| Author | Message | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 484 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff B. you were right I was low on grease. BTW I hadn't cleaned any off yet. Here it is with new grease. Shipping the whole clutch FW assembly off tommorow for a rebuild. Should have it back on Sat.  Thanks to everyone for all of their help. It's nice having a little back-up. I'll let you know how it works out. My next thread will most likely be bleeding the hydraulic clutch on a 348. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 358 Registered: 7-2002 |
Fatty, Thanks for taking an interest: 1. I use the stock factory supplied Bosche sensors. In the "set-up" screeen for the MoTeC, they allow you to choose the sensors you have installed. I've checked mine, they match. This is NOT a fuel problem, (at least not mine), because I've long ago verified "no spark". Mine IS a sensor problem according to the MoTeC. I've been all through the diagnostics and it has consistently shown this error when it is having it's hot start issue. I need to change my clutch anyway- It's still the factory "paper" clutch, when I'm into the boost hard, I can spin it easily. Anyone installed a tilton racing clutch and flywheel? How will this effect the problem? This is what Bob Norwood recommends. I'll take his word for it! | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 324 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have been told by a Maranello mechanic that the rattling noise is from the clutch release bearing. When you put you clutch pedal down the noise goes away. I was told by a elderly Ferrari mechanic (nearly 40 years working with ferraris) in italy that you should always start the Ferrari with clutch pedal down and switch off with it down. Less strain on the clutch/Fly wheel assembly. Maybe a old wise tale who knows !!!!!!!?????????..... I had a Maserati Bi-Turbo with 15,000 miles on it and sold it with nealry 150,000 on it on the same clutch assembly. I was did the clutch thing as the old man said and still do. A mystery. I have a 348 Spyder now with nearly 35,000 miles on it. Still on the orginal factory clutch no rattling noises and no grease problem. I have done may trackdays etc and drive it all year round. I might be lucky. Touch wood no problems yet.... | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 482 Registered: 4-2003 |
Craig, Just did the seals on the shaft 500 miles back. Had fluid underneath the clutch housing cover plate. The problem started a lttle before this time and got worse. The seals were done in a shop. It seems that the oil that got into the FW came from this leak over time. Especially since I didn't notice the leak for a while since it was obstructed from coming through the ventilated cover plate by a feminine hygiene product. I was not very pleased, but apparently no harm done. I checked the gearbox oil level regularly and everything was within spec. Everything else on the car checked out OK. | ||
| Craig Nelson (Monza456)
New member Username: Monza456 Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2003 |
I always check them when replacing the clutch. I have also resealed them because they make more noise than usual. When you shut off the car. The rattling noises you hear when you shut off a 348 is the flywheel.. It is very common for the seals to leak gear oil into the flywheel. How do you plan on replacing the seals on the shaft? I cant imagine doing it without the factory tools? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 479 Registered: 4-2003 |
Craig, Thanks, what were the reasons for the flywheel repacking and resealing? Just bad oring or seal, gearbox oil leak at output shaft, or hot-start problem? Beautiful 456, what color is that? AWESOME! | ||
| Craig Nelson (Monza456)
New member Username: Monza456 Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2003 |
Vincent, I have rebuilt and resealed a few of the 348 flywheels and it's tough and messy to inject the grease after it's assembled. Pack it before you re-assemble it.. Good luck. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 477 Registered: 4-2003 |
Question: OTOH? definition please. I'm assuming it must stand for: special modena part that if you don't use your car will self destruct or at the very least need to be trailered to nearest F-service dept. But that would be: SMPTIYDUYCWSDOATVLNTBTTNFD. must be something else. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 475 Registered: 4-2003 |
>>OTOH the kluber comes in a can. It so happens that 1/2 a can is about 250grms. Is this lazy Ferrari coincidence? I bet shops never weighed the grease. I bet they stick 1/2 a can in there and close it up.<< I opened the grease can today. It is only half full to begin with. I weighed it and it weighs well over a kilogram. I don't really see how having too much grease can hurt, other than if you are using a grease nipple in place of the plug and want to avoid over pressurizing the flywheel with a grease gun. BB, I am not entirely convinced either, but it seems to have worked for other 348 owners. I am crossing my fingers a little bit, and in fact at one point I considered not opening up the FW, but when I found the problem with the clutch it seemed like it wouldn't hurt anything. And I like having the piece of mind. I have checked my service records and the car received new fuel pumps and tank about 15k miles ago. But if this continues I will move on to checking fuel delivery, starting with some of JRV's tips earlier, and I think the starter fluid trick is one I will use. Because what you really need is fuel and air. Without one of the other, well you're not going very far. the plastic parts in the FW looked intact and brand new, surprinsingly. They showed no signs of wear. JeffB, This has been very satisfying. I, somewhat perversely, look forward to going in the garage everyday and working on the car. It's broadened the Ferrari experience for me, it's been fun, and will be extrememly satisfying when I get back on the road knowing that I did what I could myself. I would have put everything back together today, and remounted the clutch to send and get rebuilt and balanced, but I'm going to wait till tommorow. While I'm at it I'm going to replace the 12 orings that seal the bolts, they are a little worn. Might as well do everything I can. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 278 Registered: 8-2002 |
