| Author | Message | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Junior Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 218 Registered: 4-2003 |
During the late 80s, people restored cars often because they could flip it for much more. My Dino was such a car. The 2nd last owner bought it during the crazy times and went nuts. Some of the best paint work I've ever seen, and that's over 14 years old! I personally prefer a restored car...especially if the original condition was already in bad shape. In Canada, we have to be realistic about older classics as so many did not have any rust proofing and rust is a real issue. Plus all the suspension bits rot/dry. Having said that, I am not a fair weather owner...drive the cars everyday. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1235 Registered: 11-2002 |
Are the classic car buyers of today that make the trends (the 10-30k classics) looking for "originals" because the disillusion of the famed restoration project? Restoration project buyers have been notoriously known to purchase restoration projects because of their budget constraints. Figuring that the only way to own a car from the marque they love is by buying one cheaply and in appalling conditions. Almost like financing a concours car. As money comes in, it gets dumped into fixing it up. We have all learned that this is not the smartest of things to do now. It's almost a cliche in the classic car world. Peruse your adverts and for sale classifieds and you'll see tons of these half done projects. Is the "original" car the next closest thing to the resto project? A car you can drive around in, but have to figure on spending good money in the future. This of course does not implicate the million dollar car guys, but definitely others of more modest tastes and means. Is this really a new trend, or just a predictable side effect of the growing classic car phenomenon? Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1234 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks Jeff. I just wanted to comment on another thing on your original post. I've noticed many people calling Barrett-Jackson as the classic car sales barometer. I feel that this might have been the case at one point, but with all the recent auctions they have held I think their losing favor with the diehard collector car fan. People get caught up in the circus atmosphere and many get ripped off in my opinion. The days of the educated buyer seem to be more and more distant. More of emotion buyers in their auctions. Unrealistic sellers and suckers for buyers. Of course, this is a gross generalization. I do think that Barrett-Jackson is not really where the pulse of the classic car world is. I think it happens mostly with the private party sales that happen day in and day out with only the marque enthusiasts hearing about the transactions "through the grapevine". Cheers | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 219 Registered: 5-2003 |
Taek.. I wouild never laugh at your Mitsubishi. I spent way too much money and time once restoring a spitfire. Once you love em it's hard to not want to amke them perfect. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1229 Registered: 11-2002 |
Glad this thread is back on track. It's definitely the type of thing I love to blabber about. Well, it puts enthusiasts in a bit of a quandry. On the one hand, a car that has been thoroughly enjoyed for 30+ years with adequate mileage per year will no doubt be due for a serious rebuild or even restoration. What to do? Even my Corvette which is about 5 years old is missing paint on the front bumper due to stone chips. Other fit and finish parts are also in poor shape. Not because of abuse, but because of quality in materials and regular use. I recently "restored" a 1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse (yeah, yeah, stop laughing) and spent more on the work than what the car was worth new. I had the thing taken apart and every nut and bolt was sorted to make it better than the way it left the factory. I had an emotional attachment to the car and it was definitely worth it for me. The emotional satisfaction of seeing and driving the thing is something I can't begin to describe! I'm actually shipping the car to Boston where it will be garaged until my dad takes it to Asia, where it will spend most if not the rest of its days. It almost seems like to have an "original" car you have to baby it to the point of missing the point in having some of these wonderful machines. My personal opinion is drive it like it was meant to. Fix what needs to be fixed and enjoy it for as long as you have the privilege to own it. If the condition of the car calls for a full restoration, then so be it. I don't think it should detract from value. If anything it shows great enthusiasm from the owner which in my book makes it worth more. As for the overkill restorations, I'd rather see someone overdo it than underdo it. Especially if they are to be seen behind the wheel! I guess this is kind of obvious since restoring an Eclipse is probably what most on this board would put as one of the top 10 dumbest things one has done. Originality purists are definitely popping out from everywhere now that having a "dirty" car is not a bad thing. Nevertheless, people who own these machines, in my experience, do have their threshold for "the way the factory made it". Cheers | ||
| John Ashburne (Jashburne)
New member Username: Jashburne Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2002 |
One of the coolest cars I've ever seen was Sandy McNeil's 250GTO this past winter at KTR Engineering in Ayer, MA. It's paint, interior and appearance is the way it was when it was retired from being raced in the 60's by the likes of John Surtees et al. Right down to the chicken wire covering the grill opening in the nose! You could really imagine seeing it at Sebring waiting for the start. And this is no museum piece either. The car is maintained mechanically and raced in vintage racing events such as last Fall's Vintage Festival at Lime Rock. I'm not opining on whether this particular 250GTO is more valuable than any other that may be fully restored. I've seen several and it sure was special to see this one. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2021 Registered: 8-2002 |
By the way, when I made this statement, "I personally think something is lost when a car in the second category is taken apart and given a complete "restoration" unecessarily..." I'm only stating my personal opinion which I know means diddly squat to everyone else. I'm not a concours judge, I'm not an expert, I'm not even an owner. I'm just a guy who loves these old cars and happens to have an opinion. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 213 Registered: 5-2003 |
