| Author | Message | ||
| RS Biomedical (Rsbiomedical)
New member Username: Rsbiomedical Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2001 |
I have read just about every post on this board since 2001 and havn�t posted much but I have to so please forgive me for being long winded. Prices on all goods are based on perceived value. From Beany Baby Collectors to Faberge Eggs everything has its value. I perceive Ferrari as a symbol of historical automobile excellence, looks, sound, feel, touch and finish lines everything that a passion can be. As previously stated (very well I might add) if you want speed and performance buy a Supra add 25K in modifications and you will own the road, but a Ferrari is more than just speed. I love all cars, but my heart belongs to Ferrari and I don�t have to make excuses to justify my love. Some people like blonds and others like brunettes. The point is if you like blonds or Lambos stick to your perspective group and respect the fact that other people have a mind of their own. My favorite Ferraris are 60�s era and most could never compete on a track with Lamborghini but I will take a 330 GTC over a Diablo, Murci, baby murci or any tractor any day of the week. Lambo�s are bad ass cars but like brunettes they are not my cup of tea. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2030 Registered: 10-2002 |
James Lee I'm dead fuc king serious. Unlike you I have Driven an Enzo. I also own cars that have won Pebble Beach and will be there again in competion this Aug. so I believe I have an idea whether or nor a car is finished to a standard. The moron who complained about the CF weave in the Enzo is a jealous wanker. As for testing an Enzo the American mags Road and Track and car and driver had no prob getting one to test and Road and Tracks time was 0-100-0 in 11.2. Have you ever driven a McLaren F1? Or looked at one closely? The fit and finish on the F1 is way below the Enzo. As for driving the one I drove was very prone to overheating more so than my MK-IV or my Lola T-70 which are ex race cars that I drive on the street. Finally fit and finish interest some but the people who pay 10 million for a GTO or a P4 don't seem too bothered by it. The most valuable cars in the world are pretty rough. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1485 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pete, >>Think of all those saloon car championships, rally wins (in the old days),<< Porsche was very active in rally racing. Everything from rally to enduro rallies (959s tearing through the Sahara!). >>LeMans<< Porsche is still very active in LeMans, although not in the LMP class. As a matter of fact, they compete in everything you mentioned except F1. Hillclimb, they have the Turbos with AWD. I wish I had the source, but I do remember that Porsche is way ahead of everyone as of 2000, as far as overall wins. They've also held 1st place in just about every major race except F1. Pretty impressive, considering Paris-Dakkar is one of those! Cheers | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 700 Registered: 11-2002 |
Taek-Ho and Steve, Regarding the most winning manufacturer. Yep Porsche has won many, many sportscar based race series ... but Alfa Romeo was definitely the most winning manufacturer once, and may still be. Think of all those saloon car championships, rally wins (in the old days), Le Mans, F1, road races, hill climbs, sporscar championships (with the T33) and so on. Porsche don't make a saloon car, so I think they would struggle against Alfa Romeo AND BMW for the most winning manufacturer, and even Ford. As for the best supercar/sportscar: Porsche definitely wins as it goes every day, thus you can drive it more. But that is only looking at one side of the coin, as others have said driver envolvement is a big part too ... that is why the new Porsches are returning to scary turbo power delivery, etc ... and moving away from the car does everything for you, like the 959, which was a big mistake as the car was so competent that my nearly 3 year old daughter could drive it. Who wants that, we want to be scared by the car and feel we have conquered the beast!!, well atleast I want that feeling. Pete | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 672 Registered: 6-2002 |
Looks like another record thread is coming! | ||
| Steve (V10_nut)
Junior Member Username: V10_nut Post Number: 84 Registered: 3-2002 |
Taek-Ho...I stand corrected for not giving Porsche it's deserved racing accolades. For various reasons they have been absent from F1 and top class Lemans events for a few years. I hope they regain their enthusiasm in the future and mix it up with MB, BMW, Audi again. Art...Lamborghini doesn't "just build cars for posers". There are a lot of conservative automotive enthusiasts that own Lamborghini's and appreciate them for what they are. The two Italian companies spend a lot of time and money to create a certain sensory feel when you get behind the wheel of their cars. IMHO that is what separates a Ferrari/Lamborghini from a Porsche or an NSX. In their Italian flair they pay attention to sculpture-like body designs, the smell of the leather and exhaust note. Take a 20 mile drive in a 911 then climb into a Ferrari or Lambo and follow the same route. You just know your driving something special. This (who's best) argument is like debating who the best French impressionist was or saying Beethoven was better than Mozart. Steve | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 556 Registered: 10-2001 |
Here is the problem... Enzo is a GREAT CAR but the 360 coming out in a few years is only going to have 460hp its already obsolete. What are we waiting for? Look at the $250k Murcielago and then Lambo comes out with $150k Gallardo that might be a better car if not very close. I would rather support Lambo's idea of giving the custumer a flagship to dream about (swing up doors and all) and but then, also have a car that is very close that we can all buy. Makes me feel better as a customer. Enzo 1.2 million (because Ferrari made them invite only) 360 $150k but no where close to the specs of the Enzo. What good does that do me ???? I love Ferrari but I want to kick them in the ass for the way they treat their loyal custumers. No more "we don't need you" attitude after Lambo and Viper and MB and Ford brings 500hp to the more expensive 360 460hp that is not even ready yet. The title of this tread, is blood in the water to the sharks that have been watching Ferrari. (sorry photo is small quality poor) Road&Track this month. Gallardo looks good now that I have a referance against the Murcielago.  | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 175 Registered: 9-2002 |
