on that. I have asked my dealer service director for the specific name of the person at FNA who said "Yes", specifically so I can send him/her & the new FNA President a very nice Thank You letter. Which I will CHEERFULLY do, as they just saved me thousands of $$$ and a lot of angst... Car should be back tomorrow. It will be used this weekend!!!!!  Thank you all, again, for your kind wishes! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3377 Registered: 2-2001 |
There are inherent issues with making a car have ridiculous HP, near track setup, and still be a normal reliable, etc. car. Everybody ignores this, but look at other 500+hp cars and the issues involved with them, expensive or not, it creates problems. FNA did a great job here. Not that I like British cars, but anyone that says Lotus doesn't know what they're doing... Who did GM outsource for the ZR1 engines? Interesting how General Motors felt Lotus was good enough to build engines for them, seems to me they just might be a decent builder. | ||
| Bob Cowart (Bob_cowart)
New member Username: Bob_cowart Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2003 |
The reliability, quality issue is one that is deserving of further debate. I don't believe anybody here on this board would be opposed to improved Ferrari reliability. No matter how you spin it, it is lacking. Making up excuses for Ferrari is not going to improve reliabilty. Voicing your concern in a professional manner through the appropriate channels will help. Someone earlier bemoaned VW owning Lamborghini, but doesn't Fiat own Ferrari. Does Fiat make reliable cars?!?!.. Does VW.. I look forward to seeing how quality control plays out in the new Lambos. I bet they become more reliable. Competition is good and it's about to heat up. I love Ferraris and I am a prospective buyer, I look forward to seeing how things shape up in the future. Bob | ||
| TC (Houston) (Tec)
Junior Member Username: Tec Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dave, I must admit, while I was hopeful for a favorable resolution I was not expecting this, especially so quickly. That is one hell of a precedent for FNA to set. Good for them and good for you for taking such an activist approach. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3470 Registered: 9-2001 |
Great to hear !!!!!!!!! , | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
Junior Member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 53 Registered: 8-2002 |
Right on Dave!! Glad to hear things worked out. BTW, give me a shout when you get a chance. | ||
| Craig A (Milo)
New member Username: Milo Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2003 |
Faisal, Are you reading the same post by PSK that I am? If so what does the great service Dave got from FNA have to do with the fact that Ferraris are not reliable cars? I believe in all of PSK's posts the discussion was on reliablility of the car not FNA service. I'm happy to hear FNA went beyond the warranty and honored and backed the car. It is always good to hear a good customer service story. They did the right thing. Did they have to? Nope, but they did. Thumbs up! Ferrari water pumps still suck though. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2003 |
PSK, You contradicted everyone who said this was not acceptable. When challenged, you claimed that you were making the same point, or describing a different side of the same coin. I can't wait to see how you claim that this is consistent with the BS you have been posting. Faisal. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2003 |
Well done. Congrats!!! As soon as you get the car back, go for a long drive to forget all the worries. Enjoy, Faisal. | ||
| Kz (Kzma)
Junior Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 64 Registered: 3-2003 |
Don good idea about the thank you letter! | ||
| Kz (Kzma)
Junior Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2003 |
AWESOME!! Way to go Dave! You have set the ground work and paved the trail for future "legitimate" quality issues for the rest of us. And I for one truley appreciate that | ||
| Bob Cowart (Bob_cowart)
New member Username: Bob_cowart Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2003 |
A big thumbs up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bob | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 4327 Registered: 8-2002 |
FNA has a bad rap. I have found them nice and friendly. They always seem willing to help or direct me in the right direction. FNA is doing a wonderful job in my opinion. After all, Customer service is a difficult job in any profession. Ferrari owners compound the issues even more. Dave, Send them a thank you letter. I doubt they get very many. People seem to complain more about them then thank them. Matt | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 507 Registered: 9-2002 |
Glad to hear there was an amicable resolve. --Dan | ||
| Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 153 Registered: 4-2002 |
Congrats Dave. Good to see the company help out! Patrick | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1448 Registered: 2-2001 |
Holy crap, Dave! I have been reading your ordeal on the two threads... Congratulations! It sure is a load off your back! I am so relieved for you! Ernesto | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4700 Registered: 12-2000 |
Were they reading the board or did you contact them directly? Or a little of both? Congrats Dave, I believe FNA did the right thing in this case. All of the rest of us will have to pay for it, but the things you had problems with shouldn't fail that early. They are a defect plain and simple, whether only your car had the problem or all of them. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1356 Registered: 1-2002 |
   HOLY COW!!! Good news update: Amazingly (or not), FNA has come through in spades!!! They will be covering ALL of these repairs, gratis!!!!!!! Work should be completed today, the car detailed, and trailered back to me tomorrow!!! THANK YOU, FNA!!! And thank you also to everyone on this board, especially those who stringly urged me to work through FNA instead of getting mad... You all have my gratitude. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4697 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jim, I know you've been a user for awhile, but it's an honor to have you on FerrariChat.com. Welcome! | ||
| Mfennell70 (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 128 Registered: 7-2001 |
One point where Lotus has it all over Ferrari is customer service. Not having a waiting list, LCU (Lotus Cars USA) know they have to satisfy their customers. Stories abound about LCU employees going out of their way for customers. The head field engineer is just an e-mail away and he *will* respond. Further, they are very free with information - if there's a systemic problem, you'll find out about it. Of course, they've been building basically the same car for 25 years... | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1353 Registered: 1-2002 |