l wayne.. well stated. Thats the question the judges have to face. I like to think that they will have to have a different scoring for cars like the P3 and, say, a well kept 330. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 212 Registered: 5-2003 |
I looked back and need to apologise to the board for letting one ••••••• drag me into a shouting match. This is a consturctive thread and I enjoy the banter. I tried twice to nbot let him get to me but I failed. Sorry to ROb and the rest. after all of the great input I have gotten from the crash posts and the thread about AA at the universtiy of Michigan I am pleased to see that we can talk about more than just cars here. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2019 Registered: 8-2002 |
I think the bottom line is that some cars are in need of a complete restoration and some have nice patina but are in good shape cosmetically and only require some "mechanical refreshening" to keep them road worthy. I personally think something is lost when a car in the second category is taken apart and given a complete "restoration" unecessarily, HOWEVER, whatever an owner decides to do with his/her car is really no one's business but their own. Let's say, for example, that immediately following Daytona in 1967, 330 P3/4 s/n 0846 was covered up and put away in some warehouse where it remained until being discovered last year. Mr. Glickenhaus has the good fortune to be able to buy the car, exactly as it was driven at Daytona. Does he strip it down and completely "restore" it? No, I would guess that he would do what it took to make it safe to drive but try to keep as much of the original material (paint, etc.) in tact as was possible. Yes, of course it wouldn't be 100% original, but it would be a lot closer to original than if he had decided to tear it down bolt by bolt and bring it back to "as new" condition. (Of course the big flaw in this example is that, by the time of Daytona in 1967, 0846 was already "unoriginal" but I think you all get my point.) | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 211 Registered: 5-2003 |
Agreed arlie. what I said before in this thread was that the trend is not towards keeping everything original.. but the main structure. Paint, panels, interior, tools and labels and Chassis. This months Forza has a great write up about it. These are the areas that the concours judges feel have been over done by the shops. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1321 Registered: 5-2002 |
Meanwhile back on the subject of original cars. I looked at a website where a guy was restoring his Lamborghini Miura and apparently they are major rust buckets. I think that the GT-40s also had similar corrosion problems due to the enclosed boxy substructures. (James could comment on that. And didn't James mention that the Lola was a real corrosion nightmare?) Take a hi-po ride in an "all original" car and you might end up with an "all original" disaster. Case in point: A friend of mine drove his hot rod '57 Chevy for many years. One day we were pushing it in his back yard and the brake lines blew out when we pushed on the brake pedal. The lines had been rusting for years, and finally gave way. What would have happened if we had been flying down the highway? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2018 Registered: 8-2002 |
What started off as an interesting thread is quickly turning to garbage. Why can't we just disagree like the adults that we are and move on without making it personal? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 209 Registered: 5-2003 |
At this point I am going to let Rob get the info. So far I am the ONLY one that has posted anything here. JRV... put up or shut up. I gave my history and have arranged for the proof from the admin. What about you... you did not answer any of my questions.. Where are your vip clients?.. where did you go to college.. where is your success story? and what tracks have you raced on..? And how did I miss seeing you at Scottsdale.. or West Palm..? whats the matter grease monkey.. don't get to go the events? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2003 |
Also for the third time.. I emailed Rob and told him the whole story with my IP. He will set you straight. AS I said in my email to you directly.. I am sure that you are not man enought to admit it when he gives the answer... but it will be a good laugh | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2003 |
A**hole.. I ask for the 3rd time.. What links?.. and I just sent you an email so you have my address.. and what pics..? BTW.. Just checked your little repair shops home page.. really great customer refrences.. where was Ralph Lauren and the rest..?LOL.. what a hack | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1807 Registered: 11-2002 |
Links, email, IP! and pics still waiting! | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 206 Registered: 5-2003 |
JRV.. try the "don" tactic all you like. It does not work so well with the truth. ROB got the email and will let us know. What would you like me to list? My business is in custom electronics ( custom audio/Video and advanced security systems). And as I said if you are smart enough to click the link on my profile it gives the the email info.. Whats the matter loser? Don't trust ROB? After all.. you did try to rip off this site. But I am sure there's no hard feelings. BTW.. what exactly are you trying to compare? I raced SCCA under my Name Jeffery Wolfe and have had my own business for over 15 years. I have already posted my Mondial's serial number.. so far I am the only one that has posted anything.. Who are your VIP customers? whats the matter loud mouth..? you don't race... you don't have any special background... Oh boy.. you repair cars.. wow. Did you even go to college? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1806 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffery, you're talking in circles ..there is no conversation needed...just your IP #'s a real email addy and a link to your success story! waiting! | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 205 Registered: 5-2003 |