I am not understanding the need of a race history when buying a road car. What does that have to do with anything? I can see if the actual car you have has a winning history but what does it have to do with production cars? Cars should be judged on their own stats, not the companies race history. Try using the race history line when you sell it and see if it brings you more$$. | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 262 Registered: 4-2003 |
I actually really enjoy reading such posts; the difference of opinions forces the poster to justify their stand...WHart once said this to J Wolfe re the race controversy, and I was truly impressed by his reasoning! I have learned so much from all thes posts below. So long as they do not degenerate into name calling and insults, diverse opinions should force the reader to take stock, re-evaluate, reconsider and repost if there are counter arguments. If it boils down to strictly the most races won, Taek is right, Porsche wins. Truly amazing when the car SHOULD NOT have been competitive in the first place with the crazy engine placement! And let's not forget the little Mini Cooper. I love underdogs! And yes, ultimately, I sincerely hope for strong competition. All manufacturers need it so we, the consumer, get the best product. Should Ferrari make the best product in all their offerings? They certainly should given the selling prices, but they don't. One top dog does not give us bragging rights. Now if Ferrari starts making each of their cars so far ahead of the curve... | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 548 Registered: 6-2002 |
james- they're on the 360 Challenge Stradale. Not cheap, but Ferrari's "most inexpensive"  Taek- OR IT CAN BE THE SOUND! For me it's the sound on an F355. That alone makes the thing worth more than $150k <or whatever market is these days> to me. That the car even moves is a bonous. And Allan- I can say with authority that Art's F355 DOES MOVE, I would challenge anyone to keep up with him on any challenging street or track environment. There may be faster straight line machines, there may even be faster cars on slicks. But when it comes right down to it, up the PCH, a fairly light car with a low-mounted ~380hp, a clacking 6-speed, THAT SOUND and a great responsive chassis, well, it's really all you need. (c'mon, you have one, you know what I'm talking about. I'm sure the SV eats it for lunch though. Best! Ben. | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2003 |
Napolis, are you serious when you say you would jump in an Enzo and not mind if yours was a friday night special? The thing should be put together perfect and this one wasn't. You cannot say that because it is a Ferrari and cost a vast sum of money that it therefore becomes devoid of criticism. I am just pointing out what was in the article, Ferrari also refused to do two way acceleration tests when Autocar was at Fiorano, going one way (downhill) only. And refused to allow a car to be compared directly to the Maclaren in a two way test. In spite of saying the Enzo is a (lets not forget it's over 10 years old)Maclaren beater. If it was Porsche or Lamborghini pulling these stunts they'd be skinned alive by this forum. And I was talking more about the Modena and Maranello when I spoke about Ferrari lifting their game, I don't consider the Enzo to be the bread and butter Ferrari that most of us aspire to or could hope to afford. And yes 11 sec is quick but why can't they make those flash brakes affordable to a lot more Ferrari owners, like Porsche has been doing for years........ | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1433 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yep, Hugh, thanks from me, too, for reminding me of the humanity of all this (even though i don't spend nearly much time-yet-at the track); these things are designed by people, built by others, and driven (hopefully) by those that love, curse and admire them. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1474 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, I too bought my car thinking that racing pedigree and stuff like that was crucial to have in the bloodlines. Truth be told, Hugh mentioned this earlier, the difference between race and street is too severe to even consider as a factor in street car purchasing. I bought a Porsche Turbo. Porsche has an amazing track record but when it's all said and done, I miss the Murcielago. Even if it hasn't won a single race, or if the marque hasn't gotten anywhere in racing. The ghost of Ferdinand Porsche is not gonna push the Turbo any faster or make it feel any more visceral than it is. And when it comes down to your heart skipping a beat it is entirely personal preference. For some it's a shape, for others a certain feel, for others it's bragging rights. In my opinion, the latter, saying that Ferraris are the best because they've won F1, or Lamborghinis are the best because they go fastest in a sprint to 60, is the poseur. Get the car because it feels "right" when you test drive it. I've made the mistake of buying because it made sense to buy. Because history is supposed to matter, and because of practical reasons. Looking back I'm minus a chunk of change in the bank account and there are still cars that make me go "Wow! I could've..." Look at the Benzes. Also very solid motor racing in it's bloodlines. The only car that comes with a friggin' stick is the lowly ones mated to the anemic 230 engine (US, mind you). Way to appeal to the enthusiast! Amazing machines, but not exactly driving heaven and a far cry from the silver arrows. Yet enthusiasts and the general public eat them up. They love them. That's because they make so much sense. Personally though, who gives a rat's ass. Gimme a Miura SV anyday over even, dare I say, a Murcielago. Just looking at Jim's GT40 is more enjoyable that driving my friend's E500. Life is way too short to worry about how many grocery bags the trunk can fit, or small puddles of oil in the garage floor. Cheers | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 671 Registered: 6-2002 |