OK, here's an update. I spoke with Chris in the Warranty Service Dept. of FNA. He said the 1st step is to have my dealer contact its Area Tech Mgr., whose name he gave me, to investigate. He said that there is a possibility of some consideration given to my problem (none guaranteed). So I have asked the dealer Service & Parts Director, with whom I have a superb relationship, to do just this. I will continue to post updates here... | ||
| Peter Topman (Peter_topman)
New member Username: Peter_topman Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2002 |
328'S are very reliable. | ||
| Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member Username: Fuiszt Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave's car didn't fail. He drove it into the dealer for the 15K service. Obviously engines exploding is a problem that requires kid glove treatment-BMW did what they had to-no choice. I think the real problem is that Ferrari rightly believes the vast majority of the cars they make are sunny sunday drivers. There is little expectation of 100K miles of trouble-free driving. Most of the high-end manufacturers have realized that you only have to please the guy who buys it new, and since he or she is probably only going to have it for less that 24 months. The fact that the 550 can kick ass at Nardo and also be comfortable enough to drive everyday is a problem. We now expect that if you can use it instead of a Camry it ought to last like a Camry. Its not a Camry. There's a guy near my house that leaves his outside, year round and drives his kids to school in it year round. I'll have to ask him if his shocks are leaking-somehow I bet he doesn't care. | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Junior Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 176 Registered: 2-2003 |
I absolutely agree with Dave L. Well said, the NSX is the pinnacle of reliabilty. If the Ferrari is the Pinnacle of Performance/Design, the NSX is the thing to strive for in terms of quality control. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Member Username: Davel Post Number: 265 Registered: 7-2001 |
Dave has every right to: 1.Post and bi--- here all he wants and commentary that he shouldnt be is well...BULL----!! Its his car and he is a member of this forum. 2. He has a right be upset at the timing of these multiple failures and seek a remedy from whoever is at fault. 3. He has a right to expect that the car should not fail in such a manner considering the price he paid and the small number of miles he has placed on the car. 4. WE as a group of car lovers, owners and enthusiasts expect, given the technology and practices used to build a car today, that they should last and work properly well past the warranty period. 5. Thank god for the NSX!!! This car is exactly why we feel our other "EXOTICS" should be reliable, fun and worth the entry fee. This car is what Ferrari should be building...in terms of reliability and durability. It is the only exotic that is actually a reliable daily driver whether you like the car or not. Yes I know all the worn out arguments about this car lacking soul etc etc...WHATEVER! The damn thing works and can be used all day for the most part and you can rack up unreal mileage on it with some hint of reliability. No..I dont think it looks that great but in the reliability area..it is the model to strive for. Dave..good luck and I for one..after owning 3 Lotus turbos (which by the way PSK never let me down including the 86 that was my daily for over a year), can relate to the situation you are in. The car shouldnt be doing this..in my oh so humble opinion | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 851 Registered: 10-2001 |
I keep thinking of the Cubs. For years they put crappy, over the hill players on the field, lose 90 plus games and fill the stands. Why? The Cubs have that mystique. Wrigley Field is a Pininfarina body. Both Ferraris and the bleachers attract beautiful women. Am I a Cub fan? You bet. Would I buy a Ferrari? You bet. Will the Cubs win a World Series or Ferraris be a reliable car? I'm not holding my breath. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 409 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, Yep totally aware that Lotus engineer for many major manufacturers as does Porsche. And I am glad that your Lotus has never let you down, but if you did a statistical check of Ferrari versus Lotus ... I would bet that they would be as bad as each other. Agree on your comment regarding Bosch and VW, but VW owners have problems too (I guess) ... I could go on about another German manufacturer of mass-market cars but don't want to be sued. The difference here is that they have paid X dollars and accept this and Dave has paid 3X and does not accept that Ferrari just make a car with NO more quality than any other. Take the badge of a Ferrari and it would only sell for half the price ... they are not twice any other car, performance or quality ... they just have very good marketing and thus can charge hard. Thus reversing what you said you have the same Bosch components in your Ferrari as a $20,000 VW ... and yet expect it to perform 10 times better ????, why Jason, Turbine blades are a lot more expensive than the simple one offs that I was talking about. Yes ofcourse quality is not quantity based but when you are talking cars, large quantity means you can afford to do expensive research. I am sure you do not want to pay for your Ferrari if it was engineered as well as a Turbine blade ... which is far higher than is need for a simple 4 rubber tyred people mover thingy. A F360 would probably cost over 1 million dollars then ... totally different engineering. I worked for a company that made airport bagage conveyor equipment and freight moving stuff ... which is simplier than cars yes but not by that much ... but million times simplier than Nuclear engineering. Horses for courses. I bet if you bought a F1 Ferrari of modern times the engineering quality would be up to what you guys expect ... but no road car is perfect ... it is a huge compromise. Japanese build the BEST cars for reliability, but even they cock up and massive recalls are required. Sh!t even BMW who have made many millions of engines f**ked up their M3 engine, but have come to the party (excellent) and yet you guys expect a little car maker like Ferrari who only make around 1000 cars a year (don't know real numbers) to play at that level ... Yes they should be at that level in service, but ... Somebody mentioned that there is around 100 550s in America, I bet there is more than a million Hondas or BMWs. In the end other european companies that I could name would simply say 'who cares' we only sell such small numbers there it is not worth our worry ... but I do know that the US market is important to Ferrari. Thus write to FNA and do the work but don't moan on about a limited production car failing on a web site ... that is