To the Motec guy, What sensors are you running? If using stock but all to run the motec I am not convinced the FW vibration is your problem. In fact in may not be the original posters problem but could be one of many problems. There are many Fuel and eletrical degradations which can cause the hot/cold start issues. One thing that I have read No one try is to spray starter fluid in the airbox and try to start up when hot. If you get a start you probably don't have an FW problem but a fuel or electronics to the fuel system issue. Also I have know idea why Ferrari changes the amount of grease. I think that the plastic parts in the FW wear out and then rattle more with more clearance. Then since the guts are not available try to micky mouse the issue with a bigger glop of grease. OTOH the kluber comes in a can. It so happens that 1/2 a can is about 250grms. Is this lazy Ferrari coincidence? I bet shops never weighed the grease. I bet they stick 1/2 a can in there and close it up. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 357 Registered: 7-2002 |
Interesting Paul. Yes mine is motec, but it still uses the same hall effect bosch sensor as stock. I find it very interesting also that the vibration can have this pronounced of an effect. I've replaced the sensor before and can say that the rotor is mounted to the cam, which is held quite firmly in the heads, (of course). The heads are in turn the mounting location of the sensor itslf. So how som vibration could cause the sensor to ground or malfunction is curious indeed! I am begining to see though that when I push in the clutch, the car DOES start better! J | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 277 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jeff E, The only difference between hot and cold would be the viscosity of the grease. When cold, I would imagine even with a small amount of grease left in the flywheel. The internals would be held with what grease is there. When hot the grease would become less viscous and allow the internals to rattle about. As an engineer, I still find it amazing that the sensors are that susceptible to vibration on start up. I know your car uses the Motec unit and is different to stock, but how about trying to dampen the sensor mounting on your car? I was just looking at a manual of mine and it stated that the flywheel was to packed with 180g of grease, and then I found a latter bit of info that said 230g, then documentation of a TSB stating 280g! � Ferrari must have had problems to increase the quantity of grease by quite a significant amount. I wonder if Dr Ferrari is about and could comment? Paul | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 355 Registered: 7-2002 |
Excellent post, Vincent. We'll be watching. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 336 Registered: 12-2002 |
Very cool, Vincent! To me, it looks like your flywheel was way low on grease, unless you had already cleaned up some of it. As I stated below, I didn't use the filler plugs at all, I weighed the grease out on a postal scale and neatly spread it around inside with a popsicle stick. I found it useful to use wooden dowels through the bolt holes to keep everything in position while it was going back together. You should have it back together soon, and I just know that your hot start problem will be a thing of the past! And it's very satisfying to do the job yourself, right? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 468 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well, the Flywheel is apart and cleaned! Really not that bad of a job. Make sure you have brake cleaning fluid and lots of shop rags, a parts brush won't hurt. the whole assembly is much clearer to me now. The grease dampens the movement of the springs against the plastic pieces. All the pieces were intact, but the grease clearly had gear oil in it from the lead I had at the outputshaft. you can tell this by the grey color, should be white. What is the best way to put the grease back? To spread it in before reassembly, or to inject in after reassembly?     Before and After. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 354 Registered: 7-2002 |
Good post, Vincent. Keep me posted. I'll be watching. Here's one point that is still a mystery to me: Why does the lack of grease cause the vibration to be fatal for the start ONLY WHEN IT'S HOT? Could someone please explain? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 458 Registered: 4-2003 |
Good to know Jeff, thanks. I'm going to try and make it to FoSFO to have them remove the 4-pin nut. I just haven't had time to make the tool. I hope they'll help me out, I've talked to the parts guy about the grease, very friendly. Maybe they'll even split it while I'm there. I'll repack the FW, or have it done at the shop. Then reassemble FW with clutch and send off for rebuild and balance. Hope to be back on the road soon.  Then I'll have to learn how to bleed the clutch slave cylinder. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 332 Registered: 12-2002 |
If Rob's comment about never deleting anything from the archives was a response to my comment about my having pix erased from memory, I'm sorry about the confusion, I mean that I erased them from the memory in MY computer, I never posted more than the one picture of my flywheel here. Sounds to me like you're making pretty good progress, it just turned out to be a bigger job than expected. I checked a number of places to see if I could find another source for Kluber grease, and came up empty, so I bought it from the dealer. I think I read here in one of the posts that someone had used grease from West Marine. I checked every kind of grease in their store and their catalog, and didn't find anything compatible. Since repacking my flywheel, my 348 has never failed to start easily, hot or cold. Generally takes no more than 1 second cranking. Prior to the flywheel job, it would sometimes take ten tries before it would fire. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 453 Registered: 4-2003 |
