| Author | Message | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim Thanks again for your help. I hope my readers will understand this wonderful machine a little better! http://www.ultimatecarpage.com | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1432 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter One more interesting point. The LeMans regulations that were changed regarding windshields (Reg J) (For which the J-Cars/MK-IV's were named) was important because it allowed narrower whindshields not lower ones. The narrower windshields on the P3 and the MK-IV lowered drag by reducing frontal area. The top speed jumped almost 20 MPH from the wide windshield MKII to the narrrow windshield MK-IV. Best Jim | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 732 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well, I have been trying to contact them many times, also with submissions, and don't get ANY response from them... :-( Also, not trying to rip off anybody, I would even gladly take over barchetta if only they would respond... Jack | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1549 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Wouter/Jack: I think it might be wise if you continued this discussion privately.<< I was thinking the same thing myself...but was holding my tongue... being in the middle of having some of my ideas and work ripped off at the moment...without resolution yet taking others hard work will almost always result in ruffled feathers when done without permission or consent. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1711 Registered: 8-2002 |
Wouter/Jack: I think it might be wise if you continued this discussion privately. | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim I'll change those mistakes before I'll make the main page news announcement. Again thanks for your help. I just noticed that the Mk IV needs to be added as well ;) | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 728 Registered: 4-2003 |
and would the various people that runs sub-registers and read this make their information available for it? Jack | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1427 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter Nice still a few minor points. The only parts of the P4 that are fiberglass are the doors the rest is aluminum. The P4's were not close behind in 67 the MK-IV finished many miles ahead of the nearest P4. Best Jim | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 727 Registered: 4-2003 |
Looking at the practical side, are there legal implications with taking the barchetta data as a starting point? Would "pour" it into a different format of course. Any advice would be appreciated. Jack | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2003 |
to get back to the subject at hand .. I changed the write-up to Jim's suggestions and I have added the 18 shots enjoy ... http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=1680 | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jack, When I was in Paris for the Tour Auto I talked to Andrew Menasce about doing something similar. Although I am busy with my own publication, I would be glad to help out. Many of the 25000 shots in my library are of Ferraris and of all makes Ferrari is the one I know the most about. So if you are up to doing something, count me in. If you are looking for a spot to host it, I'd be happy to share some room on my server. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 725 Registered: 4-2003 |
I would gladly host a new & better version of the register but can't do it all alone. Any interest to set this up? Jack | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1412 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter I agree. Pushing photo software seems to be what it's now about. Best Jim | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2003 |
Thanks for the pointers Jim. It'll be changed when the database updated and the images are added. Due to the nature of my publication it is really hard to find time to thoroughly research the more difficult cars like 0844 here. Good information like an auction catalogue or a good magazine article on specific cars is what I mostly rely on. There was no way I could feature the 250 GT Lusso Competizione last week, without the Bonhams catalogue. On Barchetta. From what I heard from a former contributor it seems that the owner has lost his interest, which is most evident by the sale of his entire collection, except for his infamous 250 TR. Their database remains a pretty good guide to identify specific cars, but it has not been updated in years. Some of the photographers contributing are really good though, the recent coverages of the Tour Auto and Spa Ferrari days are quite impressive. Too bad they are pictures only. It's a shame such a potentially great site going to waste with the little attention paid to it and the pushing of his product. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1411 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Well said! Best Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1541 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wouter, nice article, might I suggest however, that you get 2 special guys here to review your historical data and info. As Mr. G mentions Barchettas info was compiled with what they had at the time (I suppose), however it's accuracy is a little on the thin side in some instances. As we've moved into the future more accurate data in certian instances has come to light and really should, for future generations be sorted thru and corrected. My take on much of this old info is that the writers tended to leave one small caveat out of their writing..and that was...."as far as we know at this time or have been able to find out or piece together"...and by leaving out that caveat, it's tended to skew certian perceptions as to how fragmented and in many instances secretive the real stories are. It would do a worthy service to all if the facts about how fragmented and difficult it actually is to piece history back together is decades after the fact. Regards, JRV | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1409 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter Unfortuneatly your web page has a few mistakes. 0844 is not fitted with P4 body work. It's fitted with P3 body work that Symbolic aquired from David Piper and the nose is likely non standard. (In the archives there's a post on that) There are many subtle differences between P4 and P3 body work and in the archives I go into some of them. The Mk-IV's didn't run at Daytona. The only races they entered they won and the two that DNF'ed crashed out. Read all the archives and then fire away. Best Jim | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1408 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter If you read all the arcives on my P4 you'll get an answer to your question. BTW a lot of Barchetta's info on many cars is wrong. JRV I think it's more than that. The FI and the 3 valve heads made more power and the factory wanted to keep that for themselves. Best Jim | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2003 |