the norm, and normal people driving normal cars like me (who has a huge knowledge of all the bullsh!t that goes on in the automotive industry) is just going to say you bought the wrong car. If I ever can afford a Ferrari, I will be buying it with my eyes open and while not expecting these faults would not be surprised. And yes I have built my own racing cars to, that piss all over any Ferrari that I raced against, the difference is that car had my full attention during building and developing that would in dollar terms have cost more than the car cost me to build. Real manufacturers can only afford to do that if they have the money to do that ... thus this is where the large volumes are required, because the bank will lend them the research money. Nobody, as much as I love Ferraris and Italian cars, can tell me that a Ferrari is actually worth twice every other car and $50,000 more than a better engineered Porsche ... thus you pay a huge premium for the badge and the Italian soul. In the end a Ferrari is just a car, not made as well as many, many other makes because the investment in manufacturing technology is also not justified. Look I do not really care, but all I want to say in the end is it does not matter how much you pay for anything, things break even on near new Ferraris. Pete | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 320 Registered: 3-2001 |
Pete, You'd better hope that your comments regarding low volume production quality are 'off base' because my old company used to do exactly that.... make 'one off' rows of turbine blades for amongst other places Nuclear Power Plants....Those parts are centrifically loaded at several thousand rpm's & depending on the design of the reactor,they are also radioactive. Quality isn't about learning through quantity, it's about process control, both internal and external (namely subcontractors). There are enough quality systems available today (e.g. 6 sigma, which has a failure allowance of 3.4 parts per million) that one should be able to produce ultra low volume with exceptional quality. | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
Junior Member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 52 Registered: 8-2002 |
Pete, Unfortunately you're making excuses for Ferrari and you're not an Automotive Engineer. Why should the BOSCH Electronics in a Ferrari be any more prone to failure than the BOSCH Electronics in, for example, a VW. And save all the "limited edition" and "stress" malarkey. (for christsakes, I've engineered ONE-OFF vehicles with more QC control *and* more performance) There IS no viable reason, other than: 1) They spec'd the damn part wrong, (or) 2) They didn't keep a eye on their supplier, in this case BOSCH, who doesn't need eyes kept on them. BTW, Iv'e owned an Esprit V8, used it as a daily driver and had not ONE "serious" problem with it. FWIW, Lotus most certainly DOES make their own engines for the Esprit. They also engineer them for a rather large lot of other companies. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 408 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yep Pete | ||
| Louis Goldstein (Lgoldstein)
New member Username: Lgoldstein Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2002 |
"...even the new 911 is just a modified 356." Taking a little poetic license there, huh Pete? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hahaha, now I have to laugh at one or your comments Jim,
Lotus are rattlely, squeaky problematic pieces of junk IMO (if you own one I appologise and mean no disrespect, but come on ... they don't even make their own engines and gearboxes), like most English cars. My Mother is service receptionist for a major dealership that has Lotus as one of its marques (including Aston Martin, Porsche, Lamborgini, Bentley and others ... they sell a few Ferraris too but I think mainly second hand). They are constantly getting complaints of rattles and squeaks and leaky sun roofs, etc. with Lotus's (Loti?). But everything else you stated is correct ... a Ferrari is just a car and I think that we are getting excited about a few minor problems that happen on all vehicles and the problem here is that Dave has hardly used the car and now it is out of waranty. I feel for him, but having lived with a service manager Father and my Mum and heard all the stories this is minor stuff and the norm for most exotic cars. The biggest difference is that Porsche for example has only designed about 4 road cars in its complete history and continually modified and improved along the way, even the new 911 is just a modified 356. The others such as Ferrari make many more designs and thus the result is more mistakes. Thus if you don't like to live with these issues buy from a mojor manufacturer. Can you imagine the problems that my Mums company gets with Aston Martin, Bentley and Lamborgini who all together make less cars than Ferrari do ... possibly (not sure of the figures ...) Anyway make a noise as you should, but a car is very complex, especially with all the modern electronics and only the big manufacturers get it right (most of the time) really the rest just have a guess. Pete | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
Junior Member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2002 |
PSk, I hate to comment here.. and blaspheme some more, but this statement: "After all not many other cars are going to load that part like a Ferrari with heaps of power does." Is a bit off base, I'm sorry.. but Ferrari are simply not that powerful compared to the other serious drivers cars out there, nor does "loading" have to do with a shock failing, that's a faulty seal. Nor an A/C evaporator, nor a water pump. (You've got Corvettes that have 405hp & 400 lb-ft, Vipers at 500+, Lambos at 500+, Aston Martin, etc.. The BMW M5 has 394 as well) As far as building "1000 cars", I hate to say it but LOTUS (the bloody Brits!) can build a few hundred and have them hold together better than most Ferrari on average. Sad, but true. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 500 Registered: 9-2002 |
Patrick has a point, and I'd be more than happy to help out. I've been part of similar such things with BMW NA for the E39 M5, and believe me, we got results (of course, we also took some pretty drastic steps). --Dan | ||
| Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 152 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hell, here is the number: Ferrari of North America (201) 816-2600 Patrick | ||
| Patman36 (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 151 Registered: 4-2002 |