heheheh.. hey motor mouth.. Just sent an email to ROB to verify my history at this site... I love such an easy mark.. first Free repair information and now you get to make a fool of yourself. AS for my links.. I don't claim to be an expert.. YOU DO...ROFL.. Yet you seem to know very little. Who are your VIP customers? and as for an Email... It's right on my profile.. You can read can't you? You just click on the part that says.. To send a message. JRV.. Long ago I learned a very important lesson. I was helping vendors where I was working by sharing what I had learned. One of the older Techs pulled me aside and asked.. "how long did you study to learn what you know?" I told him a few years.. he then said... "all that work.. whats it worth if you give it away?" Nothing is the answer.. I learned and it made me sucessful. But hey... I will keep using the archives and doing research and laughing when the post has your name on it.. Thanks and I will look for your apology after ROb verifies how long I have been on this site. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1803 Registered: 11-2002 |
>> I would be happy to supply My IP address and Rob can verify that I NEVER posted here Under any other name.<< When? no time like the present as they say...and those links sport! and a real email addy while you're in such a supplying mood! ;-) | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 204 Registered: 5-2003 |
ROFL... You are way off sport. I would be happy to supply My IP address and Rob can verify that I NEVER posted here Under any other name. Unlike some I never hide from a fight or a big mouth. Whats the matter little man.. can fight your own battles? Guess your little repair shop isn't that big a deal huh | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1227 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffrey, I read about that Jaguar. Also about the Morse Mk II that raised 52k GRP at auction. As Jim said, to each their own. Do know this. Run through the majority of the Matsuda collection, and you'll see the incredible conditions these cars are in. Keep this in mind. Hard core collectors like restoring because once restored you can always take it for a spin. When you are not sure about chassis integrity and such it makes for a nervous road experience! Also, I feel that one of the reasons that an "original" car is so sought after is because of the difficulty in finding one! Also, the masses dictate the trends a lot of times and collector car guys are finding Elan's and 308s in immaculate condition. But when you get to the 250LM or 250GTO range all cars are pretty much accounted for and under heavy restoration. I'm actually one who is looking for an "original" car. My reasoning is quite different. I want to have a car that has not been mechanically tampered with and an "original" is the best way to find one. Nevertheless, once I get my hands on it I'm probably going to tear it apart and build it, replacing what needs to be replaced and sorting out what needs to be sorted. All in all, I'm going to drive it so originality AND safety are essential. This is an interesting topic, especially since I want to be involved in this sort of stuff. I've always wondered what the best way to go is. From my experience talking to my dad and some of his friends (they collect everything from pre-war Bentleys to micro cars like the Fiat Topolino) there is really no replacement for a concours restoration. Some of the reasoning is that if the restoration is fresh then you know everything is in working order if not better. Another is that it's the best way to ensure that any mechanical flops from previous mechanics etc have been sorted. Almost like a clean slate, as if it's rolled off the factory. Now we are also talking something different when a concours car has been cosmetically kept up for 10 years and the inside is rotting! I'm not an advocate for either. I do think it's entirely a matter of choice. I just hope that people don't start advertising and selling their cars at a premium as "originals" and get away with selling neglected cars. Cheers | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2016 Registered: 8-2002 |
"I love the smell of hot oil and the sound of ticking alum..." Mmmmm... hot oil... ticking aluminum... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1821 Registered: 10-2002 |
I own a car (My Duesenberg) that has won in class at Pebble, is a CCCA National First prize winner, and won in class at Louis Vitton. This all happened before I bought it. That's not why I bought it. I bought it because it is very beautiful and a piece of history. When I brought it back to WWOC we turned it into a car from a trailer Queen. This is what mattered to me. We got every instrument working,got the brakes working, repacked and lubed. Replaced bearings. Fixed the lights. Some people like winning awards. Others like to have cars that work. Each to their own. I really mean that. Make yourself happy. When I drive my MK-IV into the sunrise and see the mist swirl across the fields for a moment I'm back in that Medevil town where they close the roads for 2 days in June and the heavy metal thunder rolls in and shakes the ground. There's no one judging me.Just the the feel of 500ftlbs pushing me back into the seat. When I came back from Goodwood one time my car was so muddy Customs held it up because it had "Too much Foreign Soil" Hosed it down,cleaned it up, checked everything, wiped it down with light oil, and headed back out. I love the smell of hot oil and the sound of ticking alum when I get home and shut down. I won concours with that car too, but have never polished its headers or aligned its screw heads. If a judge were to check the TP heads he'd find they were properly torqued... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1802 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffery, am I to take your rambling as a refusal to update your profile with links??? don't have any links do you? btw: what name were you posting under before last month on what 5-24 when you registered this handle? jrvisking perhaps? knew a guy with issues as deep as yours couldn't stay away for long king! ;-) | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 203 Registered: 5-2003 |
JRv... not to worry I am certain that none of them have ever considered hiring you LOL. I am also certian that none of them really know you or your little repair shop exist. But Hey... we can be pals... I'll let you change the oil on my cars.... just don't spill any on the paint. AS I have said many times in the past... say what you want.. every time you post a helpful answer that saves me time or money I will take it and know that I got one over on a texas loud mouth. So please.. ramble on and bless us with your many years of somewhat accurate information. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1801 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffery, how about updateing your profile with some links to your Triumphs & Succes's in life and especially the automotive world. and until one of those you mentioned Hires Me...they're not my boss, or even anyone I listen too. I pick my hero's and clients carefully! ;-) you get an email and letter off to your heros about the next award winnng candidate here? if not, get to it, ....and make that Mustard No Mayo...O-Rings..not Fries...chop chop...;-) | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 202 Registered: 5-2003 |