See Art, thats the difference between you and i, your close to 100 years old, while im in my early 30's. When i was growing up, it was the Countach that ruled the world. Oh and Art, i have a 355, and if you think that it is the pinnacle of performance, you set your goals very low. Ill take a Lambo tractor anyday. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 602 Registered: 5-2002 |
How about those supras..... back to the point, 460 sounds right for the next gen....I've notice----THIS IS NOT A COMPARISON----that the small fcars have been about 200-300 lb light and 20 hp or so more than the vettes for the past 25 years. Although with both baby lambo and viper at 500, I have to admit I'll be disappointed in them if ferrari doesn't call....I hope this isn't too off topic.... | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2080 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jeff: No I was a block away, and the fire wasn't Ferrari's fault. I bought my car for a very good reason: when I was growing up, Ferraris were the absolute top of the line. Lambos were tractors. Had Lambo decided to go racing, and done something with it, maybe I'd changed my mind. No, they just build cars for posers. When they win their first world championship at something that invovled performance for cars, I'll be impressed, and maybe I'll change mine mind. Until then, I'll leave the farming implements to themselves. Art | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 670 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hugh, you basicly described how i feel every time i look at my Lambo. It makes my heart beat faster, and I feed it 100 octane here all the time. When a new magazine is coming out featuring a Lambo i check for it every day at Every newstand. I collect everything Lambo, for that matter, also Ferrari, Lotus, Porsche, etc. I used to know the feeling of getting to go race, but not the kind of racing you like, but drag racing in my Porsche. Yes, i also do work on my own cars, I havent seen a repair shop in years. Rs Biomed, thats a good picture of some Ferrari ass kickers! You guys think that i only think Lambo is the best, truthfully, dollar for dollar, the Lotus is also a better car than most Ferraris. I dont think the Enzo is a failure. It does what ferrari wants it to do, lets guys like most of you dream of the unobtainable, while meanwhile driving a much lessor car bearing the same insignia, somehow thinking your one and the same. I agree that the Enzo is the pinnacle of performance, but for the most part it is unobtainable, therefore does not factor into the equation. If an Enzo was 300,000 and the Murcielago was 300,000, i would buy the Enzo. Thats the price tag the Enzo would be worth to me. Since its nowhere near that, the Murcielago inmo, is the best Supercar available. | ||
| RS Biomedical (Rsbiomedical)
New member Username: Rsbiomedical Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2001 |
Evolution.  This is an optical illusion if you look closely you will see 2 sports cars (pre-bbq) in front of the Lamborghini tractor. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1469 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hugh, You just put everything in perspective to just about every poster in this thread. Thanks for the excellent post. Jim, >>all real cars leak until they warm up<< My dad says that all the time. Something about operating temperatures tightening things up, meaning they need to be used to be in full glory...or something? Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2028 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hugh my friend you nailed it right between the eyes. I'm going to walk out to the garage look at my MK-IV, take a wiff of the 40W Valvoline seeping out of the pan, (all real cars leak until they warm up) and go upstairs and dream about the time Jim Hall and his high winged white monster pulled away from me like I was standing still... | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1051 Registered: 1-2002 |
allan: one last thing, and I promise to stay out of your threads. do you really have any heart? what i mean is, do you have any real enthusiasm? do you really love motorsport, cars... can you pick up on the scent of 110 octane? do you know what it's like to have it saturate you in the pits? can you tell if a car's running rich or lean? can you hear a car in your chest? can you speak to it? have you ever gotten a blown car home on a prayer and some soft words to the dash? have you ever not eaten or slept b/c you had a race the next morning, or because you just blew your last $100 on race gas, and spare pads/rotors? i don't know you, and i'll probably never meet (although i would buy you a beer to hear your take on the above), but it just seems like your comments are without spirit. you refute with numbers, spec sheets, etc. but what's that worth? just because you can feel the keys, doesn't mean that the car's really there. enjoy what you've got, it's more than anybody i know, and just enough to where we'd sell our souls just to have a go. have a good weekend. hubert. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1467 Registered: 11-2002 |