I don't think you guys understand the leverage you have. Dave, call FNA and see what they say; they either help you out or give you the boot. If they kick you in the balls and tell you to get lost, post the FNA number and then ask owners on the site to call them up and give them a piece of their mind. If they continually get calls all day about the same problem, maybe you could get someone to address these problems with your 550? How many times in Ferrari's life do you think 50 or so new Ferrari owners have called up and complained to them about their handling of a specific problem like this? Rob has designed a place here that aggregates many Ferrari owners and enthusiasts. I would say if a bunch of recently new Ferrari owners (people who have recently purchased 360's, 550's, 575's, multiple F-car owners) called and complained, maybe Ferrari would step up to the plate and offer some kind of assitance? Just a thought, I'm sure some of you will think it is stupid. But it has worked many times before with the crowd I normally "hang" with. I am sorry to hear about the problems, it would make me sick to have to go through this. Good luck! Patrick EDIT: I just read Bob's response and that is just what I am getting at. Dave alone has little chance of "strong-arming" FNA. Dave x 50 may get something done... | ||
| Bob Cowart (Bob_cowart)
New member Username: Bob_cowart Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2003 |
Doody, Maranelloman The BMW Roadfly site is a forum much like Ferrarichat where enthusiasts get together to celebrate their cars and complain about their shortcomings. It also became the medium through which owners could discuss their engine failures (model E46 M3). When enough of these failures occurred it became evident that there was an inherent problem with the engine. Roadfly begin documenting engine failures via owners who were frustrated with their experience, and who were encouraged to share their story. Information requested was: the date of the engine failure, the build date of the car and the engine componen(s) failure. Initially, BMWNA blamed the engine failures on zealous owners over revving their engines. As engine failures became more frequent and information relating to the failures became more readily available it became obvious that there was a rod-bearing problem. This information completely contradicted BMWNA'a position as faulty rod bearings has nothing to do with over revving. The information gathered from owners who experienced engine failures also illustrated that these problems were inherent with cars built between 10/02 and 12/02. The eventual documentation of over 100 failures was the basis for a dialogue with BMWNA. Due to numerous letters from owners to BMWNA management, an acknowledgment was eventually forth coming from BMWNA. Because of this constant pressure from disgruntled customers all Model Year 01,02,03 M3's were granted an extension to their warranty (engine only) from 4 years, 50,000 miles to 6 years and 100,000 miles. In addition they were able to diagnose the reason for the faulty rod bearings and have offered a rod bearing replacement to all customers with cars built between 9/01 through 2/02.An overlap of 2 months. The bottom line is that it took threatening letters to BMWNA and notes to Autoweek, Car and Driver R&T etc..I would like to think that BMWNA would have eventually come around on its own. We will never know. Regardless, the problem was solved. This is my third M3 and based on the way BMWNA responded I'm probably a lifer. The power of the pen is very poignant. Organize yourselves and start the process. Here is the site if you care to learn more about the method used. http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum When you get there go to the right of the board and click on engine failures. There is a wealth of info and I'm sure you will get some good ideas. Be persistant and good luck - Bob | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 406 Registered: 11-2002 |
Okay Jim and others, you go and built 1000 cars a year and see if you get it right. I am not supporting Ferrari here but you have not read my post right. Ferrari make performance cars not reliable cars. Reliability takes testing and costs money ... lots of money which believe it or not Ferrari don't have enough to spend on R&D (as like you say they have F1 to support). Also it is probably NOT the OEM suppliers fault but the way Ferrari is using that part. After all not many other cars are going to load that part like a Ferrari with heaps of power does. I am not supporting Ferrari at all, but I think you all are being narrow minded, and yep take it to FNA and yep they should replace, but unless Ferrari upscale their manufacturing OR stop F1 you will always have performance comes before reliability as that is how they sell their cars. Note the comments regarding TVR and they used to use Rover production motors. You have small runs and low development you have problems. Unless your performance house actually manufacturers things I don't think you will understand what has to happen in the background of the manufacturing process. No other business requires such a huge investment in testing, etc. and yes all businesses require good management but running a shop (no disrespect anywhere intended) does not have the enormous overhead of testing and designing products for production runs. Again not defending Ferrari, but what do you want, small runs of exotic cars of fast Toyotas/Hondas/FIATS, etc. Pete | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2002 |
Another Italian experience (Ducati) http://speedzilla.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=13343 And there are plenty more on that site ... thus like I said Italians make lovely stuff but service and quality are not in the equation ... if you want that look elsewhere or prepare for some stress. It should not be this way at all and I do not support this but can't see it every changing ... not while Ferrari have a 3 year waiting list and Ducati don't exactly have too much trouble selling bikes ... as they look and performance fantastic and make the heart race Pete | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
New member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 50 Registered: 8-2002 |
But ARE the "new ones" any more reliable than the older ones? Is a new 360 that much more reliable than a 328? I mean, REALLY.. with the level of routine maintenace that a Ferrari gets, NOTHING should BREAK.. EVER! I'm sorry but all this "But it's a Ferrari" cr*p is just that, complete and utter rubbish. The real problem is Ferrari's failure to keep tabs on their suppliers who produce and provide the parts. It's not endemically Italian people.. **I'm** Italian and I run one of the tighest controlled BMW aftermarket performance houses in the industry. Probably THE tightest. Sorry, my heritage and love for a good pesto really DON'T have anything to do with the quality of my work. Why does it happen? Poor Management / Mismanagement Too much of their attention and too much money being diverted to Formula One. (Blasphemy, I know.. shall I go on?) Oh, I shall.. why does it continue?? LOOK IN THE MIRROR PEOPLE. As long as you continue to let them do it, and don't make one helluva stink, it will continue. Also, all this "they have waiting lists" they don't care about you stuff will end, either by their own hand, or by the hand of whomever takes control of them. What are the words.. Oh Yeah "Voluntarily, or INVOLUNTARILY" ;) If it were my 550 (and Dave know's I'd join him on a trip to NJ!) I'd have the entire management of FNA either dealing with "it" or with "me". No apologies. As to the guy who said "BMW apparently now recommending owners not rev the engine at rest" I do hope I'm not the first to tell you this, but revving ANY engine "at rest" is a sure way to shorten it's life dramatically. Combine that with a lubrication circuit contamination problem and you will have lots of "BOOM!". | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 403 Registered: 11-2002 |
