| Author | Message | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5592 Registered: 12-2000 |
Allan won't drive on the track and he admits that. He prefers drawing attention and keeping 700 hp at idle from stop light to stop light. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 456 Registered: 3-2002 |
No Hugh: Just the smiley face with the lime green hat. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 560 Registered: 10-2001 |
I'd like to see the William's black 512 race Allan's white Lambo SV Martin, your good at setting up events... how do we get that race started? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1448 Registered: 12-2001 |
I'm betting on Hugh. Anybody else? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1056 Registered: 1-2002 |
ralph- you got something against the bavarians? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1055 Registered: 1-2002 |
I'll bring my track shitbox with me, for laughs ofcourse, and see how it stacks up against the "big boys." hubert. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 455 Registered: 3-2002 |
Track ? What is a track ? I only wax my car and drive around in a lime green hat with a red feather. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5143 Registered: 5-2001 |
What good does HP do any of you if you can not control the power on the asphalt? Yep, you can sit at the bar and reminis about what you could do. Track it and then we talk... | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5142 Registered: 5-2001 |
I second Huberts idea! Backseat Quarterbacks are a good thing but you have to stop battling on the keyboard and start getting in the car and prove it! You can get smoked in your Enzo or Muci for that matter by a Honda Civic on the track if it is driven by a better driver. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 453 Registered: 3-2002 |
You cannot compare a Murciealago to an Enzo. Give me a break. That is like comparing a Boxer to a GT4. The price of the Enzo allows you to equip the car with more toys. What is next ? Compare the Enzo to a 1500 BHP race car ? | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 878 Registered: 4-2002 |
"Nah, the 355 Spider is better looking." indubitably! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1054 Registered: 1-2002 |
i'm going to interject one more time. everyone: b/w all of you here, you've got more than enough money to rent out a race track for the day, right? so, to all those fuelling the fire, let's get off the lazyboy, and settle it. pick a track, bring the cars, attach hot lap timers, and have a REAL WORLD test, of your own. black & white, on paper. pick equivelent tires, brake pads, and brake fluid and have at. the lap timers don't lie. ps- the 360 spyder is the best one since the california. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 687 Registered: 6-2002 |
Nah, the 355 Spider is better looking. | ||
| David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Member Username: Racerdj Post Number: 320 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't own a Spider but the only thing "Girly" about the Spider is all the women that love to look at the Best Looking Soft Top EVER made. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 685 Registered: 6-2002 |
Lol. Here we go again, comparing a 278,000, 425 unit a year Lamborghini to a 349 total unit, 700,000 Ferrari. Sad when you feel justified in this comparison. The good thing is, that by making this comparison, you know how insignificant your little girlie 360 Spider is. It along with any other current production Ferrari, that is made for the real road going market, cannot hold a candle to the Murcielago, nor the Diablo. In your mind all other Lambos were an embarrasment, in my mind, driving a girlie convertible, for 200,000+, that can barely outrun a stock C5 Corvette, get smoked by a Z06, is an embarrasment. Im glad you know of a Murci that you can get for below Msrp, just as i know of plenty 575, you could get below msrp. Face it, the only reason the Enzo exists, is so that guys like you, in your little girlie car, can leach of its name and existance, while driving a car, that shares the same name, but nothing in similarity. Oh and KCCk, a 456 is a mans car? LOL, i guess maybe in the same sense of the word as a Volvo station wagon. Hope you bought that one new, they hold their value like mad!lol | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2697 Registered: 9-2001 |
Here, here JRV. Thats me. I love Ferraris old and new. But, I do have my own opinion on ones I like and ones I don't. And, I recognize that there are a lot of other cars out there that have superior performance to its competing Ferrari model. That doesn't mean I perfer that other marque car, it just means that I recognize its superior performance. I had a 1998 Viper GTS that was superior in almost all respects to the both the 550 and 360. But, I still would have rather owned a 550. I perfer the Viper over the 360 though. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1935 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>In the normal course of events, I would regard people who own Ferraris, but who still criticize Ferraris, as "Ferrari supporters". In most cases, they criticize Ferraris because they genuinely care. << LOL Uhhhhh...how about regarding them as HONEST & REALISTIC! Not everyone belongs to The Church of Ferrari ! It is quite possible to enjoy them, like them, want them, without worshipping them FYI! | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5591 Registered: 12-2000 |
Luckily David we'll have that shortly. | ||
| David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Member Username: Racerdj Post Number: 319 Registered: 1-2003 |
"He bought a coupe, red/black 6 speed. He wanted something to drive to the office that would not draw the attention of the other doctors." That's totally BS. The 360 draws attention everywhere. That's why it takes double the time to fill up at Shell. Doctors that do not want attention will not choose any Ferrari esp. the 360. Allan get real! I'm still looking for the "Ignore Member Setting" | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 451 Registered: 10-2002 |
"... nowadays, Ferraris are compared with much lessor vehicles, such as the Viper and Corvettes, because for far less money, you get far more performance". And yet despite all these, Ferraris are still selling all the cars that they can built? Now that is what I would call magic in the name. | ||
| Clax (Clax)
Junior Member Username: Clax Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2002 |