It all seems to make more and more sense now. Great observation Paul. I've been a little busy, but I'm still planning on the spacers. If any of you have seen my 348 clutch thread, you have noticed that one of the springs on my central PP is broken off. This is most likely a result of my flywheel being unbalanced, and has led to some accelerated clutch wear. I have found someone to rebuild the clutch, and resurface the discs. Has anyone ever had this problem or done this? It seems straight forward to me, and I've shown my PPs to a few mechanics who have told that they look just fine. Jeff B. I am going to split the flywheel and check the grease, clean, and repack. The throwout bearing seals have been replaced recently, but the flywheel wasn't checked at that time. I think the flywheel should always be checked if you've had throwout bearings seals go, since apparently, if I'm following this correctly the oil can get into the flywheel. My problem, since the flywheel and housing are clean, may be like Jeff's 348TT: that I have no grease left. Apparently the vibration of the imbalanced flywheel will cause the phase sensor problem, but when you add some mass it helps the dampening, the sensor will pick on TDC on #1 and the car will start. Rob, I searched for "Flywheel" amongst other things and have probably looked through over 75 threads on this topic. I think I would have found the picture. If I'm the one who splits it open I will post the pics. I still hope to do a section on removing your clutch and flywheel for inspection/replacement, and putting it back in. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 352 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks guys, for the input. My start problem has some definite traits. always when it is hot; NEVER when it's cold. Sometimes pushing in the clutch helps, sometimes, not. No leaks, drips or signs of grease anywhere. Perhaps it's been going on so long that there isn't any grease left! Glad to hear England's been dry. Beautiful 348 Paul! Jeff | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5064 Registered: 12-2000 |
BTW, I've never deleted anything on FerrariChat.com from archives. Every post and pic since 11/27/2000 is still around somewhere. Now with 200k messages I'm not saying it's easy to find what you want.  | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 266 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jeff E We had a real scorcher of a day here today so I though I would take the 348 out for a spin � got her running up to temperature, stopped for 5 mins, tried to start and she just span (did this for about 5 seconds). Put her into first gear & turned the key, and she started within a second. Had another run about for � hour and took her back home. This time I shut the engine off and took one of the leads off the coil. Got my other half to turn the key � No spark. Asked her to put it into 1st and keep the clutch down � then turned the key � Fired up straight away. Interesting!! Paul | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 698 Registered: 4-2002 |
I can confirm that I suffered the dreaded dual mass flywheel failure, complete with copious amounts of grey* silicone grease all around the bell housing in my 95 F355. Prior to noticing the grease comming out fo the bell housing vent, I had a minor cold and hot starting problem**. After putting the DMFW back right, the starting is better. Note this is on an F355 with single plate clutch and F355 electronics. In addition, I never had a failure to start, and never had to key the starter more than twice. * The original grease is white, it turns grey as tiny amounts of gearbox oil wicks past a seal and into the grease. **Normally it would take 0.3 seconds to start (i.e. almost immediately). With the DMFW in crappy condition it might take 1.3 seconds to start (i.e. nothing to really worry about, but noticibly different than before). | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 351 Registered: 7-2002 |
Gents, I've been following the thread. My 348 TT also has a hot start issue; it's the same, but different. I get no clunking or knocking noise on shut down. I don't notice any unusual vibration on startup or shut down. However, I have found that, when hot, if I push in the clutch and then start, I have better luck. Sometimes it won't happen for a week. Sometimes it happens every time I drive the car! I have confirmed via Motec diagnostics, it is a sync sensor error, (IE phase sensor) according to the Motec help screen. I can also confirm, that I am getting no spark. Sometimes I've had to let it cool off for up to an hour and a half before it starts, but it always eventually starts. A few questions for the group: Has anyone DEFINATELY seen their problem solved by repacking the clutch? Why does this affect the starting only when hot? Is there any other way for me to be sure this is MY issue? Thanks. J | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 617 Registered: 11-2002 |
BillyBob is correct on the set screw moving the entire assembly in relation to the throw out bearing, which will influence engagement characteristics, not change SUH. Strong work Bob. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 451 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff, billy Bob, Thanks, very interesting. I don't know if you guys saw my thread on the clutch wear issue, but I'm going to look into making that spring. Well actually replacing all of them. I am not sure if it is possible but I will have little to lose if it isn't. Worth a try. Jeff, It looks like i will be down for a little longer than expected, so I will remove the flywheel and weigh it and compare with your notes. the post about hearing the noise was from a ferrari mechanic I talked to who said that when the flywheel is bad you should be able to hear it. he also described the noise that it makes on shutdown, and from what he described it is a quite a bit more pronounced that what I am experiencing I'm also going to look into resurfacing the clutch. I do this on a lot of equipment and it seems plausible that I should be able to do it on this one as well. What do you think? Vincent | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 330 Registered: 12-2002 |