Faisal, Dave and Whart, Good point and yes that software is probably why modern Ferraris are heaps better built and reliable than the older models. But let me explain one thing. I used to be an engineer working in a design team and how ALL designs start is with the request for something and then a bit of brain storming and then the design priority list is created. This for the F360 would be something like: 1. Must be a replacement for the F355. 2. Must raise the performance over the F355. 3. Must look like a Ferrari, etc. 4. Must meet these performance figures ... 5. Must improve build quality over the F355. 6. Must be able to cover x miles per year, etc. While the Toyota Corolla list would be: 1. Must uphold Toyotas excellent reliability reputation. 2. Must meet new emission requirements. 3. Must replace the last Toyota Corolla. 4. Must reduce manufacturing costs, etc. Thus when the designers get started at Toyota their focus is reliability and thus they are conservative with their designs, etc. as that reliability is REALLY, REALLY important to Toyota. Now with Ferrari if the new model is not faster than the old model then the magazines will scold them and they will have trouble selling them ... reliability is not an issue. This is the cause of the problem and why small volume manufacturers vehicles do not fit in with the normal manufacturers criteria, etc. BTW: Yes the OEM manufacturers will make millions of parts, etc. but not very many of Ferrari specific ones ... otherwise we would all go and buy GM ball joints for our F550 front suspension. The other thing is that when you design something you select the product from the OEM catalogue ... Toyota would select conservatively and Ferrari would select the lighest and best performing ... again this is where the problem is. BTW: Those engine mounts failed not because the OEM manufacture made a mistake but MORE likely that Ferrari have used them incorrectly, ie. they are putting more load through them than they were designed for, etc. Think about it, like I said I worked in a design office that made production equipment and when we designed new products that were intended to replace the old range, we sweated over our decisions and used large factors of safety and analysed costs carefully, etc. BUT when we did one offs we did not because it did not matter so much ... ie. if it failed we would just make something to replace it ... a little stronger. Pete | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 65 Registered: 3-2003 |
PSK, not quite. Design software and prototype testing is extremely thorough in putting parts and systems through a battery of tests that flesh out these faults before production. I know Ferrari has this software. I asked about it two years ago when I was there. And they often use OEMs who do make parts in the millions, so the testing regimen for those parts is not scaled down. Neither should their warranty coverage be. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 402 Registered: 11-2002 |
Whart and Dave,
That is not what I said. I agree they SHOULD stand behind their product but they probably won't ... but hopefully I am wrong. I also pointed out that quality is not as important to Italians as Japanese and Germans, etc. and will never be unless we remove the Italian from the Italians , which I would rather not do. Thus I think you are missing what I am trying to say. Italian products are beautiful and lovely and very involving BUT quality and reliability is about the 5'th thing down on their design list. A Japanese designer has reliability and quality as their first thing ... this makes a HUGE difference to the end product. The other thing is that Ferrari only make about 1/1000th of the cars that Honda make and thus have a lot smaller budget for design/development and testing thus many of the components on the final car have had very little testing ... and thus they fail. Thus the buyers are the first to really test these things out. Honda on the other hand will have destroyed 100s of cars in months long tests all over the world and will know the cars weaknesses before it ever gets into serious production. You are buying a limited production car and thus this is part of the price you pay. Thus record the problems and try and get Ferrari to replace them BUT if you want Ferrari to keep making interesting advanced cars, you have to expect these issues. If you want them to make old fashioned cars (like Rolls Royce who make limited production cars too, but change a component about once every 5 years  ) and to ever so slowly introduce changes then you will not have these issues but the cars will be boring and the market will reduce. Think of how many changes they made to the F355 engine (inlet manifold, etc.) over a short production run and very small volume ... this is because they got it wrong and thus changed it a couple of times ... and then forgot about a lot of that as they designed the F360 and we start over again. Honda and Toyota on the other hand build basically the same car with minor face lifts for something like 10 years and thus by the time they make their 5 million'ith one they have it pretty sussed ... but even they cock up. Thus Ferrari have it a lot harder than most others because of the small and short production runs ... and you pay the huge dollars not for an error free car but an exotic car. Yes noting the issues will help but only 75% of the existing car will probably get used in the 550 replacement anyway ... as if they do not change enough we, the buyers and enthusiasts, are not happy. Again if you expect maintenance free Ferraris you have not read the history and what they are ... which is a small company making very small production runs of extremely expensive cars ... they are NOT FIAT (who should make cars as reliable as any Japanese manufacturer) but a small cottege industry/firm. Maserati will struggle to support the 4 year waranty and my guess is that there will be enormous amount of fine print ... just like Alfa Romeos 5 or 10 year (can't remember) or even life time rust guarantee which really is a joke [BTW: This comment is just my opinion, and I have never read the fine print on an Alfa Romeo rust guarantee ...] Pete | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 991 Registered: 12-2001 |