Taek... My point was made when over a million dollars was paid for a very original Jag at Montery. I am sure that Jrv's little shop and his attitiude will change when the Concours trend moves onward this season. Then again... he's so much more inportant than the Tech writer and master Ferrari mech that writes for FORZA. I am sure they offered JRV the job first but he was too busy. ROFL. I will have to call and ask Rodger Bell... and Martin Buckley how they feel knowing they disagree with such a market and concours expert as JRV> ROFL.. just another loud mouth from Texas. Tell. us JR.. how many events did you judge last year? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1800 Registered: 11-2002 |
>> I guess it's easier to snipe at me than to try to address the men that are the authority.<< You still don't get it do you!!! lol. THE AUTHORITIES are not the rag writers sitting behind typewriters pumping out muck guys like you then run around mouthing about, The Authorities are the guys that own the cars and pay the bills!!! The owners dictate the level of quality fit and finish they want for their bucks....and the color and anything else. When you start paying the bills (ha ha ha) for significant cars to be restored you can make the rules, until then you're just a chat room motor mouth!!! ;-) btw: jeffery, don't forget to notify those 'aithorities' you've been following about Gregs Ferrari, it definately should win significant praise for it's originality from 'the authorities' and I vote several National Wins are in order! | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1226 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffrey, A good point, but then how would we know what to keep "original" and what to replace? Water pumps, belts, fuel lines, etc should be replaced. Aside from the obvious spark plugs, clutches, etc. So I guess then the argument would be that it's OK to replace OEM with OEM on wear and tear items and retain the word "original" as a description of the car. Nevertheless, for a 30-40+ year car just about everything is worn and torn. I think the point adheres a little closer to the cars we won't see on the road too much. ie. Jaguar D-Type and the like. But the road cars are meant to be driven. And with driving comes wear and tear. There is a dangerous line when an owner refuses to replace things because of originality. You are right that there is a trend in the "original" car in the classic car circuits. Keep in mind that the heavy hitters with the big collections are picking the full on heavy restorations as the pick of the bunch. The thinking is along the lines of purchasing a new 40 year old car. They can drive it and it'll suffer it's dings here and there and those too will become part of the car's history. I think that this trend is more brought on by the public than by the players. It's good to see a 250GTO with some black exhaust marks on the tips of it's pipes, and some dirt here and there from the rigors of racing. It's also due to the fact that some cars have provenance so deep that every crease and dent in the bodywork is a part of history and tells a good story. You reach a certain level where a true car nut won't give a rat's ass if there are dead mosquitos splattered on the bumper. The cars speak for themselves. Remember, restorations, wrecks, storage, and all that are still reflected on a car's records (if the car is worth having records that is). Cheers | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2003 |
You can't confuse the word Original. It means just that. What was there from the beginning. New paint can not be Original. New panels can not be original. The can be OEM.. but that not the same. A copy of a knock off hammer can be exact but it is not original. JRV... I say one more time. Don't blame me for discussing this topic. Why don't you have any words for the EXPERTS that are helping this concept take off. I guess it's easier to snipe at me than to try to address the men that are the authority. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1798 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>RESTORATION is one of the most abused word in the english language.<< I think the mis-use of the word "original" is taking over. ;-) Greg, I'll find and post the list of items Irecently sent to MattL for his "58" Ferrari that had been sitting for 20 yrs. Jefferey, you're quite the motor mouth running expert, everything from restorations, definitions to drugs and free speech...LOL. | ||
| steve wilcox (Stevew)
New member Username: Stevew Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2002 |
If a car is restored properly,you should not be able to tell it from original. RESTORATION is one of the most abused word in the english language. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 195 Registered: 5-2003 |
Taek... I am not fighting a battle here. You are correct about a newer classic. We are actually discussing the new thoughts on concours. At this time the thinking is moving towards this: IF 2 Lusso's were entered and one was a restored previous 100 point show car with the owner having found all the right labels and tools and made the car look perfect and the other was Original in all respects ( tools, labels, paint, interior) the older car would most prob win. The thinking is that anyone can restore a car> Most owners pay outragous rates to have a shop do it and just bring the car to show. On the other hand.. for a car to have been kept up for 30 years and still have the original goodies is rare. AS long as it is clean it seems to have more appeal. I love this thinking. YOu get to see history as it was... not how someone in a shop makes it. Perfection is not reality.Once again.. this is not my Idea... this is reported in this months FORZA... in Classic car... in Auto week.. and so on and so on. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 194 Registered: 5-2003 |