Very interesting post, BB, thank you. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 270 Registered: 8-2002 |
I disagree with Rexrcr on the set screw being for adjusting SUH. SUH to my understanding is a measurement in the 348 between the face of the flywheel to the top of the pressure plate fingers on an assembled unit. There is no adjustment here. This is a fixed static measurment only changed by wear of the clutch discs and wear on the friction surface of the FW. this is a significant issue when you want to change to a 4 disc set-up with stock throwout bearing so that the pressure plate action with be the same throw, or when checking for wear limits. You see there is a marcel, in fact 2 marcels in the twin set up. And without pressure on the discs you can't tell if there is too much wear without additional specs about the thickness of clutch disc at rest or in compression. Both settings that Ferrari provides. Here Ferrari provides too much information and other places too little. The set screw changes the position of the entire FW/clutch assembly in relation to the Throwout bearing. The set screw changes the postion of the entire platter arrangement. So if you ignore the set screw and torque the 4 pin lock nut down the platter end locks to the bell house bearing flat. You can add a gap here by moving the set screw then torquing down the 4 pin ring. I think this is a stupid design because you have 150ftlbs torque basically being held on a 4mm diameter pin that comes to a point no less. Personally IMO thre is plenty of throuw int the T/O bearing to allow flat setting of the pin and full seating of the platter to the bell house bearing face at 150 ft lbs. I race my car this way for many miles and have about 50k miles on the clock and have never had a problem with this. And you don't need a press like I said for removal. Just use an appropriote size bearing seating tool and put on the end of the platter snout and wack it with a rubber mallet. It falls right off everytime. anyway I'm not FNA just a garage rat. This is my take on this and I've done it many times. Rex is a hard source to dispute he has huge experiance. I think I can find my a** with both hands? BTW Rex what is your e-mail? I think I have an old one I tried to get you but did not get a reply. [email protected] | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 329 Registered: 12-2002 |
The shop manual lists the weight of the flywheel as 8.33 kilograms, or 18.37 lbs. I have to wonder why your mechanic put your old clutch back into the car in such condition? I wouldn't think the flywheel would make any noise when you spin it unless it is totally bone dry and the internal parts are damaged. It's the inertia of spinning it under load that causes the rattle. I'm still betting that you have a flywheel problem, and that it will be OK once you remove it, clean it, and repack it. And it appears that you need new discs and PP, so you shouldn't have to take it apart again for a long time! I still don't understand how you can remove the flywheel from the housing without a press. Anyone? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 442 Registered: 4-2003 |
Looks like I won't be worrying about the flywheel for a little while. http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/256646.html?1054173926 | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 438 Registered: 4-2003 |
New development, If you spin the flywheel, shake it around, shouldn't you hear this sound? Is there a spec. weight for the entire flywheel including grease? I could weigh it and see whether I have grease in there or not. I spun the FW and put a flat plate on the PP, runout seems allright, and I hear no rattle. It sure seems like everything is allright. I talked to a F-mechanic and he told me that when the flywheel is bad, it does cause hot start problems, but you can really hear it and feel it. Also since I get a rattle at RPMS other than Idle, that the rattle I hear is something else. Perhaps my phase sensor is affected by the heat on a hot run, and does not detect TDC right away and thus the long cranking after a hot run. He thinks I should be feeling more of a vibration if my FW was indeed bad. What do you guys think? I am going to check the "other rattle" by taking the upper exhaust off tonight. Also, good news, I brought the piece to the mechanic to remove the nut and as far as the grease he put in it was at the throwout bearing when he replaced the seals there. There is grease between the flange and throwout bearing I was glad to hear that he didn't do anything to the flywheel. We just got crossed up on the phone it seems. I really want to look inside, but I'm thinking that due to lack of grease in the bell housing, no perceptible rattle in flywheel, and the fact that no one has messed with it at all, that I should leave well enough alone and maybe check some other stuff. Wow, there is so much out there to learn about these cars. Thanks again to everyone for their time and help. If there is an exshaust rattle might push me over the edge for that Tubi. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 613 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lack of "flatness". Warp. Usually specified as an accepted range and/or unacceptable maximum. T.I.R. is a common term in machining for total indicated run-out. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 436 Registered: 4-2003 |
Rexrcr, >>One more thing: every flywheel friction surface I've seen looks exactly like the one pictured here. Measure for run-out, looks seem to have little indication of warp in this application.<< Sorry, what is runout? thanks, | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 605 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, per BillyBob, no press required. Also, I never had to "pull" the assembly back on, though maybe with age, this is now required or easier. As an asside, the one assembly I encoutered that would not simply slip back on turned out to have a failed output shaft bearing internally. Dodged a bullet there, for sure. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 604 Registered: 11-2002 |