Excellent post, Doody. The advantage, as you point out, to aggregating this stuff independently (perhaps, like an anecodotal feedback forum by model) is that you can spot trends. We have already noted other 550 and 456 maladies in earlier threads. What people do with the info is up to them. I learned that the wheels on my 550b were not the only ones that leaked only by talking to another 550b owner; as a result, FNA was receptive to replacing all 4 wheels without negotiation. The only involvement the dealer had was picking up the car and installing the wheels when they arrived from FNA. I disagree with those of you who think that just because the car is Italian, or exotic, or expensive, that the manufacturer doesn't have to stand behind it. The only way to know of these problems is to discuss them on a forum, like this one, because the manufacturer won't seek you out until it absolutely has to(granted, some may be better than others). In the case of a recent Mercedes lemon (that they wound up eating), management level/field personnel expressed that level of "professional concern" that not so subtly lets you know you are being handled. An engineer i talked to there admitted that they knew about the the software problems at the time the cars were shipped. So, as i said the last time, Dave, let's see how FNA handle it. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1351 Registered: 1-2002 |
Tony, good points. I expect nothing from FNA, but you never know... I will use what leverage I have... Ironically, my M3 is from 1997: a lowly 240 hp, no issues. You are right: the new ones, made in a several-month period last year & early this year, have faulty parts/bearings, and crap out when revved high. HOWEVER, guess what? BMW just gave ALL new M3 owners an extension of their warranty for motor issues to 6 years/100,000 miles. And do you know why? Because of the internet. Enough owners were copmmunicating worldwide about this problem, that BMW realized it could not keep it bottled up with its typical layer of Clintonian denial. Kind of like Doody said... | ||
| Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member Username: Fuiszt Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ferrari certainly knows about any systematic failures with their cars-doesn't your dealer have your cars vin etc when serviced? They use that info to make the newer ones better. I'm pretty sure though you will have no real recourse against Ferrari for failures after the 2 yrs are up, unless you are holding stradale, enzo orders etc. In that case they might want to keep you happy. Kia wants you to be happy regardless-because little kids don't draw Kias on their notebooks they have to try harder. Its not just Ferrari's-my brother's 911 dropped a valve at 10K miles and needed a new engine. Your only revenge will be watching Maserati eat huge bills when the cars get into the 3rd year of being used. How many new 300 bhp M3s have needed new engines. BMW apparently now recommending owners not rev the engine at rest . | ||
| djmonk (Davem)
Junior Member Username: Davem Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2002 |
I believe Maserati had to offer a better warranty after thier last foray here in the 80's. Not sure it's working!? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 401 Registered: 11-2002 |
Exactly sell the car and never buy a Ferrari again. We are not putting lipstick on a pig, Ferraris are performance vehicles that spend almost every second day in the garage (exageration) ... like a race car. Thus if you don't want that replace the vehicle with another marque. This is why Ferraris either get sold with very short ownership or hardly ever used ... as most owners struggle to keep up with the maintenance, or once they are over the 'I own a Ferrari' excitement then realise that their Toyota Corolla is easier to drive to the local shop and back ... only die hard blinkered owners stick with the Italian cars ... or buy another reliable car as backup. So yes this is sh!t, but common issues with many marques not just Italian (you should work in a dealership and you would be surprised ... they all have their problems and crumpy owners ... soon to be ex-owners. The difference is that some marques care and HAVE service ... others don't), but Ferrari will NOT care that much as this is what they sell. Many of their owners have money boring holes in their pockets and thus would not notice if a new engine was put in every year ... Again buy Italian and take the risk But you are wasting your time discussing this on this site. Best to try and talk it out with FNA and you might find that they will stand by their product and help you out ... then great!, but I would still advice a move to a German marque for you as you sound like you will not be happy at the continual maintenance requirement of your Ferrari. So either buy another new one every 2 years or find a marque that will last forever ... like a Mercedes. Good luck Pete BTW: I own an Alfa Romeo and heater does not work and wiring is a joke ... but it is over 30 years old and thus fair enough. But I have driven Japanese and German cars of the same vintage and heater works and wiring is top notch ... and the cars have 4 times the mileage of my Alfa and their motor is in better condition ... but no where near as much fun to drive I also have been thinking of buying a Ducati to go to work and back ... but must admit with being scared of reliability issues as while they are the top Italian bike they are about as reliable as a 1950's Japanese bike and require MUCH more maintenance ... thus one of the latest BMWs might be a better bet ... or a Honda. ps: Excellent point Doody:
This is where it sits. Do FNA care or not?. In the end if FNA do something about it that is great, but Italians will never, ever, no matter how hard they try make as reliable and quality product as the Japanese or Germans ... they just couldn't it would be sack-religious. I bet also that Honda spend more testing their cars than Ferrari do on the whole design/development/manufacturing/testing process ... thus you have to give them some slack, and thus buy another marque if you are concerned. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1350 Registered: 1-2002 |
Excellent post, Doody. I will give it thought. Hope others do as well. It sure sounds like many here know of the engine mount problem. The dealer sure didn't... That's why I'm going to FNA on this. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1013 Registered: 11-2001 |
the Maseratis carry a four year warranty. why the delta -vs- Ferrari? they do share buckets of parts bin between the marquees, right? are they manufactured under wildly different auspices? do they use totally different, more mass-market motor mounts and water pumps and sirens and damping actuators and etc. etc.? doody. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1012 Registered: 11-2001 |