And original does not mean "unsafe". We are not talking about drving a car with bent wheels or leaking fuel lines. It means a car that has not been "corrected" in apperance. If the welds were sloppy from the factory they should stay that way... thats history. If you can see the marks from the panel beaters hammer.. thats history also. This is not a personal fight for me. I am only reporting what is already decided and going on in the collectors world. These are the opinons of the real experts. Not shop owners. These people are the Judges and the writers that set the trends. From what we have all read most are smart enough to know that a car like the P needed a complete restore to be in a condition to be used. No one would question that. But, say, a Lusso that just has faded paint and a needs rings would get more points under the up and coming rules if it was just buffed out and repaired than a pretty but useless older 100 point show car. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1219 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffrey, New cars become old cars. Take this scenario. Someone purchases a 456 which has known window problems. They barely drive it and thirty or forty years later it only has 20k miles on it and the guy wants to sell. If I were the buyer, I'd want it fixed. I do think that there is a lot of value in a "fresh" classic that has not run the gamut in restorations. Nevertheless, as long as you don't see HRE rims in a 250 Lusso you're alright. Nothing wrong with having new materials put in. Maybe Borranis that are from a newer car. Now it gets tricky when you talk about suspension bits and all. A concours nut would take them out and have them recomissioned etc. I would probably do what I could to keep in original, but I don't think there's anything wrong with going with newer materials as long as they are period authentic. Cheers | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 193 Registered: 5-2003 |
Greg.. hate to disagree here is the proof: "The patina of your car perfectly expresses how full of baloney the pendulum swingers are, unless you win Prestigous Awards at National shows for 'originality'. I find this thread amusing as it sounds like a precursor for some of the judges buddies winning awards for unrestored cars. In which case I think Gregs car should be National Champion ! Cars are like people, pretty and full of energy when young and wrinkled, tired & ugly when old. Having restored dozens of cars personally I can tell you first hand about what 'original' quality was all about, it was no different then than reading about Autoweek ripping a car for fit & finish today. Fit and finish was marginal when new and terrible as it aged. No one would pay to get their car back with a sagging door and windows that won't roll up." Does that sound like he is just calling for "safety" repairs?. Nope. And as I pointed out... right now lots of REAL collectors are looking for "original" condition cars for the upcoming shows. As John pointed out and as I saw first hand at Barett Jackson in Scottsdale... BIG money is being paid for "original". | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 146 Registered: 2-2002 |
Seems like there is a spectrum of completely original (also unsafe to drive) on one side and over-restored on the other end. From JRV's posts I am taking away that I need to check some safety items. It would be good to get a more complete list of items that should be refreshed just for drivability. How about tie rod ends? suspension bushings? I don't see JRV lobbying for the over restored car, but a car that is closer to "originality" in safety and function for drivability. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 188 Registered: 5-2003 |
"Those who are trying to change the definition of the word 'orignal' for the rest of the people evidently have motives and agendas".. Right .. like shop owners that want to screw customers out of cash for over priced restoration. "very likely self serving." You are correct. And get a clue... This is not my fight or concept.. this is in every major auto mag and from the lips of Judges. I have no motives.. My Ferrari's will never be of a model thats "vintage". Only a jerk that worries about loss of restoration income would be so set against the change. JVR.. why bash me when several here seem to agree with the new thinking? Then again " you're not the Almighty and you don't define the rules or speak for the world. " thats true for you also motor mouth. I guess you with, your little repair shop, are so much smarter than the experts and the writers. This thread was doing fine without your nasty input. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1814 Registered: 10-2002 |
When discussing comp cars a lot of this is like argueing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. These cars were built, dissambled, part swapped, pit modified, crashed, rebuilt, remodified and abused over a long time. In addition the ones that William mentioned, those still doing what they were intended to do, are often futher modified. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1794 Registered: 11-2002 |
>> If you correct this then you lose a "snapshot" of how it was then. You lose the history completely. << Jeffery, No you don't, and you're not the Almighty and you don't define the rules or speak for the world. Get over it, you're just a chat list antagonist & diareaha mouth. If you want the definition of 'original' look it up in Websters !!!! Those who are trying to change the definition of the word 'orignal' for the rest of the people evidently have motives and agendas, very likely self serving. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2674 Registered: 2-2001 |
This reminds me of the story of the man speaking about his Grandfather's axe "I changed the blade and I changed the handle but its still my Grandfather's axe"  A lot of vintage racers with $ have replica engines and some even have replica chassis that they use to race while the original stuff stays safe in a garage. Understandable cus where on Earth can you find an original camshaft for a 57 TR or a 1970 512M ? I'd rather see the cars at a race track as concours is not my scene. I'd rather see original cars instead of pristine garage queens any day | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 186 Registered: 5-2003 |