Steve, Good post. One point I would like to disagree with... >>5)Ferrari has the most glorious racing history of any auto company in history<< I think that Porsche takes that cake. They are the winningest marque in automotive history with the most wins in motorsports. True about the Lamorghinis in boating! Good to see we have a marine fan here! Jim, Thanks for the info. Paul, Nice tractor. Don't forget that the heart of Lamborghinis ambitions was started with the 350GT-Miura. Guess who was involved in design and testing and engineering. The best of the era. Engine designed by Giotto Bizzarini and made streetable with other names like Dallara, Stanzani, Wallace, et al. You like tractors? You should see the ones Dave Brown was involved in. He also, incidentally, had something to do with a certain car called DBR1. You know, the one that was in such heated racing with Ferraris pride and joy at the time (Testarossas). Won one out of the three years in competition. Aston Martin DB(X). Well, if you didn't know, that's what DB stands for. And if you didn't know, Bizzarini designed the engine for arguably one of the most respected and recognized Ferraris of all time: 250 GTO. Cheers | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 555 Registered: 10-2001 |
The Enzo is a failure in my eyes because they did all the engineering and dreaming to make such a wonderful car, and then did not take advantage of economies of scale to produce a few thousand copies at $400,000 each Ferrari's idea of only making 400 cars at a huge price that puts it out of reach of so many car fans... and then letting us read about how great the cars are... well they are just pissing me off! Thanks Ferrari. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2331 Registered: 4-2002 |
SHI@#$T JAMES YOUR THAT OLD?? SERIOUSLY MR LEE UP YOUR PROZAC..AS IM WITH JAMES...I CANY COMPREHEND YOU BRUCE | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 272 Registered: 12-2002 |
Does Lambo still make tractors? If not, are the old ones collector items? I like the tractor and the Fiat too. Luke. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2026 Registered: 10-2002 |
James Lee Lift their game? 0-100-0 in 11.2? Having sat in and driven an Enzo I can tell you I have no fuc king idea what your talking about. It's one impressive motherfu cker. It's not exactly my taste. As Allan has pointed out I'm a senile dinosuor who likes his P4 better which is a lot lumpier than an Enzo but anyone who complains about the weave, which BTW is imaculate, is like mentioning the nicks in Jimi Hendrix's strat. When I stood in the mud at Woodstock and heard him play Purple Haze I didn't notice the nicks in his strat. Silly me. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 669 Registered: 6-2002 |
Paul, that is a very cool Lambo you have a picture of! I just noticed the spiritual predecesor to the 360 Spider!  | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2003 |
I have to agre that we will never reach a happy medium on the subject. The UK magazine Autocar ran an article on the Enzo and a seperate article on the new V10 Porsche. They were amazed that the Carbon fibre weave in the Enzo cabin could be so appalling, sort of like the modern day equivalent to the italian welding 20 years ago. After reading about the Porsche and it's attention to detail it's obvious both Italian manufacturers are going to have to lift their game. I have enjoyed this thread and hope it doesn't get personal and Ferrari does have a far more illustrious past than Lamborghini but I would say a downside of this is that they can occasionally build "lapses in Judgement" and hoist them on the public who lap it up because it is a Ferrari. Lamborghini are not in this position and if the Murce didn't go as well as it does no-one would be buying it. Ferrari can also build limited editions (F40) and then keep on churning them out the door because people are still buying them and they will probably go well past 349 Enzos. Any other manufacturer wouldn't get away with it, but you could argue more cars means more people get the opportunity to drive them. Does any one remember when EVO mag did a Car of the Year (200O?), the GT3 edged out the Modena and Ferrari sulked for the next 12 months and refused to have any contact with the magazine. Ya gotta love the italians... | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 257 Registered: 4-2003 |
Steve, Taek, Bill, Great posts. Heartily agree. Competition breeds improvement and choice, and I for one love it. Remember BL (before Lexus)? Mercedes dealers treated many customers with snooty, off handed manners. They forgot who was paying the bills. The fact is my local Lambo dealer tries MUCH harder to get my business, knowing he has to. My exclusive, sanctioned, F dealer is nice too, but there lies the difference. One dealer WANTS my business, the other is indifferent. Either way, I now have more choice with the Gallardo. Have scheduled to drive one when they arrive. If all goes well, I'm getting a Yellow to match the Dino! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2025 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek Both. After 67 no more covered headlights. Calif required air pumps. 4 way flashers. Dot tires. I believe the regulations began, slowly at first, to bite. Bumper height. Bumpers for that matter. KO Spinners. | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 200 Registered: 6-2001 |
Steve--incredibly well said. I may own a Lambo at some point as well. For me, I had always dreamed of owning a Ferrari. Not because it was best, fastest, reliable, well built or anything. It is just the marque that captured my devotion in high school, and it stuck. Now that I've had a 360, would I consider a Gallardo instead of the 360 replacement. Maybe. My favorite sports car is the one I happen to be driving at the time. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 121 Registered: 3-2003 |
Lamborghinis have a rich racing history here at the Michigan State Fair tractor pulls.  | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1205 Registered: 5-2001 |
WM hart and Steve V-10, Thanks for your great posts! | ||
| Steve (V10_nut)
Junior Member Username: V10_nut Post Number: 83 Registered: 3-2002 |