Fiddler, No broker made money off my purchase. I ordered my car and bought for MSRP. I didn't just walk in off the street one day, I waited. By the way, brokers didn't inflate the 360 market. Customer demand inflated it. And those people who lost $100K plus, probably don't give a damn. They wanted it first, and they got theirs first. That's the price some people will pay to get it fast. In virtually every test, Lambo comes out on top? What are you referring to? Lambo has had ONE car for the last few years. ONE. There is a second car on the way, but you are obviously referring to previous tests. If you compare the Murci to the Enzo, what is the result? Does the Lambo come out on top then? In my mind, the Murcielago is the first decent car they have built. The previous vehicles are an embarassment. And if I wanted a Murci, I know of 2 at my local dealer that I can get for MUCH LESS than MSRP. By the way, Ferraris aren't compared to Vipers and Corvettes. Vipers and Corvettes are compared to Ferraris. There's a difference. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 450 Registered: 10-2002 |
No. I drive a real MAN's car. Hers is just for SHOW.  | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 473 Registered: 4-2002 |
Allan, it makes sense that it was a coupe. i did not think anyone can get a spyder off the lot at sticker. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 684 Registered: 6-2002 |
Will you be upset with the wife driving a much nice and faster car then yours? | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 448 Registered: 10-2002 |
I am looking to buy a Lambo for my wife. It attracts attention like ladies' make-ups. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 683 Registered: 6-2002 |
He bought a coupe, red/black 6 speed. He wanted something to drive to the office that would not draw the attention of the other doctors. | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 472 Registered: 4-2002 |
Allan, did you uncle buy a coupe or a spider? and why did not opt for the lambo? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 681 Registered: 6-2002 |
Clax i can assure you, that the 360 was bought at sticker. Also, some of you guys are very proud of the 360's huge selling prices. Do you realize this is created mostly by brokers in the States making huge money off you? How do you think the guys feel who paid 330,000 for their Spiders? Theyre already looking at a 130,000 loss, and very shortly, a much larger one. As for magazine reports, nowadays, Ferraris are compared with much lessor vehicles, such as the Viper and Corvettes, because for far less money, you get far more performance. When it comes to lamborghini and Ferrari, virtually in every test, lambrghini comes out on top, and so does Porsche. Only real positive press that Ferrari has had lately is on the Enzo. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 447 Registered: 10-2002 |
And I must mention all those friends out there who do not yet own Ferraris, but are working on it because they really feel for and admire the marque. My thoughts are with them all, and I wish them the very best of luck and achievements in life. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 448 Registered: 3-2002 |
I tried to be a 4RE person. I wore the nice jacket and tie. I was thrown out. LOL. I am still trying. Perhaps I can purchase a custom tailored suit in London ? P.S. Really every 4RE dealer was different. I have nothing but nice things to say about all the dealers but one. We will try again. Anybody have a ticket to London for a custom fitting ? | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 446 Registered: 10-2002 |
BTW, I have checked Adrian's profile as well. I am delighted that he belongs to the Ferrari family. In the normal course of events, I would regard people who own Ferraris, but who still criticize Ferraris, as "Ferrari supporters". In most cases, they criticize Ferraris because they genuinely care. By the same token, I would regard people who do not own Ferraris, but who constantly criticize Ferraris, as "Ferrari bashers". In many cases, they criticize Ferraris because they do not own one. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 445 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek-Ho, I don't think Rob has anything against Adrian. It is just that reading between the lines, the thought has occurred to me that perhaps Rob has someone else(s) in mind. But who am I to mind-read for Rob anyway? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1516 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kenneth, Adrian is a Ferrari person. He unlike others, voted with his wallet. I think he bought a Dino and a 328. I remember his early posts inquiring about the cars and then his experiences and excitement when he took delivery. Cheers | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5589 Registered: 12-2000 |
Sorry Adrian, I did misread your post. I'll wear the dunce hat, I just couldn't believe someone would say that as I interpreted it, luckily no one did. My $3,000 1st gen Rx7's w/mods out lap my stock 328 by several seconds. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 444 Registered: 10-2002 |
I guess when non-Ferrari people piss on Ferraris, it pisses Rob off. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1515 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>You have to modify most other makes to even compete. Throw 90% of car makers stock prodcut and see who finishes ahead of Maranello's finest.<< How many of those cars cost as much as a Ferrari? Mustangs and Ferraris? You guys are missing Adrian's point completely. Also, not all comparisons fall on Ferrari. The "Teutonic Terrors" see their fair share of comparos. I've seen countless of articles where the speed king (911 Turbo) is used as a benchmark for 0-60 times and 0-100 times. The LPE Vettes are more known as Viper killers than Ferrari killers. Vipers also see a lot of comparison for their brute force. Because a lot of these cars quite frankly spank Ferrari in their categories (short of the ultra exotic). M3s are often compared even up to the 100k price tag. Lamborghini is often compared to when it comes to eye grabbing design or the "take no prisoners" automotive experience and with the Murcielago a lot of the speed tests too. Ferrari is often compared to, but how many times does it come up on top of the heap? Many admittedly claim if it weren't for the mythic aura (one thing NO OTHER company can beat Ferrari in) these cars would not be put in the high pedestals they are in. I for one have read many articles that have seen various marques from TVR (british rags) to Porsche beat Ferrari in comparisons. Point is not to bash Ferrari (that would truly be pointless), but to show that the reason Ferrari sees so much comparison is because it is a widely recognized marque that has no downmarket (MSRP speaking only) roadcars. There is no such thing as a cheap new Ferrari. So if an auto rag compares a Z06 Corvette, their final verdict can be that this is a cheap Ferrari. Cheers | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 275 Registered: 4-2003 |
Rob, you missed my point. Where did I say equal cars? Why so touchy? | ||
| Raleigh Smith (288gto)