Not so, my friends. SUH is adjusted via the allen head set screw centered on the large "circular-nut-with-the-four-notches" beautifully photographed in Vincent's earlier post. Yes, this is the dealy accessed under the little cover with the Cavalino cast into it. Also, to measure SUH, you need to provide your own reference surfaces using flat steel plate of appropriate size. One to lay across the clutch spring "fingers", one to give reference "inside" the assembly. You'll see what I mean when you realize the reference points in the WSM are actually points in space where there's no actual machined or cast surface. Vernier or dial caliper required. Yes, the TSB for increasing grease quantity exists. Ask Dr. Ferrari here on FC, he wrote the TSB in 1993 or 1994 himself for FNA. One more thing: every flywheel friction surface I've seen looks exactly like the one pictured here. Measure for run-out, looks seem to have little indication of warp in this application. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 327 Registered: 12-2002 |
Interesting to read Billybob's comments. I can't imagine how you would get the flywheel removed from the housing without using a press, but if you say it can be done, please explain, you're far more experienced at this than I am and I want to know the "tricks"! | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 268 Registered: 8-2002 |
Vincent, Your mechanic was not doing a good job on your FW. You need the special grease because it has the right propertys for the heat it takes. Jeff is mostly right. Becareful of using the threaded screws in the filler holes at the back. This method works but you do hit other parts in the FW and can damage parts if you just screw into the frisbee looking thing in the FW. You do not need a press to do this job. The 4 pin wrnech can be made at home. Search the archives I told people how to do this some time ago. You have to have the right grease and the right amount which is 185 grams by the book or 225grams I think from a TSB that RexRcr mentioned but I have not seen. Anyway you can't just fill from the filler holes at the rear because you will not distribute the grease. Some FW will not work anybetter post grease due to allowing excessive wear of the cheap plasticv parts in the FW. Then no amount of grease prevents this rattle. There is no replacement parts for the internals of the FW. You can reface any FW so don't worry about that. The SUH is not adjustable. You need to have the FW ground and set-up within its wear limits to have a proper SUH. Tip on replacing bell house is to buy some extra long studs. Screw two in 180 degrees apart on the gearbox case. Then put the bell house on and screw it down gentle and evenly until you can engage other studs. then pull the long studs out and put the short ones in. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 435 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks Jeff. I hope to have it split apart tommorow, curious to see what is inside as well. I'll make sure to bring my micrometer home so that I can verify all of the dimensions. I ordered a workshop manual from ferraribooks.com, but probably won't see it till sat. or mon. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 325 Registered: 12-2002 |
To me, your flywheel surface doesn't look too good. Lots of hot spots. I'll shoot some figures from the shop manual to you, for the twin plate clutch. Facing outer diameter: 215mm Facing inner diameter: 148mm Intermediate plate thickness: 9.0mm Thickness of clutch plate without load: 7.25mm Thickness of driven plates under load of 535 daN: 6.90mm Wear limits for each clutch plate: 0.8mm Flywheel height: 51mm Maximum reduction in flywheel thickness: 0.8mm Set up Height: 47-51mm (see illustration) Your mechanic may need to make the measurements for you and help with the set up height, which is a bit over my head as well. You may need to set up a dial indicator. You can't take much meat off the flywheel in resurfacing or it's toast!!!  | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 431 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ok, took the clutch apart and marked everything as I did. This part was no prob, took about 15 minutes. I will take the flywheel to the mechanic today, he thought that he might have the tool I was describing to remove the flywheel. I am thinking that I would like some info on clutch plate wear min. spec. for the double plate clutches on 348's. I also see some heat on the metal friction parts between the clutch surfaces. Here are some pics. housing, the lower small cover plate was where the leak was fixed.  Clutch  Top of flywheel  | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 324 Registered: 12-2002 |
If he repacked the flywheel, he had to remove it from the housing - you can't get at the plugs unless you remove it. Didn't add the factory grease, just topped it up with something else? Not very smart. Just guessed at the quantity? Not very smart. If there is no sign of grease leaking from the flywheel, the seals are probably OK, it will be interesting to see what's inside! Oh, by the way, you need a Torx bit socket, either T45 or T50 (can't remember), to remove the bolts that hold the halves of the flywheel together. There is a big o-ring inside the flywheel to seal the two halves together, and there are two small o-rings around the shaft of each of the bolts. Be careful when you split the flywheel open. The best way I found to do this is to remove the two filler plugs and slowly screw a couple of bolts of the same thread pitch in their places, pushing the two halves apart. Nothing will pop out under spring pressure, but you want everything to stay in place until you register how it all fits together. I don't think it's likely that your rattle came from the exhaust, but it's possible, particularly if the elements are loose inside the catalytic converter cans. Now is the time to check them! And give the muffler a good shake and listen to find if anything sounds loose inside. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 429 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thinking about this today. The lower muffler is only inches away from the back of the clutch housing and flywheel. Could the lack of a heatshield in this area cause the grease to lose viscosity and thus cause this problem? Would placing a heatshield there improve this situation? Jeff have you had any problems since repacking the flywheel? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 427 Registered: 4-2003 |