WOW...The ol Lambo vs. Ferrari discussion really hits some of us like a dental drill on an exposed nerve. In an open market isn't it a good thing for Ferrari to have some competition in the small two-seater class? Or do you enjoy getting your name at the end of a long list of customers for every new model that comes out of Maranello? I think not. The notion that Lambo will hurt Ferrari's market share is laughable. Ferrari will continue to have a waiting list for whatever they chose to replace the 360 with. And so likewise will Lamborghini with the Gallardo. They're not going to crank these things out like Corvettes. Ferrari will always have their glorious history and continue to build world class sports cars but give Lambo a little credit for taking on the giant with a 500hp slingshot. Here are a couple of opinions: 1)Lamborghini's break...so do Ferrari's. 2)Lambo parts are Expensive!...so are Ferarri's 3)Posers buy Lamborghini's...Posers buy Ferrari's 4)A Diablo isn't the best track car...neither is a Maranello 5)Ferrari has the most glorious racing history of any auto company in history....contrary to a previous post, Lamborghini builds some of the most powerful racing engines in the world and have world championships under their belt in offshore racing. 6)Lambo's have always been expensive...twelve cylinder Ferrari's have always been expensive. 7)This forum will never reach a happy medium on the subject. I chose to appreciate these two companies for their own particular personalities. I love Ferrari's for a lot of reasons. I love Lamborghini's for a lot of different reasons. It's great for all of us to have passionate opinions about these cars but to reduce the arguments to some kind of Supra vs. Corvette debate is to me childish. So There! Steve | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1048 Registered: 1-2002 |
allan: you ain't missing a beat, per my comment: >>(when ferrari builds a car w/ 100k t-belt intervals, I'll buy one).<< that's the truth, and it intimates my opinion of ferrari service costs. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1428 Registered: 12-2001 |
I had somehow managed to avoid this thread so far. Allan: i'm with you to a degree on the fact that Lambo makes interesting cars, and that Ferrari is not the be all and end all of exotics. It is also not perfect in build quality and not cheap to repair or immune from depreciation. For all of those things, you are a reminder, a thorn sometimes, but in my view, a necessary one, to keep this honest. Yet, and here's where i part ways with your world view, it cannot always come down to Lambo is the best, full stop. That's just not rational, and frankly, it gets all of us nowhere. Rob: i do find Allan amusing, and i love it when he comes out swinging. But, the posts descend into the sort of bait and flame that none of us should be proud of. Yet,even if this were a rational debate about the merits of the latest ferrari model, and what it has to contend with from the competition, i wouldn't doubt some strong feelings and heated comments. Its just that Allan is always playing the prick. So, here's a provocative statement i dare you to disagree with, Allan: Lambos are great, interesting cars. (I will probably own one at some point, a point on which you can hardly be asked to opine) There are also other great interesting cars being made by other manufacturers and the competition is healthy since it forces improvements in performance and ergonomics from which all of us benefit. But, what we are discussing is largely a rich man's game, and one invested with a huge amount of emotion, like rooting for a particular team. While there may be great points and weak points about each, there are few absolutes. And relying on blanket statements about the "best" is ultimately pretty meaningless. | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 747 Registered: 2-2002 |
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| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 668 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes, lets talk about Ferrari interiors. My 1997, now 7,000 mile, 1 owner, garage kept 355 Spider, basicly needs to have the whole dash and instrument binnacle replaced. My 1998 Diablo, with 30,000 miles, has an interior that looks as new. Have you seen the interiors of any older Ferrari's? Theyre horrific. How much orange peel in your paint? How many recalls has the 360 had? How many of you have noted having serious problems with them? Have you ever seen the fit and finish on an F40? Thats what i call laughable. Only the Muira schooled Ferrari? Sorry, but the Countach and the Diablo schooled every corresponding Ferrari, except the F40,F50, and Enzo. Yes Clax, now that you mention it, my uncle is a little girlie. He wanted a car that would blend in with all the other doctors cars, and not cause any attention. Something most people wouldnt discern from the average Corvette. He got what he wanted. Hubert, am i missing something? Lambos are expensive to fix? Really? Wow, Ferraris are cheap right? How many timing belt changes will you go through in an F-car in a lifetime? Some of you guys just hate knowing that Ferrari is not number 1 in anything other than F1. People who dont give a rats ass about F1 regard them as overpriced and underperforming, and since the 512, dull and uninspiring. Atleast Lamborghini, has the looks, and the performance to match. It may not be the fastest, but for the money it is the best. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5569 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well, if we jumped the gun the first time, I appologize, but the 199 since then I don't. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1462 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rob, All I'm saying is that if I were new to the forum and didn't know Allan or his storied past. I would not have passed judgement on his comment at all and just conducted a good discussion. If it gets unruly then that's a different story. I just think you guys jumped the gun a bit that's all. Jim, Are those restrictions mechanical or safety restrictions? It would be interesting to find out... Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2024 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek So far as I know 67 was the last year without any regulation. The regs began in 68 and got more restrictive from there. Best | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 717 Registered: 2-2002 |
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| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5566 Registered: 12-2000 |