Junior Member Username: 288gto Post Number: 100 Registered: 10-2002 |
The other thing I forgot to mention is why do people say "equally well-driven Ferraris were consistently beaten by slightly modified Mustangs?" That shows the short coming of the other cars right there. You have to modify most other makes to even compete. Throw 90% of car makers stock prodcut and see who finishes ahead of Maranello's finest. Maybe a Porsche turbo, but few others. | ||
| Raleigh Smith (288gto)
Junior Member Username: 288gto Post Number: 99 Registered: 10-2002 |
If you don't agree that Ferrari is the best then why does everyone from magazines to Lambo owner all compare every other car make that is "high performance exotic" to Ferrari? Even Corvettes with a Ligenfelter are called Ferrari killers. Ferrari is the benchmark by which all others feel they must out do. That pretty much shows who is top dog. I don't see anybody worried about or gunning for the Detroit Tigers, or for the British crowd, Crystal Palace. When was the last time someone said, "wow, do you think that Williams can compete with Minardi today?" I also don't think that Luca loses any sleep over Aston Martin or Porsche. Why? Because at the end of the day, when he picks up a review of one of his competitors, they all say "Compared to the Ferrari........" | ||
| Clax (Clax)
Junior Member Username: Clax Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek, I'm not sure exactly how I got "schooled". Because Allan says so, you believe him? Ferrari 360 purchased 9 months ago at MSRP with no wait? Riiiight. You can believe him if you like. I don't. No schooling needed. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5585 Registered: 12-2000 |
A stock Mustang against a stock 360 with equal drivers would not be equal. If you don't understand that or how to get to that conclusion, then you don't have the smarts to make it even worth a conversation now. | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 272 Registered: 4-2003 |
WELL SAID ERNIE! James, as usual, your posts is articulate and well thought out. I DO remember seeing David the first time...thought he needed some clothes but what do I know. LOL Thanks for your thoughts. David, YES to Blondes, Brunnettes and all others! Perhaps that's why I find my heart open to all of God's creatures. Porsches, Ferraris, Alfas etc, all welcome with open arms. Rob, when I used to go regularly to the track events a few years ago, equally well-driven Ferraris were consistently beaten by slightly modified Mustangs (!), Porsches etc at Mosport and Shannonville. The drivers were often instructors or regional racers. Not folklore, fact. I saw with my own 4 eyes. I had just bought a Mustang with some light mods because I was fascinated with a car that could be: 1)Driven daily and street legal 2)Driven to the tracks, change the tires and be spanked right away. 3)Driven home without any worries of mechanics, trailors etc. 4)Parts are cheap so racing would not be too expensive 5)If I crashed, I could write off the whole thing and not be bankrupt. Loved that car. Finally ended up with Brembo brakes, 255/40/17s with R1s, aluminium heads before my wife said "I'm pregnant" So much for all that. Love this board. I love the passion we have for cars, and because of that, I continue to want the manufacturers to improve and be better. BEST if possible. Taek, though we've never met, I feel that we have similar outlooks in life. look forward to meeting you one day. Always enjoy your reasoned, yet impassioned posts. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 754 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ferrari North America, and Ferrari SPA, I hope you guys are reading this. "Us" owners are telling you what we want, but we are arguing about it among ourselves. In a nut shell, we love the make, history, style, performace, exclusiveness. What we hate is shitty build quality, and extreme high prices for crap parts, and services. Especially in the UNITED STATES your biggest customer. Quit RIPPING US OFF! Thats all we really want. Thank You | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 445 Registered: 3-2002 |
One thing is for sure: Lamborghini has a little bit more than flash. Did they not take some of the best and brightest from Ferrari in the early - mid 1960's ? They had two cams per bank on street GT cars before Ferrari. They strive to keep the weight down on their cars. I am sure that I can go on. I do not want to put people to sleep with all the outstanding accolades the cars have. This also includes design. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5579 Registered: 12-2000 |
Adrian, a Ferrari can still be the best overall, even if it has less HP. That's my point. I'll get a 1,500 HP Can Am car if I want the fastest sports car on the track. I'll get a Lamborghini if I want the flashiest car on the street. I'll get a Honda Civic if I want the most reliable car. I'll get a pro street car if I want 8 second dragster. I'll buy a truck if I want to haul stuff. IMHO Ferrari offers the best all around of the qualities I love. Allan's NSHO (Not So Humble Opinion ) is for the Lamborghini, but I don't think he is looking at the complete picture, he's looking for just power and flash. He doesn't drive on the track or care so much for the other qualities. That's fine. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 701 Registered: 11-2002 |
Taek, Yep agree Porsche has probably now passed Alfa Romeo as the most winning manufacturer, but one of the things I love Alfa Romeo for is that racing is in their blood ... infact even though Alfa Romeo may no longer race in F1, Le Mans, and thus at the top level ... they cannot help themselves and are racing something somwhere , and if you go to an Alfa Romeo car club meeting anywhere in the world ... somebody will have resently raced his car or is about to, and that is what the backbone of the club really is about. Anyway returning to the current debate, regarding Ferraris future. I have always said (infact there will be old posts on this site somewhere) that trying to be the top dog (er, supercar) is pointless as 5 weeks later somebody will raise the bar. This is the battle that Lamborgini find themselves in, and personally Ferrari having more racing intents removes them from this pointless exercise. Thus I am at a loss to why Ferrari built the Enzo ... Lamborgini DO have, to their credit, the exotic-ness of Italian supercars ... that Porsche and others cannot quite match, and Audi better be careful not to remove that. In the end if you buy a Ferrari, Lamborgini, Ducati or MV you are buying a machine where the designers have performance FIRST, and quality and other things come way second. And this is how it should be. Note: when I say performance, I do not mean that they are the fastest, but that the overall driving package provides the best performance for the driver/rider. This is how the Italians think/work, and