Allright, I have the housing off, with all the clutch, flywheel parts still attached. Everything looks clean, except for some dust from the clutch. I'll post some pics, when I get back home. I talked to my mechanic who fixed my leak at the back of the housing a month ago, and he said that they repacked the flywheel at the same time. This wasn't on my invoice. When I asked about the grease, he told me they didn't use the factory stuff and put in about 2 and half ounces. Can you use some other grease other than that special grease which come from the Modena Yak. He thinks the rattle I hear comes from the top exhaust can, though he wasn't able to reproduce it. My guess is they didn't run the car till it got hot enough. I do hear a similar noise when I go over some bumps though. Maybe I have two separate problems. (though an exhaust rattle doesn't scare me). I would like the car to start clean all of the time. Now I am confused a bit. Vincent | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 323 Registered: 12-2002 |
I don't think it matters if the trans is in gear when pulling off the housing, since it's coming over the studs and can't be twisted anyway. Hope it goes well tomorrow. Work slow, mark everything, take pix. By the way, your exhaust donuts should be fine to reuse if they were just replaced. White powder? Don't ask, don't tell.... | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 426 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks Jeff, I'll give it a go tommorow. Does it matter if the car is in gear or not? | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2002 |
OK, let's see if more than one person answers this. You're doing fine. Your yellow question mark is the bleeder for the hydraulic clutch. Don't open it, just move it aside for now. The hex screw in the center doesn't come into play right now, and neither does the ring nut. If all of the nuts around the perimeter are off, the housing will pull right off with the clutch assembly attached to the flywheel. I haven't done one with the dual-disc clutch, but it appears to be largely the same. Next comes removal of the ring gear, then removal of the clutch itself, using allen head bolts (6mm ?). You should make some marks to reassemble everything exactly as it came apart. After that comes removal of the flywheel, which requires the ring nut tool, and probably a 3/4" drive impact wrench. It's on there TIGHT. Be careful not to lose the spacer (#5). And make a mark on the hex screw (#14) so you have a record of its original position. Once you get the flywheel off the housing (using a press) you can move on to regreasing it. Anyone with more experience, please feel free to add your input or criticize what I'm saying!  | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 420 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff, The first paragraph was to thank JRV for taking the time. The rest is up for grabs! Anyone? | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 321 Registered: 12-2002 |
JRV, are you out there, or should I answer this? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 416 Registered: 4-2003 |
JRV, Thanks for taking the time to look. I really appreciate it. I did find that one, and have read about 9 or 10 pertaining to this issue. Man, this site is awesome!!!!! Thanks Rob. I have removed the exhaust, it heavier than I thought. Sometime I want to know what those things have in there. Removed all the bolts from the housing as well as the center small cover plate and the ventilation cover plate on the bottome which bridges both halves. All in about an hour, not bad for a guy with only one 13mm. wrench (had to borrow) and a socket set. (insert pat on back here) Now... I see the 4 pin nut, there is also a somekind of keeper or stud which requires a hex. How do I get the housing off? Do I just pull it, or do I have do undo the 4 pin nut, or do I need to do something with the stud in the middle? also what is that for? It seems to go to the transmission. If I'm using the wrong terms, please correct. Thanks,    I included the picture of the gaskets because they were changed about 600 miles ago. Should they look like this? What is the white powder on them? | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 319 Registered: 12-2002 |
I had some other pix but they have been erased from memory. It was very, very messy inside my clutch housing because the filler plug had partially backed out and the grease was slung all over.Took a whole roll of paper towels to clean up the old grease. I didn't use the filler plugs to insert the new grease, I applied it with a popsicle stick while the flywheel was open, after first measuring out the specified amount on a postal scale. I can honestly say that the flywheel repair completely cured my hot start problem, at least as far as requiring excessive cranking to start. It still has the intermittant problem with not cranking over at all on the key, which I cured with a remote starter switch mounted in the cigarette lighter position. Whole 'nother problem. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1583 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here's one link, and the one with photos was very soon after this: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/178274.html#POST115268 | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 412 Registered: 4-2003 |