Taek.. you are talking about a new car. We are talking about 30 year old classics that came from the factory with wavy panels and bad paint. If you correct this then you lose a "snapshot" of how it was then. You lose the history completely. The reasons that the judging is changing is based on the opinion that many of the current restorations make the cars more like copies or kits of the original. You cannot improve upon what was then. You can update it but a Lusso with perfect paint and seams is not a real Lusso.. since none came from the factory that way. There are a few UK companies that take older Mk2 Jags and gut them. They add All new Brakes, engines, transmissions and electrics.On the outside it looks like a Mk2.. is it?... none of the historians think so. It's a kit car. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1217 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think we've strayed from the point here, a bit. Usability is key. Jim's P4 is being done the way it should. There will be improvements to the car (starter) to make it more user friendly. Then again he can always go back to original. But all the safety restoration must be performed. As a person who is contemplating restorations I would personally like mine looking brand spanking new. And if the doors came crooked from the factory, I'd want it straightened. I like to think about it this way. If I were to buy a 456 and realize that the door fit is poor and therefore rubbing, I would take it to the dealer IMMEDIATELY. Have it sorted and I'd be on my merry way. I guess you could keep it that way if you want to keep it the way it came out of the factory. Maybe all these 456s with their window problems shouldn't be fixed. There's nothing wrong with investing some money to get the car right. The one thing that DOES sadden me is that a lot of these folks don't drive these beauties after the work is done! Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1793 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffery, tell it Ralph Lauren ! Then I want to see Greg with Prestigous National Trophies!!! otherwise this pendulum swinging is a farce! | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 182 Registered: 5-2003 |
Well JRV.. since you speak from the restorers point of view it is okay to be wrong. YOu keep saying that NO one would pay for bad panel fit and finish that is (badly) like factory original... Yet Classic car just a few months ago wrote about a rare racing JAg that was found. To maintain it's value as an original the owner made sure that no panels were straightened and even the worn leather seats were kept ( aside from some cleaning). In the Collier collection there is a very original 917 with battle damage that gives it a presence it would not have if like new. It is understandable that since you make money from trying to improve on original spec that you would be against this change in show judging. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1791 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Especially since JRV doesn't like the pantina in my engine bay.<< Greg, not true, I love it, seriously. The patina of your car perfectly expresses how full of baloney the pendulum swingers are, unless you win Prestigous Awards at National shows for 'originality'. I find this thread amusing as it sounds like a precursor for some of the judges buddies winning awards for unrestored cars. In which case I think Gregs car should be National Champion ! Cars are like people, pretty and full of energy when young and wrinkled, tired & ugly when old. Having restored dozens of cars personally I can tell you first hand about what 'original' quality was all about, it was no different then than reading about Autoweek ripping a car for fit & finish today. Fit and finish was marginal when new and terrible as it aged. No one would pay to get their car back with a sagging door and windows that won't roll up. So they get restored! And to properly restore and old hand built car it has to be disassembled, cleaned, repaired, even secretly re-engineered and reassembled. Just wiping off dirt and spraying with aromorall is laughable. If it were only that easy. So get over it! If you want a NICE, beautiful, reliable, safe, functional old car, they have to be restored. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 144 Registered: 2-2002 |
here is the carpeting and inside. Stood the test of time better than the engine bay.  | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2003 |
JRV.. don't be dificult. This is not an attack on restorers. Even Forza wrote a long piece in this months issue about a Fchat members car. Original does not mean worn and dirty. The pics show a car that several top line judges would now say just needs to be freshened up for show.Cleaning does not affect how original a car is. If this new way of thinking offends shops that live by restoration.. thats just progress. It seems that most here agree that original is better than over restored except in the case of a rare bird like the P3. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 143 Registered: 2-2002 |
If given a choice between a near original car (which I have) and a frame off $100k restoration car at same price I would probably pick the restored car. I see it as money someone else already spent that hopefully I won't have to somewhere down the line. Especially since JRV doesn't like the pantina in my engine bay.  | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 142 Registered: 2-2002 |
I plan on having the wheels redone and just fixing things as needed. You can see the "original" rust scales on the borrani's.  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2013 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV: "Only items that affect safety for driving, i.e. wiring, tires, seals, brake and fuel lines, wire wheels, etc. will be replaced. Everything else will be cleaned and made operational." "...the most desireable car to me would be one that was made SAFE AND MECHANICALLY FUNCTIONAL while preserving as much of the original material, paint, etc. as possible." | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1790 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well Wayne, how about some comments on the originality of Gregs engine compartment. surely it meets the original criteria several were clammering for. Certianly looks original enough to qualify for some thing, ahy? ;-) | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2012 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, how about some better photos? Either here or maybe in the Showroom section? | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 141 Registered: 2-2002 |
JRV-Thanks for the tip...I will check into the fuel lines. That's the trouble with these old cars is that every 40 years or so you have to replace something and you don't have a computer analyzer to tell you what to do. How was I to know? Hope its not another engine out deal like the 512tr. Anyway, the gas is 2003 vintage, I drive it every week. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1789 Registered: 11-2002 |