Taek-Ho Kwon, every one of these terrible threads starts down the wrong path with Allan. How can you defend that. It's not just one comment or another, it's everything and that's all he does! He adds absolutely no value at all to FerrariChat.com, only takes away from it and it pisses me off. I have worked too hard on this site to make it a great community for him to day after day take away from it. If this wasn't a public community, then he would of been gone long ago. Most people on this board can maturely state their opinions without an underlying tone that is condescending, instigating, disrespectful, and from the South end of a North bound bull (how appropriate). People like this need a good ass kicking. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1457 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, I've heard '67 was the cutoff too. But... Let's take Corvettes for example. The real beast emerged in 1967 with the L88 engine option. A racing engine in a street car. Truly outstanding car. The same engine option was also offered in 1968. How was that thing legal? Also, the Daytona's engine, wasn't that thing relatively close to the race versions? I thought the mechanical cutoff was around 1971 when everything from Mustangs to Ferraris seemed to just start choking under emissions regulations. 1971 is definitely the last year of the muscle car era because of heavy restrictions. What were the things passed in 1967 that makes it the cutoff? Some muscle cars saw their best models way past that year. Plymouth Cudas were only good in 1970-1971, for example. Were the regulations different for domestic and foreign markets? Were the regulations set forth in 1967 with 1971 as the deadline to comply with them? Cheers Cheers | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 442 Registered: 3-2002 |
Guys I have to go to Army National Guard drill. I will return to this interesting post. Enjoy the weekend. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1456 Registered: 11-2002 |
Honestly guys, I hate when I'm in the situation where I have to defend Allan, but I don't think there's anything wrong with his second post at all. >>Gallardo will kill it.<< Personal opinion. I've seen posts much worst that were tackled with intelligent discussions. The second part is simply stating what he heard from a source with credibility that substantiates the first comment. I mean really. I think there's just overreaction here due to the fact that Allan does tend to post abrasive posts. Cheers | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2023 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ralph You're right 67 was the cutoff. BTW that's why IMHO 67 and earlier racecars have such value. They can legally be driven on the road. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1455 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hugh, I agree with your analysis of street vs. race 100%. I disagree however with the three factors they have used to successfully build an aura around their vehicles. Cheers | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5565 Registered: 12-2000 |
Nope, Allan started it as usual, the 2nd post of the entire thread. Nothing has changed, it only will when Allan is gone. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1454 Registered: 11-2002 |
Geee great...another mostly unconstructive Lambo vs. Ferrari thread. Clax, You got schooled. If you drag the conversation through the mud, there's no way to avoid getting dirty. Allan's uncle did get a 360, as it's consistent with his posts waaaay in the past. As for getting one below MSRP right now, I'm not exactly sure but I do know someone I know purchased one and didn't pay under MSRP. He didn't however pay way over sticker either. Jim, I know some folks who want to get that car as well! That would be awesome. What a fantastic machine! Easily my favorite modern car. Good luck in your acquisition, I hear it's going to be a tough one to rope in. Guys, Remember that Ferruccio Lamborghini gave everyone specific orders NOT to have his cars in racing. His first couple of cars were built by the most competent race car builders of the time. There are plenty of stories of these talented young people pleading to get these cars on the tracks. As a matter of fact, Lamborghini lost all of these guys because he insisted in NOT racing, when they all wanted to see their fruits of their labor prove itself in the tracks. His purpose was to build superior road cars. They finally tried their hand at F1 under different ownership. Teamed up with Minardi. Obviously a failed attempt. They've never been back. The parent company didn't realize just how expensive it is to get into racing at levels like F1. The entry barrier is enormous. As for build quality. I don't think that's a term found in Italian engineering altogether. Diablo might look like they were put together by teenagers (an opinion I strongly disagree with) but plenty of Ferraris suffer from the "incredible melting interior" with cheap plastic bits that turn into a messy goo. Both makers have a long way to go before getting to Honda/Toyota territory. That's not why any of us purchase these cars. Cheers | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1046 Registered: 1-2002 |
ralph: re: street v. race car. It's not so much that the recent beaurocrats have sucked the living viscous soul out of the current cars; it's the fact that technology has so bifurcated, and enlarged, the chasm b/w street and race cars that they really live in seperate spheres. The only manufacture, IMO, that has lived up to the credo of building a car you can take to work mon-fri and race on sunday is porsche; the 993, 996, 996TT, and ultimatly the GT 2 (and now GT 3) are cars that translate the absoloutly most visceral feeling, as they share engine, chassis, etc. of the race car, while not causing the owner hesitation for fear of milage and outrageous service costs (when ferrari builds a car w/ 100k t-belt intervals, I'll buy one). In the era that james speaks of, the race cars WERE street cars, that's now impossible; todays "street-based" race cars are only hollowed shells, and have no resemblance to what's on park avenue, or the front straight. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1045 Registered: 1-2002 |