to put quality first would just be un-Italian. Toyota make the BEST cars as transport devices because they put starting first time, reliability, long service intervals FIRST. Driving experience comes further down on the list. Can you have both. Actually I do not think you can, because by the very nature of reliability requires that things are designed OVER strong and past what is required, that inturn means you have heavier components that either reduce the power output per litre, or slow the steering or something. Note: I am not defending building crap, just that will never put the effort into switch gear, etc. Thus if you want the best finish most reliable car, DO NOT buy anything Italian, as due to their passion and love with the automobile, the feelings delivered to the driver are what they build a car for ... not for starting first time, and 100,000 kms service intervals. Porsche probably get closer than anybody else with making the perfect car ... but then you will read here of owners who have owned Porsches and then tried Ferraris, and have been swept into the Ferrari world due to the extra involvement of the Italian car. Pete | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 124 Registered: 3-2003 |
Taek - you make a lot of good points. When I say you that one is a Porsche guy, it doesn't limit one to a single marque. I am a Porsche guy and a Ferrari guy. They are my 2 favorites. I do think that there is a big difference between Porsche and Ferrari that makes it difficult to compare the two. Most people use their Porsche's as daily drivers whereas most F-car owners dont. F-cars are not as reliable and are much more expensive to own and operate (sweeping generalizations of course). They are not going to be produced in the same numbers as Porsche. You make fit and finish your number two criteria and that is fine. I still maintain we all vote with our wallet. Buy according to your own criteria - I am just saying that the Enzo, F50 etc., buyers dont typically list that as a high up criteria. They are typically not running down to the video store in the Enzo. These ultra-exotics are built for different purposes. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2039 Registered: 10-2002 |
Adrian Nothing Allan says stings. Allan has great passion for Lambo's. My issues with Allan have nothing to do with how he feels about Ferrari's. I've stated those issues and he's stated how he feels about me and neither of us take any of this on a personal level. I agree with many of the points Allan has made and he admits old race cars don't interest him and the edgier design of Lambo's and Pagani's do which while it's not my thing I believe he's coming from the heart about his love of these type of cars which is all I really care about. As far as the Emperor having no clothes neither does "David" but when you walk down that long hall in Florence and look up at him you realize that he was touched by the hand of God. When I look at the curves of my P4 I feel the same way. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1503 Registered: 11-2002 |
David, I'm not a Porsche guy, first of all. I don't like to limit myself to a single marque, no matter how great it is. Is Porsche my favorite marque? Sometimes, but that's like picking a favorite child or sibling. I like almost all marques of cars for different reasons. Not saying that the marque is bad. I have tremendous respect for them. They're right up there with Ferrari in my book, when it comes to marques that stir the soul. I just tend to stick up for them a lot because there are some who look at it as a run-of-the-mill car simply because of production figures. One of the reasons why Ferrari is so successful in keeping everybody wanting one is that they constantly and purposely underproduce. Enzo has been known to say "figure out how many want it, and make 1 less". Brilliant, if you ask me. But, should there be as many 360s as there are Carreras you'd realize how harsh the public would be with the cars (fit and finish inclusive). While you didn't buy them for fit and finish, I made that the second in a short list of criteria. Porsche is the marque with the highest resale value for a reason. If fit and finish, reliability and all that hadn't been an issue there would be a classic car in my garage right now. There is bound to be somebody who is going to pay a lot over sticker simply because it's the best Ferrari on the road right now. You're right in that some won't care for fit and finish, but then they won't drive it near as much as they should either. I know someone who wants an Enzo, but can't afford it. Mind you, he would be able to afford it at close to MSRP. When I ask him what it is about it that he wants he tells me..."It's the best Ferrari out there man, the coolest one out there!" He has never seen one in person. If I did have an Enzo, it would share daily driving duties and I would probably clock 20k miles the first year. Cheers | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 123 Registered: 3-2003 |
Adrian - Allan is not wrong. He happens to like Lambo's and most people on this site happen to like Ferrari's. Some guys like blondes - other like brunettes. You go to a Jag site, Porsche site, or an AM site, I am sure you will get yet a different perspective. I also agree that we would like Ferrari's to be the best at every aspect, however that is not likely to happen. We would also like them to be more reliable and have better build quality. But to me there is something about them like no other marque. It is more than HP, 0-60 times, reliability, etc. They stir me more than any other. You look at a Koennigseg (sp) or a Pagani - they are bad-ass and I would take one in a heart beat. But they dont stir like an Enzo does. The Lambo is nice too but it doesn't stir to the same extent that a Ferrari does. | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 122 Registered: 3-2003 |
"David, I agree that Enzo buyer's won't be buy one because of the fit and finish. Nevertheless, some do expect it. " Taek - It obviously didn't make a great deal of difference to the 349/399 Enzo owners that were lucky enough to be able to order one and buy one at sticker. Now the car is selling for at least 200K+ over sticker - again an indication that fit and finish are not a big factor in this regard. Taek you are a Porsche guy. I have myself owned several. I certainly did not buy them for their fit and finish. Any $30K BMW, Mercedes, Lexus etc. will blow them away in this regard. But I think a 996TT at $120K is great value and a great car - despite its inferior interior. A CL55 at a similar price range is in a different league when you compare interiors, fit and finish. | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 271 Registered: 4-2003 |
P.S. Taek, no, you are not crazy. I love vintage for similar reasons. btw, Where can I get those COOL emoticons?!!! | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 270 Registered: 4-2003 |