JRV, i went through the archives with the search word "flywheel". This brought a lot of stuff, I went through all the posts with more than one mention of flywheel and didn't find pics, other than Jeff's,and peters gt4 with fried flywheel. But this reaffirmed that it's the flywheel I'm after. Right? BTW, I noticed that I didn't find any posts stating: all better now after changing the flywheel. I guess everybody is too busy driving after a successful fix. Gotta get back to it. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1580 Registered: 11-2002 |
Someone should search the archives and pull up the link and paste it with the detailed pics of the flywheel dirty, together, apart, all cleaned up and ready...they are in there because we've discussed this several times and someone very kindly took an entire series of photos. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 693 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ack! Mine too... just started to experience some poor hot starts this weekend ... have a lightened flywheel in my car with twin-disc racing clutch.... I hear the clunking sound during shutdown and sometimes when the car doesn't start. Is repacking with grease the answer? Is this hard to do? I know I have a pretty new clutch, and hope (and pray) I don't have to replace my flywheel!!! | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 318 Registered: 12-2002 |
Scott: Sounds like this is the time to handle your flywheel! When the clutch is being done, all you need to remove the flywheel is the 4-pin socket and a press. You can't service the flywheel without these tools, so make sure in advance that your mechanic has one or can make one. Have a tub of the special grease on hand as well. The flywheel should NOT need to be replaced unless it is very badly scored or warped, but it should be completely disassembled and cleaned. Not difficult, I did it myself at home. Good luck to you, too! | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 410 Registered: 4-2003 |
Allright...here goes. i have the car raised a little for better access, and I'm about to start. If this doesn't fix it in the end, at least I will know that I have the right amoung of flywheel grease in the darn thing. I only have limited time in the evenings so this may take a little while. I'll keep everybody posted and shoot some pictures. Hopefully we can get a parts/service thread going for 348 owners with what seems to be a common problem. Wish me luck. | ||
| scott chivers (Spider_scott)
New member Username: Spider_scott Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2002 |
Oh I forgot to say my 94 Spider does exactly the same and chatters when turned off, definatly sounds like we have the same issue. | ||
| scott chivers (Spider_scott)
New member Username: Spider_scott Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2002 |
This may seem a silly question but as I said earlier my 348 will soon be booked in for a new clutch (within the month). Is it standard that when the clutch is replaced the flywheel is repacked with Grease ??? or will I need to ask my garage to do this separatly ?? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 399 Registered: 4-2003 |
Jeff, i have been reading some of the old threads in the archives and it does seem that I need to repack the grease. The leak I had was not merely those seals going bad it seems, but rather the first indicator of a flywheel problem. I'll get started tonight, never done one of these, but doesn't look like I can get in too much trouble If I'm careful. I'm sure you guys will be hearing from me. I hope this hasn't caused any other problems, though from reading the archives it seems that once fixed the car will run fine. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 316 Registered: 12-2002 |
It's hard to believe at first that a flywheel problem will cause a hot start problem, but it's true, and it sounds like that's what you're looking at. Too bad it wasn't done when your o-rings were replaced, because it all has to come apart again. You have to remove the flywheel from the clutch housing to gain access to the filler plugs, and you'll want to clean it all up anyway. You also have to purchase a tub of the special grease, which is about $75. Not a real easy job, but certainly not worth the $4000 or so that some people have paid! | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 398 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks guys, JRV, I do hear a rattling when I shut her down, it in fact seems to be more and more pronounced meaning last time the vibration lasted a bit longer. I also hear the same when running at around 3000RPM with constant throttle, or under deceleration with no throttle. When I accelerate the car sounds and feels fine, no noises (other than the regular noises associated with using the go pedal on a Ferrari) and or vibrations. I have the twin plate racing clutch set-up, does this set up have the same flywheel specs. It is sounding more and more like I need to repack the grease? I will double check the shut down noise I hear tonight. If the grease is the problem, I'd like to do it myself, take some pictures and post it on the repair/service part of the board. It sounds like a fairly common 348 prob. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1571 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>When gas gets hot, it vaporizes.<< Gas Under Pressure does NOT vaporize when it gets hot. Which it why it remains pressurized for a calculated period of time after shut down, typically about an hour. The flywheel issue is easy to diagnois, as it makes a rattling/clunking noise on shut down. You can here a distinct clanking/rattling noise when you shut off the engine just before it fully stops spinning. The 348 series has no accumulator, it has a check valves at the pump in the tanks and a Fuel Pressure Regulator at the front end of the fuel rails. to check the regulators pull the little vacum hose and look for raw fuel, there should be none. To check the check valves condition requires the use of FP gauges plumbed in. HTH's | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 315 Registered: 12-2002 |