Gee, another pissing contest, yay. I can't quite discern who whipped their's out first, but I'd say it was Mr. F, again. Anyway... so the 360's gonna have more HP, Lambo's got the uber-soapdish g-car murci jr. on the market, and we still can't come to grips that two seperate car manufactures can make two competeing vehicles, within the same segment, without coming to blows? Fact is LAMBO/AUDI will probably never campaign their cars seriously. The diablo GTR's running in the JGTC series are dubbed (warmheartedly Mr. F) as rolling billboards, no more. Lambos market niche has always been, or attempted to be, ferraris preverbial thorn in their side; with the miura they accomplished this, but since then, the shades of grey have grown, exponentially. Lambos never really pursued being a world class manufacture (no racing efforts, no ultra rare models that push the pinnacle of that marque, no motorsport interest, nothing...) what lambo has been good at is creating an aura around their cars b/c 1. they're italian 2. they usually come with large chrome wheels standard and flashy paint jobs and 3. they cost a sh&t load. I was going to add that they are ergonomical nightmares, cost a fortune to fix, and are akin to swimming with bricks at slow speeds, but the earlier f cars weren't really all that better, in those regards. all's fair, right? Consequentlly, they've never made the impression ferrari has, that's a fact. Owned now by AUDI , maybe, just maybe they'll be able to establish a similar pedigree by competing in contemporary racing venues, but i doubt it. I think lambo will still insist on catering to the niche market they've developed, and will subseqently never really be the epitome of their market share; the cars seem to be compromises. Driving a modern lamborghini is a much akin to fuc&ing with beautiful posture; sure, it may be the "correct" way, but it lacks passion. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 441 Registered: 3-2002 |
James you are correct. I choose my (35 year) statement wisely in my opinion. I agree years ago you could order your car drive it during the week and race on Sunday. The car would get you home after the race on Sunday. The EPA and DOT has made that difficult today. I mentioned how normal production Lamborghinis and recent modern Ferraris (cars manufactured approximately the last 35 years) are hi-perfomance GT street cars that have racing components. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2022 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ralph 36 years ago street Ferrari's were race cars as well. I drove my 275GTB to the track, (mostly hillclimbs) raced it and drove it home. Several of this era cars were able to do this. Cobra's, Corvette's, E Jags, Aston's, MG's, etc. All I'm saying is racing has become something quite different. The speed 8 I posted is exhibited without it's engine in that shot. Why? Because when they tried to drive the race winner on the Champs Elleyse to honor it's victory it blew up. Watch "A man and a woman" He win's the Monte Ralley and then drives his 350GT back to Paris. A friend of mine once drove a 427 Cobra from Cali to Sebring and then raced it. The class winning Ferrari 250 GTO at LeMans in 62 was driven back to Paris. Bolting on AP Brakes does not a racecar make... | ||
| david charles (Supraboytt)
Junior Member Username: Supraboytt Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2001 |
indeed -but certainly a positive for either a ferrai fan or a lambo guy just raising the bar with the amv8 coming out the continental- more of a gt porsche gt2 ford gt sl55- possible 65 the mid 100's sports car market should certainly meet demand unlike now - where the 360 pretty much owns it thats why people are still getting gouged(sp) on 360 spiders- 3 ••••••• years after its introduction everyone wins with lambo finally providing some legit competition to ferrari's entry level cars -except of course ferrari - whos gotta produce one hell of a 360 replacement to own the market the way they have | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 440 Registered: 3-2002 |
David - the Gallardo will be some serious competition for all of the marketplace. | ||
| david charles (Supraboytt)
New member Username: Supraboytt Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2001 |
http://www.topgear.com/content/misc/magazine/ read mag cover | ||
| david charles (Supraboytt)
New member Username: Supraboytt Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2001 |
any of you guys read top gear our brothers over in the uk already have the current edition on their magazine shelves according to their website www.topgear.com the new gallardo is quite a bit faster than a 360 doesn;t go into depth - just a little blurb on the cover I've hit Barnes and Nobles that last few days- still not out : ( shouild provide wuite a bit of insight for the debate | ||
| RICK ROMERO (Tr90)
Junior Member Username: Tr90 Post Number: 197 Registered: 4-2001 |
Alan, let see you uncle walk into a F-dealership and buy a spider at sticker and no waiting list! | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 714 Registered: 2-2002 |
"David thats a pic of my Diablo shooting flames out the exhaust." I wonder how much that option costs? | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 271 Registered: 12-2002 |
Renault, not Reneau. :-) | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 713 Registered: 2-2002 |
Alan, Try visiting this site Lamborghini-talk I heard they talk nice about Lambos over there! Remember this is a Ferrari board and while we all appreciate Lambos we are not here to talk about them. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1391 Registered: 8-2001 |
You Lambo guys go ahead and post away. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 439 Registered: 3-2002 |
Now all the "BIG" F chat posters are heading out to the big party in Kali. Seems like someone forget to shut the lights in the house? All the Lambo guys were left at home without an invatation! You better call for some reinforcements. You do not want to get overun. Better call 1-900-plz-help. All the Lambo guys are coming out of the woodwork and are ganging up on y'all on your own door step. Guerilla Warfare at its finest. LOL | ||