Greg, looks like you're also on the brink of an original engine compartment fire with those old original gas lines, unless of course the original gas has turned to tar... ;-) Gotta give you the prize for originality so far though!!...and if the pendulum swings far enough you might take some prestigious national awards!! ;-) | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 140 Registered: 2-2002 |
I like the trend toward originality as my 250 original engine blows some "original" smoke and the restoration is expensive. Unfortunatley the tires (and probably the air in them) are close to being original also.  | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1015 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jeffery, you started me thinking. I have a 31 year old car that has never been restroed as such; I've done a lot of work on it but it's never been disassembled and put back together stem to stern. I've always toyed with the idea of a frame off, but now I'm not so sure I want to do that. My (mostly) original paint really lends an authenticity to the car and it does still show quite well. It's had a lot of mechanical work but it still has a lot of original ancillary parts too where the paint on them is worn and the metal is tarnished or just caked in gunk. So, if I clean/repaint/replace stuff so it becomes showroom new, have I improved my car? More importantly, will I like the results better than what I have now? Or will something be lost? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1785 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeffery, unless a contract is drawn up by lawyers and money put into escrow a body shop could not get away with the '"original lack of quality", no one would pay the bill with panels so wavy you'd get sea sick looking at them !!! | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 168 Registered: 5-2003 |
JRV's point is accurate but kinda extreme. Things like seals and tires and fluids are wear items. But what about paint and build quailty? Newer paints are easier to work with and can capture the color but not the "look". Often they are applied better than the factory.I know that that when I had some work done on my Merak I insisted that they Lead the joints as was original instead of filler. It took me 3 months to find a panel beater that knew how and would do it. Body panels that are undented and paint that is only worn are original. When you do a "frame off" restore you are undoing all that the builder had done so the car is not original as built. Even replating fittings and Chrome will not be the same as it was 40 years ago. It seems that many cars found today that would have been totally restored from the ground up a few years ago are now looked at as in better shape. Panels that would have been removed to inspect and repaint are being left in place and polished. My thoughts are as long as the car has NOT been dis assembled it is as original. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1781 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here's my point. Once the oil has been changed or new tires fitted or a new battery the car is no longer original...period. It may be almost original or sorta kinda original but it's not original. So then the argument becomes whats the best sorta kinda but not really original example...? Who gets to judge the world of sorta kinda????? and is this position self appointed??? by default???? Sorry... it's original in every picky way or it's just a nice used car that may or may not be sorta kinda original. ;-) | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2008 Registered: 8-2002 |
I am a major proponent of originality. Others here have already made statements that express my opnion as well: Bryan: "Only items that affect safety for driving, i.e. wiring, tires, seals, brake and fuel lines, wire wheels, etc. will be replaced. Everything else will be cleaned and made operational." John: "...any car is only original once. Once it has been restored, it can be restored over and over again. The supply of original cars on the other hand is forever shrinking and becoming rarer." There are times when a restoration is necessary, but the most desireable car to me would be one that was made safe and mechanically functional while preserving as much of the original material, paint, etc. as possible. | ||
| John Ashburne (Jashburne)
New member Username: Jashburne Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think that there is a distinction between "mechanically maintained" and restored. Mechanically maintained means that rubber parts and other wear items can be replaced in order to keep the car safe to drive. That falls well short of a "restoration", which essentially creates a car that looks as good and usually better than when it left the factory. For an example of the former, look at the lightweight Jaguar racing E-type that was found, went through a mainly mechanical (I believe) restoration and was sold at Monterey last year for more than $1 million. Still oozing lots of its patina. I would consider this car more "original" than "restored". The reason the pendulum is swinging back to originality is that any car is only original once. Once it has been restored, it can be restored over and over again. Some cars have even been "restored" out of virtually nothing more than a chassis plate and a couple of other odds and ends. The supply of original cars on the other hand is forever shrinking and becoming rarer. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1778 Registered: 11-2002 |
Cars have to be restored to be safe to drive and maintain reliability as "a car". Now of course if one no longer cares "it's a car" and has no intentions of using it as one, then "original" is fine. "Original" is BS anyway on 20-30-40-50 year old cars and so ridiculasly subjective because they started life after a 1000 miles dumping out the original oil and putting in new fresh oil, same with batteries and coolant at some point, and hopefully tires and fuel filters and gas, and brake fluid, etc, etc. Not to mention "THEY'RE JUST CARS" and never where intended or designed to last forever with original everything. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 127 Registered: 8-2002 |