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=1680 that's what I got .. the images (18 high res ones) will be added later and the write-up still needs a spell/grammar check .. if you see any blatant mistakes please point them out thanks for your help in this matter | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim How much of your 0846 is still original? From what I read on barchetta, it was destroyed beyond repair and the remaining parts used by Piper for 0900. JRV To make the 412Ps easier to maintain by private teams, Ferrari replaced the Lucas fuel injection with carbs. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1534 Registered: 11-2002 |
Those are definately Webers. Good photo so it's easy to tell. Look at the accelerator pump cans on the sides..tan colored in the pic. I thought the 412's used the Lucas? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1406 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter After checking I also believe the 3 valve heads were kept for the factory P4's and the 2 valve heads stayed on the customer 412P's Best Jim | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 461 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hahaha,
Hmmm, when I used to read these mags mistakes were very frequent, and big ones ... thus I would not take this or any magazine as the Bible of classic car knowledge. Personally I think this is disappointing as they are trying to be that, but as there are humans involved they don't always get it right and thus end up confusing. Thus I would take what C&SC said as wrong and talk to an expert  Pete ps: Still read C&SC ... but always question | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1394 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter Yes the 350 Can Am were bored out P4 engines. An interesting point is that the only P4 engines that haven't been bored out, so far as I know,and remain in their original P4 form are mine, the one in Davids 9000, and the one in Lawrances' 0854. As for 0850 so far as I know that is in 412 configuration. I suspect they have displacement wrong but it does have webbers not injection and may not have the 3 valve P4 heads. (Others?) Best Jim | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jim These prototype racers are without a doubt the most complicated Ferraris to figure out. On the CanAm part, wasn't the 350 derived from one of the P4s? Do you know anything about the engine in 0850? I really hope I can figure this out, it would be a real shame to not being able to use the great images I got of the car. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1393 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter If you search you'll find a lot of info on P4's and P3's including info on my P3/4 0846. Part of the problem is that the engine you show was also raced as a cam am car which may have involved boring it out to 4.2 350 Can Am specs. The engine you show has Webbers. Note the humped up lower center section vrs the cut down section in my car. The P4 has curved trumpets as well. Read all the posts and study the photos and I think you will agree that there are very few people who really know these cars. Best Jim  | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2003 |
Tom The engines compared are the P4 engine and that unique flathead engine. Interesting to read about, but still not quite what I'm looking for. What amazes me that, after collecting Motorsports, Cavallinos and Classic and Sportscars for many years, there is so little written about these cars in magazines. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3714 Registered: 9-2001 |
this one dicusses the engine in comparison to another one http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/250861.html | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3713 Registered: 9-2001 |
here is a good thread with links to another http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/165223.html | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2003 |
There has however been very little to no discussion on the engine. Most discussions have been about various aspects of the bodywork and the general history of the cars. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 3709 Registered: 9-2001 |
check the archives - there has been alot of discussion on this topic | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2003 |
Here is a shot of 0844's engine at last months Spa Ferrari Days.  | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2003 |
From what Andrew told me, there are quite a few Ferrari experts on these forums. For a feature on my site, I'm currently researching the P3 mentioned in the title. What I can't seem to figure out is what kind of engine is fitted in this or other 412 Ps. Two of the three P3s were updated in 1967 and fitted with a 3 valve six Weber 3967 cc V12, much like the P4, except for the Webers. Another two cars were constructed by Ferrari using P3 chassis. All of these were called 412 P by the factory but commonly the former are referred to as 330 P3/P4 and the latter as 412 P. Now this doesn't sound complicated at all for a Ferrari fan. What got me confused is the July 2001 article in Classic & Sportscar on 412 P 0850. In the spec-table included the engine is quoted at 3989 cc. Furthermore there are only 24 instead of the 36 valves present. This displacement is seen nowhere else on the Ferrari line-up. Is this a rare mistake by C&SC or is it an unique engine? Now getting back to 0844. Being raced in three shapes, it is now restored in the 412P spec, it raced with in 1967. Does anyone have information on the engine installed, is it a 3 valver, does it have Webers or Lucas fuel injection? From the pictures I took it's hard to tell. Thanks in advance for your help. |