in an attempt to focus the discussion a bit.... what's interesting here is to attempt to aggregate information about failures that seem patently inappropriate. that is, find the real systematic "bugs" - and separate them from "•••• that just broke". this would be very helpful to all the Maranello owners. for better or for worse, until only very recently in its life, FNA has never had to deal with a large percentage of their owners of low-production vehicles having any sort of large-scale aggregated data source, like FerrariChat and other such online venues. the Internet, for all its warts and problems, excels at this sort of behavior. clearly the dealer service network has anecdotal aggregation of such data, but i don't know that they're going to share it freely (i know some of you guys are on here - care to share?). what i've seen relative to service on my maranello suggests that FNA knows about a lot of varied problems and FSpA has redesigned parts to address those (eg: the alarm battery/siren unit; the damping system actuators; etc.). but as far as i can tell, they haven't issued recalls per se on many of these things. if even 10% (~100) of the US 550 Maranello owners are here (and they may be! have you ever seen more than even 10 550s in the same place at the same time physically?) and there's substantial data to suggest that certain things (like the engine mounts) are in fact systemic problems, we should use this leverage to ask FNA to look seriously at these problems and consider further how to address them. whether i pay $6995 for a Kia or $245,000 for a 575M, i can absolutely, reasonably expect in the 21st century to get a vehicle of 21st century quality. obviously FSpA understands this and their cars, by virtually all accounts, are in fact improving with each iteration. and FSpA has certainly owned up to various manufacturing and engineering problems with the 550 Maranello and other of their cars, so it's not like they're ignoring us and our requests. honda makes more Accords in a day than FSpA made 550 Maranellos in total. they're going to be "buggier" cars, and we have to expect that. but we should also reasonably expect FNA and FSpA to step up to the plate when the aggregated data suggests they really did screw something up. so: (A) do people believe there really are systemic issues that should be addressed? (B) if so, how do we aggregate such data and (C) what do we do with it? doody. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1349 Registered: 1-2002 |
Done, Faisal. Thanks! Pete, valid points, sort of. I did not baby the car, but I did not abuse it either. And during my M3's warranty, I actually drove it VERY tamely--almost DID baby it! It was only after the warranty expired (coincidentally) that I began tracking it. I know Ferrari has a reputation for quality problems. But come on! A half a year after my warranty expires and things that shoul dlast 100,000 miles on a frikking Geo Prizm all crap out at once? That is unacceptable, regardless of marque. So I reiterate: FNA must know of this time bomb; hence the paltry warranty. I knew of the short warranty when I bought the car. I knew repairs would be needed, and they would be costly. But COME ON! ALL of this crap at 15,000 miles? There is no defense for that, and shame on y'all who are trying to put lipstick on the pig here. | ||
| CHAD STEVENS (Tahoecrs)
New member Username: Tahoecrs Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2002 |
Why cant ferrari make better warrenties? i mean if they made 3yr/36000, would make thier owners happier and more eager to buy new ones. even at the 3/36000, i doubt that a lot would come out of their pockets because most people would hit the 3 years before the milage. Does ferrari not trust their own product enough? they would not have to cover wear and tear items. | ||
| martin j weiner,M.D. (Mw575)
Member Username: Mw575 Post Number: 887 Registered: 5-2001 |
Agree with PSK. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 62 Registered: 3-2003 |
Mine only has 38,952 miles. But it's all original. I know TVRs have a reputation for unreliability, but the two Cerberas I have owned have never ever let me down. There are good cars and bad cars from every manufacturer. Thanks for sharing your perspective on Ferrari ownership. I don't quite agree. And Ferrari has often made good on parts even if they are out of warranty. It all depends on your approach, luck, etc. Dave, email me privately and I will give you the name of an individual who will be able to pull some strings for you. | ||
| Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member Username: Fuiszt Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2002 |
If you can't stand stuff going wrong, sell it before the two years are up. Show me a TVR with 50 thousand miles and its original major parts Faisal. As they say about TVRs, the faster you go, the faster the parts fall off. Early 944s went through engine mounts in 15k miles-mine did-water pumps sometimes leak, etc. My 944 needed a new steering rack at 20 thousand miles too. None of the above was covered by Porsche. If the shop says I need a new master cylinder for my Ferrari I buy one and don't ••••• about it. Its got 47K miles on it. Ferrari's deal with you when you bought it was they would fix whatever went wrong in the first 2 years. What part of that didn't you understand? You know what? More stuff is going to break/fail, not matter what you do-even if you only drive it at 2/10ths. Its a car made to be driven and used like a small plane. Like a plane, the guys who work on it are sticklers, and like a plane, its expensive to run. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 400 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmm, Dave I completely understand your frustration but Tony does have one small good point. That is you bought an Italian made Ferrari. Ferraris or any Italian car have NEVER EVER had a respectable reputation for reliability, so if that is your first concern you should have bought a Porsche. I mean this with the utmost respect, and also would be very upset at having spent that much money, etc. You pay $220,000 for a Ferrari because it is a Ferrari not because it is a high quality and thus inferred reliable car. Italians make wonderful things but their quality is sh!t and always will be as they are more concerned with designing passion into their vehicles than over engineering them like Porsche to make them well built and reliable. Thus the comments they make about old Ferraris regarding build quality is still the same today. After all compare a Ferrari with a Lexus or Porsche and they will come last. Why they are better today than yester-year is simply because the whole car industry has moved forward ... Ferrari too, but they are still down the bottom when it comes to quality/reliability. I expect the usual flames from Ferrari owners, but you have to be mis-informed if you bought your Ferrari expecting Porsche or Toyota type reliability and maintenance free-ness. The other comment I would make is a bit late ... but while something is under warranty you should drive the crap out of it NOT baby it so that things BREAK that are going to break and thus get fixed. Once waranty is up then you can back off if you want to. Thus my advice for anybody who buys a brand new Ferrari (or Ducati for that matter) is to nail the thing for the first couple of years and chuck 50,000ms on her and thus you will have rattled the bugs out. 15,000m is only just run in and yep, you will still be finding Italian manufacturing issues. Thus like you did with the M3 get in and drive your Ferrari ... er, but this advice is too late. Yes FNA should sort this out but considering that Ferrari have a 3 year waiting list and people do not buy Ferrari for reliability they will probably not be interested. Thus sell the car and buy a German product ... Ferrari deserve to loose a customer, but there are plenty more queuing up behind you. Good luck with the next vehicle. Pete | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3786 Registered: 8-2002 |