My view is not that the FCA rules themselves have changed so much as the judging attitudes toward patina vs. restoration and what is 'original.' I think if you ask Ed Gilbertson, Gerald Roush and the other 'Preservation of the Ferrari Automobile' folks, they will tell you that originality has always been the primary standard. Case in point is my father's car 0556MD(0446MD) S. II 500 Mondial (1955). It appears now as it did when it was last raced in 1964 - unmolested, unrestored, etc. (See pics and article in Forza earlier this year). We brought it to the FCA National in 1992 as is. The not-so-whispered comments were almost unanimously "what is that piece of •••• doing on the field?" Fast forward to 1997 FCA National where the comments were more in the "wow, how nice to see an original that hasn't been restored to within an inch of its life." Fast forward again to 2000 Concorso Italiano in Reading, PA where guest Sergio Scaglietti commented that, while he was extremely impressed with the amazing craftsmanship of the restorations, he liked seeing 0556 in original condition because it reminded him "of how we did these things" (through his translator). The great reception that Shirley's "refreshed" 500 Mondial Coupe got at Cavallino and Charlie Arnott's largely unrestored Dino received at FCA Sebring this year shows that we've come 180 degrees from 11 years ago. Any Ferrari historian will tell you that "original racing Ferrari" is an oxymoron - Ferrari swapped engines and everything else you can imagine to get cars on the grid in those days. In any case, we will be taking the "Castellotti sat here" approach for our preservation work on 0556. Only items that affect safety for driving, i.e. wiring, tires, seals, brake and fuel lines, wire wheels, etc. will be replaced. Everything else will be cleaned and made operational. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1803 Registered: 10-2002 |
Philip I have been told two things about that Photo. 1. It's somewhere in the Ferrari Factory. 2. It's in a museam in Turin. Either way I think it's right after it won Daytona in 67. Jeffrey Thanks. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2003 |
James... I agree. If the car is past being driven or displayed in it's proper form then a full restore is the only answer. After watching the type of panel beating that you are doing and the ways you are making sure that the correct methods are used to put it abck "like the factory" you deserve much respect. | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 304 Registered: 2-2003 |
James, well said.........I have to ask, the picture you posted, why does it look like that car is IN someone's house? Is it a museum, a drive in "living room" it's cool, just confusing? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1801 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think this is an interesting question and a bit complex. With 20/20 hindsight all of us would have bought old Ferrari race cars right off the track an maintained them but not touch their patina. Sometimes you get lucky and can purchase a car that has been preserved not overly restored. My Mk-IV is like that. It ran in one race,LeMans and was passed on to people who maintained rather than restored it. The dent made when Bruce McLaren threw down his helmet and chased after the tail which had blown off on the Mulsanne is still there. I realize how lucky to be able to own such an unmolested piece of history. My P4 is a different story. Without rehashing it's history (If you search you'll find it) I really had no choice but to do a full restoration. It was no longer safe to drive. The engine was at a point where if I didn't rebuild it it was likely to blow and as it's totally irreplacable I felt I had to do it. I've tried to preserve and use as many original techniques during the restoration and in the case of the motor Alberto and Bob Wallace who were there at the time. (See Vintage sec. Photos on painting) There is a big difference between restorations and those that line up the screw heads in a straight line IMHO miss the point. Best  | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4926 Registered: 5-2001 |
If you are talking about a true collector car like a P4 or P3 like James is restoring, well since there are only 2 or 3 cars it does not matter if restored or original. If you are talking about a 250GTO well, I would prefer the original car but then if you had an owner use thec ar for what it is over the 40 years it will be in need of a restauration. If you are looking at keeping your 308 stock to get better concourse points you are missing out. Do whatever you want with it and not worry. Why deprive yourself odf the joy of driving just to see at BJ Auction the price be a few hundred bucks more. I am sure James will drive his restored baby and have lots of fun with it. It will get used and will not look like fresh from the factory in a few years. All I can say is GREAT! | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1307 Registered: 12-2002 |
I vote for original as well...Sometimes people seem to over-restore an older car and it just makes it look superficial --like it never had a previous life or like it is a brand new reproduction. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1010 Registered: 10-2001 |
Museum cars should be original. But most of us own drivers and I won't sacifice originality for driveability; I think that's stupid. My 30 year old Lotus has an electric fuel pump, electronic ignition, SS headers and exhaust, cassette style water pump...the list goes on. The engine, tranny, interior is all original so it's "soul" is intact. But it also starts when cold, runs great, stays cool in traffic...none of these things would be possible going concourse. Perhaps 30 year old Ferraris are better cars so these concessions don't need to be made? | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5442 Registered: 8-2002 |
I think original. Restorations are nice but there is something about a car that is bone stock original. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2003 |
After talking with Officials and owners, plus the comments in FORZA and other mags, It seems that keeping cars original as possible is the new name of the game. Not just chassis and engine but most all parts right down to saving the original paint if possible. At Barrett Jackson in Scottsdale this year we heard several comments about "original but clean" cars being worth more on the block. This seems to be esp true for vintage race Ferrari's and Porsche's. What do you all think? Would you rather see a concours that featured the cars in original state or do you prefer the Pristine restorations? I believe that seeing an older original but maintained Ferrari would be more pleasing than row upon row of like new restored ones. |