David and James, please don't mistake criticism for anything other than what it is. My points were simply a reflection of what I believe, and mirroring many others who have voiced the same. Yes, Allan Lambo is many things, but that doesn't exclude the fact that if he were wrong, why does it sting? Of course things evolve. Of course there are more powerful cars today than the 360. That's not the point. The point is that the replacement is imminent, and the competition not only is catching up, it now resets most of the rules! Don't we all want Ferraris to win? Don't we all want Ferraris to be the fastest, brake the best, corner the hardest, look the sexiest? Let me relay a true story. A really good friend of mine who is intimately involved with the Canadian Ferrari scene often told me that Ferrari owners would bi*ch and complain of the terrible service, costs and attitudes of the dealer. A couple of owners come to mind. Their cars had been constantly returned to the dealer with the same problem only to have the dealer repair something else, charge for it, and the symptom is still there. Yet. When these same owners are displaying their cars, driving them on the roads and people ask about them, magically, these cars are wonderful. All is forgotten. All is forgiven. Perhaps this is our disconnect, our rationalization for spending so much money, and not being willing to admit the emperor has no clothes! Perhaps this is the ingredient you are talking about, James. I know I have been seduced by it. All I am saying is that Ferrari CAN and SHOULD do better. I'll end this participation with an observation. Having lived in Canada for over 20 years, one of the ongoing debates here is how Canada is different from the USA. Many Canadians will smugly answer that Canadians are more polite, more tolerant, less insular etc. Most of these responses tend to be subjective. What, however, is not subjective, is that Americans AIM HIGHER. You do things, dream and achieve on a scale that NO OTHER COUNTRY OR CULTURE has ever done. More often than not, Canadians are satisfied with mediocrity. Don't settle now. Flame away. And for my fellow Canadians, I am the one charter member still hoping we will put a flag in every home, finally institute true bilingualism and say the pledge publicly every morning. Sometimes, knowing inside that you love Canada is not enough. Like your loved ones, they need to hear it, as much for them as for yourself. If you are a Canadian, you'll understand what I mean. Peace | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1498 Registered: 11-2002 |
David, I agree that Enzo buyer's won't be buy one because of the fit and finish. Nevertheless, some do expect it. Ultimately, Porsches are hand made, and have excellent fit and finish (albeit with cheap plastic bits here and there). Adrian, >>What if Ferrari continues to, as you point out, ignore the customer? What if, in addition, they stopped winning? Would the customers still be avid fans? Would they continue to buy their road cars knowing that they were not competitive, expensive, and the racing arm was unsuccessful? << With reliability problems, growing competition, and a faltering parent company Ferrari is in a very delicate situation. I have heard that Fiat is going to drastically reduce F1 budgetting to make matters worse. Somehow I feel that they will come out OK though. >>Guys, let's not let Ferrari off the hook so easily. We all know owners who have privately among ourselves bitched about the lousy service at dealers, the lousy and inconsistent QC of the cars etc.<< Another really good point Adrian. Unfortunately I am not a Ferrari owner. Nevertheless I have known many of them well in my lifetime and have met countless more. It is definitely accurate though that the majority has been unhappy with the build quality in their cars but deal with them because they are Ferraris. I'm a different ball of wax altogether. I have been very disappointed with the slew of modern exotica out there. And like some have said in this post...I'm just not going to buy until I find one that fits. I've tried two different poles and although happy, I'm not sure I got my money's worth in either situation. I feel the nicest road cars in the world are veteran cars. Then again, I'm looking to restore classics and use them as daily drivers, so I'm not exactly "all there"...  Cheers | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 120 Registered: 3-2003 |
Everyone seems to be getting concerned because Lamborghini is about to come out with a 500HP car. Whoopee. Time marches on - technology improves. Mercedes has a 500HP sedan the S55 that is faster than the 360 (0-60). Who cares. The 360 came out in 1999 and at the time it kicked butt - still does. However, now it is not the fastest car nor does it have the most HP. If you gave me a choice between a S55, an E55, a Viper, a 996TT or a 360 right this second, I would take the 360. I know they are all different cars, some even sedans - however the 360 has the lowest HP of all and I would still take it. My choice. Time marches on. When the BMW M5 came out in the late 90's with 400HP, it was bad-ass with unheard of HP. Now the Audi and the E55 in its class have more. That is technological advancement. The next M5 will have lots of Hp and will likely leapfrog yet again. However, not everyone buys a car because of its HP ratings or 0-60 times. I will take a 360 over an E55 even though the later will be quicker to 60MPH and has more HP. Sure you want a Ferrari to be really fast - if it were the fastest even better - but that's not the allure. The Ford GT will do 0-60 in 3.9 seconds - give me the 360 or the 550 with less HP any day of the week. I still love the GT. Would take James G.'s GT40 over anything! James Lee - this has nothing to do with how much money you have or dont have. You make some good points but for the most part are missing the boat. People dont buy an Enzo or an F50 for the comfort, fit or finish. A $40,000 Lexus has a better finish, is quieter and has a better radio. Dont buy an Enzo if that is what you want. Look at the inside of an F40 or an F50 - not much there. That's not what people are looking for who buy these cars. If you want total reliability but an M5, buy a Mercedes, buy a Lexus - dont buy a Ferrari. I am not saying that this is a good thing about Ferrari - but it is what it is. They are what they are - handmade, addictive, alluring, seductive, and expensive to buy and run. If they aren't for you or you want more HP or better CF weave = then dont buy one. Ultimately customers vote with their wallets. And to this day you cannot just walk in to a dealer and buy a 360 at sticker (its getting closer but this is 4 years after the car was introduced - nothing comes close to a Ferrari in this regard). I love competition. Companies that cater to their customers and shareholders have to keep inovating and making superior products. James G.'s point. If Ferrari doesn't improve the 360, then people will buy the Gallardo, the AM, the GT2 instead of it. That will hurt the Company, so you better believe it - that at some point there will be a better 360. If it had 460HP, chances are I would still prefer it to the Gallardo, the GT, the Viper - all have more HP. Why would I prefer it - I am not 100% sure. Its a Ferrari after all. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2037 Registered: 10-2002 |