My first experience with Fchat was the great help that was given to me with a similar problem on my 348. Do you get a very noticeable "rattling" sound from your engine compartment when you are cranking over the engine or when shutting it off? This is a sign that the flywheel may be causing your hot start problem. Check archives/search for more information. For my picture of the "guts" of the flywheel, go to: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/193285.html Good luck! | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 262 Registered: 12-2002 |
I also have had this problem and have had quite a few discussions with various people about it. I know that when the 348 losses the grease from the harmonic balancer they are a pig to start. Why? � The only explanation that I can come up with is the Trigger sensor on the front of the camshaft is sensitive to vibrations. No grease in the balancer and you have problems. The other point to make is that obviously the grease will become less viscous as the temperature rises. Higher Engine temperature, less dampening of vibrations, - Difficult starting? Didn�t Ferrari amend the amount of grease to put in the Flywheel? � I am sure it was a larger quantity than first specified? The above could be proved if there was no spark when this situation arises What makes this sound even more like it is the sensor is when Rob said that the car would start in 1st gear, but not in neutral. - In 1st the clutch will be absorbing some of the vibrations letting the sensor work. Paul | ||
| scott chivers (Spider_scott)
New member Username: Spider_scott Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2002 |
When I get this problem its generally seen when I pull in to fill the car with gas for a few minutes. Ive tried leaving the engine lid open (this was due to my petrol cap solinoid not working and me having to manually open it via the engine bay!..its fixed now) ...anyway having the lid open made no difference. Would Robs solution of starting the car in first and not neutral link in with the flywheel grease or lack of it ??...im not that technical when it comes to clutch mechanics. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5007 Registered: 12-2000 |
Yes, I had this problem along with another FC'er in a 348 down at San Antonio for a FCA event. It was very hot and humid. After we got in the habit of opening the engine bonnet, everything was cool. For some reason also and I know enough about cars to know this shouldn't help anything, but for some reason it would start if I was in 1st and not neutral. Also, make sure your A/C is off. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1781 Registered: 6-2001 |
When gas gets hot, it vaporizes. When you try to start the car, no gas, until the electric pump put liquid gas into the lines. This happens all the time on airplanes. Since your fuel lines in the engine compartment, they get hot. A good way to keep this from happening is to raise the engine cover after a hard run. Seems to solve the problem for those 348s that have this problem. Art | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 386 Registered: 4-2003 |
I've recently had the rear transfer shaft o-rings replaced. The shaft terminates at the front of the clutch housing, any chance I nee to repack the grease. this was a problem before I did this. Anybody have a pic or drawing of where the grease goes? Scott, keep me posted it seems like we have a very similar problem. thanks, | ||
| scott chivers (Spider_scott)
New member Username: Spider_scott Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ive got this problem on my 94 spider. Someone told me it is something to do with a lack of grease somewhere in the flywheel area ??? .... not sure how true this is. Anyway Ill be getting a new clutch fitted in the next few weeks (due to slip) so if it makes any difference Ill let you all know. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 382 Registered: 4-2003 |
David, thanks for the lead. It looks like I may have a weak accumulator "check valve". Looking around this injection system is present not only on the 348 but also on the 512 and a few others. Hopefully someone will know. thanks | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 797 Registered: 5-2001 |
Vincent, someone else can explain this better than me, but the FI system operates differently based on temp. So cold start is different than hot start, or even warm start. I think yours is electronic FI, but on a mechanical FI like on my 328, your symptoms would indicate a possible loss of fuel pressure...perhaps a bad check valve or something. There is a great explaination of mechanical FI at www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm Not sure where to find info on electronic FI, try a google search. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 374 Registered: 4-2003 |
Allright, it seems that my starter motor is turning the engine over fine. Why would the fuel pressure regulator be acting up when the engine is warm? When it does fire, which sometimes takes a try ot two, it runs awesome. No idling issues, no lights, nothing. The car has no problems starting cold whatsoever. Is there any dangers to overcranking? I know you can heat up starter motors if you crank too long. How long is too long on a 348? | ||
| FABS (Caruso360)
New member Username: Caruso360 Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2003 |
Had same problem. FoDenver said it was a grounding issue that arose after 30k service. They went through it. Since then it has only repeated the initial no start when hot only once. However, I must say, I do cross my fingers when I'm about to turn it over on occasion. | ||
| darren ahrt (Darhart)
New member Username: Darhart Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2003 |
I've had this problem, i have heard it is down to the starter motor not getting enough power. This may due to poor quality cable/connectors from the battery in the front to the rear. I have heard of people running in a new cable direct to the starter motor. If the starter motor is turning but not firing it may be down to the fuel pressure regulator, (according to my mechanic). | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 338 Registered: 4-2003 |
When the car is hot and i have to shut it down for a few minutes it sometimes doesn't start on the first try afterwards. Is this normal? It start right up in all other situations. |