...even if DES drove it...! | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Junior Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2003 |
Tony, it doesn't matter whether he buys any more Ferraris or not. He is entirely reasonable in expecting a quality product, and satisfactory customer service. Shocks should not fail in 15,000 miles in any car, let alone a performance car. Water pump should last 80,000 miles. Engine mounts should last 150,000 miles. AC system should need a freon top-up every 3-4 years. That's ALL it should need. Rgds, Faisal. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1347 Registered: 1-2002 |
Chris, thank you! And I am already going down that path. No harm done about your previous posts. Tony, pound sand. If you had read ALL of my post, you would have seen it was a lot more than an AC unit. And way too much for 15,000 easy miles.  | ||
| Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member Username: Fuiszt Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2002 |
I only meant that the cost of service (and Dave isn't mentioning the rest of the 15K service) is SMALL compared to what he's already lost in depreciation. Ferrari is unlikely to help you with wear items like shocks. I would imagine motor mount failure is at least partially related to how smooth the clutch is dealt with. I had an experience with a NEW 456 that had inadequate AC. Dealers response to the owner was to lose weight so he might not need it so much. You're not buying a Lexus. If you need an excuse to sell it-go ahead, but don't cry about what is in reality a relativley insignificant problem. FNA doesn't care-you don't sound like you're buying another one. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3778 Registered: 8-2002 |
That's 'cause it's a Ford... i don't know much about Ferraris, but Ford makes crap, no matter how new it is... The whole long line of different american auto makes and models is chock full of crap - trust me, i know first hand...! Dave, sorry to see (again) that you're having trouble... i hope things work out... keep us... "posted"... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lighten up! The guy has a problem and he wants to make it known. I for one go around this sight for information like this. What is wrong with Dave's frustration? | ||
| Christopher Byrne (Scuderia512)
New member Username: Scuderia512 Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2003 |
your sarcasm is not needed stick and dice | ||
| Christopher Byrne (Scuderia512)
New member Username: Scuderia512 Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2003 |
area technical manager | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 493 Registered: 9-2002 |
Tony, No offense - and I *certainly* don't want to create another issue, but how on earth does that help? Dave has legitimate concerns (which affect a number of other FCers, namely all of the 550 owners (many of whom take interest in what Dave and other owners experience and have to say), and deserves legitimate and informative answers and responses. I don't see how yours adds to the thread. Dave - I'd be curious to hear what FNA has to say about the motor mounts and shocks - it seems like this is a persistent problem, as evidenced both on and off the board. --Dan | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 320 Registered: 11-2002 |
Automatic Teller Machine? I think he forgot to put an apostorphe in dealers. | ||
| noel smith (Noel)
Junior Member Username: Noel Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2003 |
what does ATM stand for? | ||
| Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member Username: Fuiszt Post Number: 64 Registered: 10-2002 |
You've lost about $90,000.00 already-2 M3s. Who cares how much it costs to fix your AC. Best thing to do is sell it to me ASAP (or fix it and enjoy it for another 2 years and 15000 miles) My wifes 528 needed a new wiper motor at 44,000 miles...ridiculous! My brand new Ford's DVD player doesn't work...outrageous! | ||
| Christopher Byrne (Scuderia512)
New member Username: Scuderia512 Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dave, I suggest you contact FNA directly or speak directly to your dealers ATM concerning your problems. My apologies for seeming more understanding before | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1345 Registered: 1-2002 |
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:46 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I have been very pleased up until now with my 550's reliability. I bought it new in July of 2000...therefore, FNA's "stellar" 2 year warranty expired in July of last year. However, all was well. Now, the car is in for its 15,000 mile service, and I am fuming. Why? Well, because of the following: -one front shock is leaking, requiring replacement of both (I noticed this a few days before the car went in) -A/C evaporator is dying, requiring replacement (I had noticed some A/C degradation) -2 front engine mounts are shot (2 rear ones are OK) -water pump is showing signs of some coolant leakage; I have chosen to replace the pump itself, and not the intact housing All of these maladies I have verified myself; they are not dealer "revenue enhancement". And I gotta tell you, FNA, if you're reading this, that it is INEXCUSABLE--absolutely INEXCUSABLE!!!-- to have these problems in a car less than 3 years old with 15,000 miles. I do not abuse the car. I have never hit the rev limiter (why bother??). I do not hit huge potholes. When I track the car (3 or 4 times a year), I drive it at 7/10ths, and not 10/10ths. All service intervals have been followed to the letter. This is INEXCUSABLE in a $220,000+ car!!!! And so is your pathetic warranty. No wonder you keep it at 2 years, 'cause the car freakin' FALLS APART shortly thereafter!!! And yet, I have a 1997 M3, with nearly 56,000 miles, that I track ALL the time, and drive the crap out of, that has NEVER had ANY of these problems.    |