Adrian I think so long as Ferrari's continue to have a piece of the magic that turns them from another hunk of metal(or carbon fiber) into something somehow a bit more they'll be ok. Ferrari does care what you think. I've been driving them for 33 years. The defroster on my 275GTB was my hand. My TR got me home in 18 inches of snow and today a pretty British voice directed me effortlessly to my daughters horse show in the back woods while I listened to Mark Knophoffler on a CD as the AC kept me cool at 68f in my Maser. I've written to Mr. Ferrari. I written to Luca. If you have a problem write them. They'll listen and I've found they do want to get things right. Some people look at a block of Marble 45 feet by 10 feet and see a block of Marble. Others see "David". Mr. Ferrari like Michangelo saw "David". Kenneth Very glad to hear it. Gambai! (sp? "Cheers!") | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 269 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well said, James. It never fails to amaze me with your passion for racing. I admire anyone that has passion for anything they do, for passion is one of the key ingredients to a fulfilling life. Yet... What if Ferrari continues to, as you point out, ignore the customer? What if, in addition, they stopped winning? Would the customers still be avid fans? Would they continue to buy their road cars knowing that they were not competitive, expensive, and the racing arm was unsuccessful? Passion, perceived performance advantage and image sells cars. Ferrari should work on increasing the potential advantage on number 2. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 443 Registered: 10-2002 |
Napolis, I greatly enjoy reading your posts, and I admire your passion behind them. Keep up the good show. So here is a distant applause for you from the Hong Kong SAR (now free of SARS). | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 268 Registered: 4-2003 |
Rob, I agree about pure HP. Ferrari has never been about pure dragging. But why not define the best at all levels it offers a product? Why should a Ferrari not stand alone, obviously, clearly, head and shoulders above all comers? Why should Ferrari not DEFINE the BEST? Indeed, why should fans and owners make excuses? Is that not the ultimate Ferrari dream? Rob, imagine a car you can drive on the track, clearly expensive, but one that given equal driving skill, you easily walk away from all others. No worries from Porsche, Lambo, TVR etc. Indeed, ironically, the ultimate poser's car. Maybe Ferrari shouldn't try so hard after all... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2035 Registered: 10-2002 |
James "People also pay huge sums for 250LM's and BB LMs even though both were outclassed when they originally competed." You ever go racing? You ever put an axe to the hood of a 250GTO to get more air flo so the sucker could finish? You ever put a screwdriver through a water temp gauge so the driver watching it instead of trying to win would go back out? You ever look at the POS Ford dropped at Shelbys door step and tweak and fix it until it went on to win LeMans? The original GT40 were widowmakers. Racing is about getting it right. 512BBlm's were never SPA race cars they were run quite unsuccessfully by privateers. Today they, compared to a 250LM are quite reasonable. The 250 LM BTW did go on to win LeMans (1 OA) It took a while to sort them? It's taking Toyota a bit of time to get sorted in F1. Racing is a lot more difficult that those who have never done it realize. You don't like Ferrari tic tacs? Don't buy them. You don't like the Boxter or Cayanne? Don't buy one. The fact that people who own co's want to do what they want to do until their decisions work or bring down the house is simply the way it is. CF weave matters to you it doesn't to them. Ferrari is like the court in Kafka's "The Trial" It receives you when you come and it dismisses you when you go. This hasn't anything to do with $. It has to do with passion. Hugh and I like race cars. Allan likes Lambo's. I respect anyone who is passionate about any car. But feeling that Ferrari should do what you want them to do is a little silly. They never have and they never will. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5576 Registered: 12-2000 |
I think a pure HP war is ridiculous, so unlike most people on the board, I think Ferrari understands that too. Who cares if there is a 50 to 100 hp difference in cars? Yes, practical uses for a car with 200 hp over a car with 100 or even a car with 400 over 200, but why in the heck does anyone need 600+ hp on the street? I don't want Ferrari to play the hp game and luckily they don't. I do want a good handling (not too much oversteer for the street), good brakes, good hp (400), beautifully designed, and keeping in touch with it's soul and heritage. There will always be something more extreme. Ferrari is not about being extreme, it's about being Ferrari. For going to extremes I will keep it on the track. | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 267 Registered: 4-2003 |
James, for what it's worth, I happen to agree with a lot of what you said. Companies that grow complacent are doomed to fail. Even Ferrari. If legend is true, the NSX did cause Ferrari to make changes for the better. For many enthusiasts, the history, legend and tradition are major reasons they buy the brand. For others, and I suspect myself included, the reasons are different. I love Ferrari because of the beautiful lines. I know very little of the racing heritage, couldn't care less about what Mr. Ferrari may or not have said (with all due respect to parties offended), and certainly am a huge fan of those that wish Ferrari continues to make STATE of the Art cars for fans. Enzos aside, why do we have to constantly "apologize" that Ferraris are not drag cars, that they are "balanced", somehow insinuating that others are not and thus our rules are better? Who made us god? If 0-60/100 times are not important, why bring the Enzo into the discusison at all? Guys, let's not let Ferrari off the hook so easily. We all know owners who have privately among ourselves bitched about the lousy service at dealers, the lousy and inconsistent QC of the cars etc. Let's be REALLY honest with ourselves...wouldn't you WANT to have a car that COULD BLOW the Viper/Corvette etc in a drag, then corner and dust them COMPLETELY? By the way, insert any make of choice. Why should this be so much to ask for the asking price. Again, don't just respond reactively in a knee jerk fashion. Why are we settling for less and making excuses? | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3254 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ferrari better answer big. 400hp is not nearly enough anymore. Will 460hp be enough? Here's one more car that could possibly outperform the 360. Its the Audi RSR. Based on their success racing the R8, this car should be one hell of a car. Its based on the gallardo.  | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1442 Registered: 12-2001 |