| Clax (Clax)
Junior Member Username: Clax Post Number: 73 Registered: 10-2002 |
Fiddler, Your uncle is a girl? MY uncle can leap tall buildings in a single bound. | ||
| Clax (Clax)
Junior Member Username: Clax Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2002 |
Who's bragging about Ferrari build quality? In very pleasant terms, I said that the Diablo build quality is laughable. If you try to tell me anything different, than you are the one talking out of your a$$. By the way, nice pics. Although it would be interesting to see what some graffiti might look like on the sides of the 360. Fast & Furious. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1390 Registered: 8-2001 |
Allan, The differences are there. But a 360GT still retain the same basic chassis as the street car. The engine compartment still look pretty much the same. In Grand Am, they even retained the "clunky" F1 system, with which they won races and the 2002 GT title. | ||
| Vik (Speed_demon_666)
New member Username: Speed_demon_666 Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2002 |
Its amazing...how people are just dazed and misled by the Ferrari name and "heritage". Don't you think that even after years of so termed racing heritage and funding surpassing any other brand, Ferrari is NOT the best out there. Look at the Zonda, Carerra GT and HELL YEAH the Lambo. Even after all the financial turmoils Lambo has been through it always had Ferrari in its sights and did mighty good with the Countach and Diablo. And guess what with Audi at the new helm..Ferrari better get its act right...or else the Bull is just gonna gore the prancing pony into oblivion. Ferrari has started fading....has been fading for a while with street cars....now F1 too...so much for the F2003GA... I appreciate all exotics but yeah I do admit I AM a hardcore lamborghini fanatic. I hang around Fchat cause I do admire some Ferrari's, the F40 for instance and above all cause of the cool folks who hang aroun here and the info. But sometimes...some of you...just refuse to accept the fact and hide behind the Ferrari brand name and follow the mass.....BTW I think the 360 is pretty ugly....... Reliability....lets not get started on the fcars....was it not recently like 232 Fcars were recalled?? That speaks volumes... If you need a kick ass exotic, reliable,affordable, awesome for both street and track get a P 911 turbo ( What say Taek ?? ) oh yeah.....and the Gallardo. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 438 Registered: 3-2002 |
James: 4RE street cars like lamo's are not racing cars in stock form ! We both know that a 20 year old kid with a 350 Chevy souped up with $7,000 in modifications ( engine and suspension ) in a new style SLP SS Camaro is going to leave our cars in the dust on a track. You have to compare stock cars to stock. Build Quality ? A new 40K Lexus has superior build quality. Lexus can just about compete with everything out there. P.S. I also love Ferrari's. I am looking for a BBI. Keep your fingers crossed. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 667 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes Clax, it is a girls car. And yes my Uncle bought it, and if you search through the forums and youll see the problems hes had with it. I had it for a week, and it was very uninspiring. Please, try not talking out of your A$$ when it comes to Ferrari build quality, ive owned many, and continue to do so, their build quality is not something to brag about.    | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2021 Registered: 10-2002 |
Allan I admire Pagani. He's a guy who has followed his dream and built a car against many odds. The styling isn't my cup of tea but it's very fine and true to his vision. I think unfortuneatly that today it costs so much to race successfully that it's no longer possible for anyone to compete with the cubic dollars that Ferrari, Porsche, VW, BMW, MB, Reneau,Toyota, Honda, etc. are willing to spend. Guys like me who bought an old Lola for $3,500 worked on them in our garages,pulled them to the track on an open trailer, and ran with the big dogs no longer have a chance. Ferrari now spends over 1 million $ a day on racing and they only compete in F1... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1930 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>the same key of a VW Jetta.. what is this???... << Oh my how nieve... I'll sell you Iveco Truck keys all day long that ARE Ferrari keys, and door locks..and..well I'm not going to give away all of Ferraris secret Fiat & Iveco Truck stash of parts info.. Actually I just painted my Iveco Truck Ferrari Red and now it can't be told from a Ferrari if you go by the parts. ;-) | ||
| Clax (Clax)
Junior Member Username: Clax Post Number: 71 Registered: 10-2002 |
Fiddler, Wow, the ultimate girls car. That's the best you can come up with? Weak, very weak. I suppose if I was trying to bolster my manhood to compensate for something lacking, I would drive a Diablo SV with Graffiti on it. But, I don't have that problem, so it won't be necessary for me to buy a car with build quality that is rivaled by the Ford Taurus. FYI Fiddler, 328's are still cool cars, and I don't recall ever seeing one where the body panels didn't line up properly (unlike a Diablo). "Your uncle" bought a 360 8-9 months ago at sticker with zero wait time? Give me a break. I love it when people start a story off with "my uncle". When I hear "my uncle", the BS radar runs rampant. My uncle, my arse. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 666 Registered: 6-2002 |
James, dont you think Pagani needs alittle more time to be competitive? Hey Jeff, thats pretty funny! He probobly just forgot about a little incident like that. You know cars catch fire so often you tend to forget.lol | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 174 Registered: 9-2002 |
Art, I think Allen's got you on that one! Did you hitch home when your 355 caught on fire? You guys kill me!!! |