I don't know that Ferrari's arrogance or even its arguable lack of performance compared with the competition for its entry level cars will make any real difference in the marketplace. As to the overall quality of the Enzo, these cars are not bought on the basis of a rational comparsion with the competition; if they were, Allan might even be right that the Murcie offers enough for less than half the price. But that's not why people buy them, whether its the limited production flagship or the production cars. Ferrari has been at this game a long time. I don't know that their road cars were ever really competitive with the competition, for the price. And even when they were admittedly below par performancewise (eg the injected 2 valve 308) or substandard in finish (early 348), i don't know that it affected the then current market (eg did people buy the NSX or Porsche at the time because of this, i doubt it) or the long term market (308 GT_i are still bought, sold and cherished everyday and 348s have, i think, suprising held value). Somehow, even though Enzo is long gone, the company have managed to retain not only the aura of exclusivity, but a true insular attitude toward the customer. Even at fairly high levels at FNA, it is my impression that they can ask and hope for the best, but that telling the guys in Italy what to do is wishful thinking. In this respect, I think Ferrari carries on its tradition quite well. | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2003 |
I am surprised this turns so personal and I am getting a bit confused. Lambo and Bentley are crap because they're owned by VW but Ferrari's ok because it's owned by a considerably sicker Fiat (with GM lurking in the background)? So at risk of it all getting silly I'll bow out of this thread and apologise to Napolis. When I start getting told that Ferrari Tic Tacs or any other merchandising are a good idea because some investors can make an extra buck out of the name, I wonder. So some bankers are making lots of money out of their Ferrari shareholding, that's nice. Me, I'm wondering how they can price a replacement bonnet for my mates '95 456 at exactly a quarter of what he paid for the whole car 6 months ago. And it's carbon fibre and the weave is utter sh*t..... Believe it or not there are some people out there who have scraped together enough to finally buy a Ferrari and they are getting totally f**ked on reliability, build quality and parts prices and it sucks. Sure Lambo was sick so spares are hard to come by and expensive for anything preVW, but Ferrari? As Rob Lay has mentioned a lot of good people have put together this forum and I am getting it rammed down my throat that I don't have the money to be worth an opinion. It's been fun, it wasn't my intent to hijack the thread and I am sure there is the odd person here who sees an alternative view. BTW After the Brits complained about the 575's handling (on UK roads) the factory launched the Fiorano kit so maybe, just maybe, a little criticism isn't such a bad thing. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2032 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek As Mr. Ferrari said to Alberto (The person who with Bob Wallace rebuilt my P4 motor) about the last road car he was involved in:" I don't care if the panels are straight. I dont care if the car has electric windows,(BTW that's why the Enzo has roll up windows), but when he steps on the acelerator I want him to shi t his pants." James Jenks, Brock, David E.Davis, Woodrow, Bernstien, are/were journalists this guy is a wank er. Manu covered his problem. Ferrari running scared? I don't think so. The spin off of this Co. is going to be a feeding frenzy. Feeling as you do I guess you won't be putting in for some. Lambo? Bugattti? Bentley? WTF are these now but marketing baubles for VW? Badge it as an Audi, badge it as a Bentley. Before too long one with a Lambo badge will win LeMans. Will this car have anything to do with Allan's Lambos? I think not. The RR/Bentley dic k measuring contest between VW/BMW was the biggest squandering of shareholders money since Ford paid 5 Billion for the Cat from Coventry. Little boys buying dead but famous names. Ferrari tic/tacs why do you think Leman Bros owns so much of Ferrari. They like owning CO's that unlike dot bombs use their assets to make a profit. When my family and I were one of the major shareholders of the Co that owned Lambo we found that the licencing rev from tee shirts was worth more than making Diablo's that no one want to pay for. Sad but true. You think VW's motives are purer? It's real simple. Vote with your dollar. You care about CF weave patterns don't buy an Enzo. You don't think a P4 is a great car when my great grandchildren auction mine off to donate to "Vegans R us" don't bid. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1494 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sorry Mark, I was adding my experience to the Enzo build quality issue that has creeped into the thread. Looks like the thread bifurcated somewhere along the line... This would make for an interesting thread on it's own, actually... Manu, I think you made a good implied point. If journalists are crying about interior trim quality of carbon fiber weave I would take it as a semi compliment, were I Ferrari. They have obviously found no other fault with the car and are grasping at anything. Nevertheless, there is a point to be made in the journo's favor. How DO you justify crap finish of ANY kind on a 700k USD car?! Cheers | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 605 Registered: 5-2002 |
What the heck has any of this got to do with the 360 replacement getting 460 hp....... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1490 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just got second hand feedback from an Enzo owner. Excited at the prospect of seeing one this coming Monday or Tuesday, I called up some friends and came up with an Enzo owner. Having this thread in mind and having seen first hand the poor aesthetic quality of the Stradale carbon fiber I asked him about his car... His responses to various questions were simple. When he took receipt of the car he was excited and just wanted to drive and be left alone. Now that he has had time to look at it, "you can tell it was built by hand...and that's not a particularly good thing [in this case]". Carbon work was "disappointing". Trim and panel fit, however, was "very good". Drive was "hehehehe, tell [your friend] he should come visit". J Lee, I agree that >>money does not make a great Ferrari<< unfortunately though, great Ferraris fetch great money, and that is unavoidable. My take on the Enzo (DISCLAIMER: I have not driven it...yet. Nor have I seen it in person...yet) is that being Ferrari's newest supercar it is bound to get ooos and aaaahs from the general public even if the interior is falling apart. Herein lies the problem. When these cars go for big bucks and exclusivity, they cater to someone who is accustomed to a higher level of quality than most. When they receive their cars the reaction seems to be (based on my only owner experience above) that they are appalled with build qquality but feel compelled to defend the car. Nobody likes to admit they got suckered into buying a piece of crap. And how can the flagship Ferrari possibly be a piece of crap? Well in short it isn't, but from the owner I spoke to..."for the money they're fetching now, it is". In closing, I'd like to add that I'd take one even if it was pink with flourescent green polka dots on it with cardboard substituting carbon fiber trim pieces. Also keep in mind that for the things that matter (to me, at least) the Enzo does not disappoint, instead, it breaks new ground. Trust me I was shocked at the negative reaction from this particular owner. I'll keep digging and try to get other opinions. OK, I got some body armor on, but keep in mind...DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!  Cheers | ||
| RS Biomedical (Rsbiomedical)
New member Username: Rsbiomedical Post Number: 47 Registered: 9-2001 |
"Rs Biomedical,we understand now. You like dark haired men and 60's Ferrari's. Thats cool, not my cup of tea, but whatever floats your boat! Ill take a hot blonde and Lambo anyday." Very mature, NOT!!! I think you helped make everyones point. | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 781 Registered: 2-2002 |
James Lee/NAPOLIS - I PARTIALLY agress with both of you... In Ferrari I see signs of corporate arrogance. Their entire range is under threat - new Lamborghini, Aston, Porsche, (and even Mercedes) should have them worried... Even the brand is now under threat. The prancing horse is being over-used. Ferrari should be very very careful about their brand name but to be honest when you see the Ferrari logo on a barbie model things have gone too far..... In the meantime warranty stances, dealer attitude and aftersales quality goes from bad to worse, the way in which Ferrari give different treatment to customers (in line with how prolific the customer is etc...) ITS ALL BAD. For all of these things Ferrari will either correct their problems or pay a big price. I believe Ferrari are already making efforts to come round... but they MUST stop devaluing the brand by putting the prancing horse EVERYWHERE. However very little of this sullies the reputation of the great cars that had made the reputation in the 1st place. Whether a GTO or LM was competitive during it's time is largely irrelevant.... The reason they are soo beloved, and worth soo much is because they are the purest expression of a largely single mans (Enzos) idea of ULTIMATE automotive performance during their respective eras....... In this area they are unmatched.. (perhaps the F40 is that pure). One final point - do not be niave enough to give credence to the absolute BULLSH!T that the idiotic journalists write. They take possession of the car for 1 day and have to summarise an ownership experience for potential buyers or fill in the dreamers who can never afford one. THEY HAVE NO IDEA. No car is beyond criticism (especially not one that costs almost $700,000) but I hate the babble journos talk about marginal differences in pointless and inane aspects of a car. At the end of the day, they need to REPORT something...... A relentless gush of praise is pretty boring and does not make for interesting motoring journalism and that makes for poor magazine sales.... And at the end of the day WHO CARES what they think - I don't buy a car for them ??? Do you? When an Enzo owner tells me that the finish on his car is poor, I'll listen. Until then, the jounalists can go back to test driving diesel people carriers...... | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2003 |
Napolis, I can see we disagree here. And no he wasn't a w*nker, just a writer doing his job. No doubt if the SLR or Bugatti have similar faults they will also get mentioned. Every Magazine on the shelf (well at least 5) at my local store talks about the cars that are about to leave Ferrari for dead. The company can rely on supporters like yourself, or it can attempt to compete. Money ($10 million) does not make a great Ferrari. People also pay huge sums for 250LM's and BB LMs even though both were outclassed when they originally competed. And lets not talk about the Can Am effort. And finally, see how well the Prodrive 550s are doing in the GT class. A private backer put up the rumoured 20 million because he wanted to see Ferrari competitive again in GT racing. This was inspite of Ferrari who refused to provide a single drawing or piece of design information. Instead Prodrive purchased two second hand 550s and stripped them down to the last nut and bolt. So you have a car winning on the track that actually looks like something from the showroom and as far as Ferrai are concerned that's a very bad thing. And finally, finally when I get off the plane at Heathrow and go past the terminal 1 tube there is that Official Ferrari store selling merchandising. Watches, bicycles, plates, socks, underwear, TicTacs, you name it - if they can stick a prancing horse on it, call it official and mark it up 700% it is there. Make it stop. Much like the crap finish in the Enzo, explain how any of this is a sign Ferrari is looking good for the next 5 years. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 559 Registered: 6-2002 |
Greg- PCCBs at $8-10k seem DIRT cheap compared to what Ferrari is asking for similar (though after oogleing both up close, I think Ferrari actually has a better mounting system) at $25k reported replacement cost... Best! Ben. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 676 Registered: 6-2002 |
Rs Biomedical,we understand now. You like dark haired men and 60's Ferrari's. Thats cool, not my cup of tea, but whatever floats your boat! Ill take a hot blonde and Lambo anyday. | ||
| Greg (Teflon)
New member Username: Teflon Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2003 |
James Lee, Porsche debuted the PCCB about two years ago, and it was about a year and a half too early. The brakes didn't work properly when introduced to the market, they are ridiculously expensive and are only available on the CGT, Turbo, GT2 and GT3. That is hardly the paradigm Ferrari should follow w/their carbon brakes. Greg |