Why track?

Just curious if you've done an HPDE day in a fast car, only because these types of debates/arguments are between people with experience in one but not the other (I've raced karts in Tag 125 class).

I'm not arguing wheel to wheel racing isn't more fun. I'm mostly pointing out that there is PLENTY of fun to be had in a fast car in an HPDE track day. And I'm a big believer that if you have a fast car YOU MUST take it to the track, where you can responsible approach and sometimes exceed it's limits...otherwise you're missing out on one of the great joys of owning such a car.

 

HAHAHA

 

I have considered a Ferrari challenge car in the past...it just seemed a little farther than I was willing to go from a practical standpoint. Which even as I type it seems ridiculous considering how impractical my F8 is. I do love being able to drive my car to the track with virtually no prep (I'll do a track inspection every other track day at the dealer) do my laps, then drive home. Easy peasy.

But man...the 992 cup car sounds AMAZING. I'm so tempted

 

I have tracked several fast street cars including my own 458. I'm really not opposed and I want you to enjoy your car and I agree they are meant to be driven. My point really is all this talk about 10/10s, 9/10s, etc. is concerning to me. First, I've never seen a HPDE driver get close to the times of a racer in a similar car. Second, if they do, they are playing with fire. The danger isn't other people (well, I guess that's true too),the danger is the car and driver are typically not EQUIPPED with the proper safety gear should something untoward happen.

 

Ok yeah. At this point we're just talking about semantics...what I mean by 8/10 or 9/10 vs what you mean. I know I've got 5 or 6 seconds a lap to find...and even then, I'm sure I'll be off the ideal time by at least a couple seconds. But I'm going fast enough to do the things I want in the car...controlling the slip angles front and rear with the brake and throttle and finding the traction limits. That doesn't mean I'm doing it well! HAHA. To me, at least where I am now, that's where a lot of the lap time is gonna come. Being more precise when I approach traction limits. But man, this car drives like a dream. Controlling slides at even high speeds is so easy and progressive. I haven't been surprised...yet (knock on wood).

Compared to most people at the track days, I've got more safety equipment. Full race harness and bar, carbon fiber race seats and the HANS Device. It's not as good as a full roll cage...but I also REALLY don't want to wreck my car, so I'm driving a little dialed back at all times. Maybe it's not enough...but I'm doing a full roll cage in the 992 Turbo S and a 6 point harness, and that will be my more regular track car. I'll take the F8 to the track maybe 4 or 5 times a year going forward

 

Be careful and enjoy that machine. Great discussion.


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Dave,

W2W contact frequency will be higher but drivers in real racecars are more protected and the cars, even modified street cars, can protect at a higher G load. The racer tends to know more to mitigate risk like knowing where to take risks. A street car is a compromise. Your wife would never wear a helmet, fire suit and climb over a rollcage but she is also traveling a much lower speed so impacts with OEM street protection works. If everyone drove racecars with helmets crashes at street speeds under 60mph would all be walk away incidents. In a well built converted street car safety is a system and it starts at the seat. We use full containment seats and everything is designed around driver restraint. So if you hit a wall in streetcar with street retention at 60mph you might get hurt and never do the sport again. This has happened to many after their 1st good crash. But in my racecar I hit the same wall at 100 and walk away swearing because I wrecked my car but my body is fine. The F8 can travel at 200mph but the federally mandated street safety system is the same as a toyota camary that barely goes over 100. Look at the inside of a NASCAR or a DTM car and you will see all the safety elements found in a F1 cockpit.

 

I've actually hit a concrete wall at over 100 mph when I stupidly turned off all traction control and stability control in a Corvette Z06. It was very similar to the Dale Earnheart crash. Street cars are surprisingly durable. But also, I got a racing harness, HANS device and NEVER completely defeat the stability control and traction control now. HAHA. I guess learn the hard way!

 

This is terrifying. Am I understanding you correctly that you bought a 6 point harness but declined to install it correctly and instead you're using it as if it were a 4 point harness and you're expecting it to work properly with a HANS device in a collision? We all have to make our own risk/reward analysis, but damn. That's not a choice I'd make.

You've never met my wife.

That said, I feel like you're really portraying an HPDE in a street car in the least charitable light possible in order to strengthen your position. I doubt the data actually support your position, though. Anecdotally, I've seen a lot more driver injuries in spec Miata than I have in HPDEs during the time I've been in the hobby, even in the fast, modern cars we like to drive today.

Edit to add: Some of the scariest and least safe driving I've encountered has been on club drives by chuckleheads who really ought to be attending HPDEs instead of treating public roads like their own personal race track. My street driving got way more boring and a lot less risky once I started getting it out of my system on closed courses with corner workers and flagging. Tracking is more fun and more safe and now I'm happy being a lot more boring on the club drives.

 

Sorry you feel this way. The last thing I'll say about this is that I did HPDE too, before I was a racer and I will go back to HPDE when I stop racing. HPDE is a great game to play. I think that too many think that adding a helmet or a harness and harness bar makes them safer. The answer to that is "sometimes." People don't know what they don't know and often never reap the consequences of their actions. Lucky them! Hopefully they get educated along the way so they can play the game longer. Just looking at harnesses there is so much to learn. 4pt, 5pt, 6pt, 8pt harnesses, there is a good reason for all of it including the subset of submarine belts, departure angles, and harness anchors.

The speed you travel doesn't know if you are racing or just doing HPDE. If you hit someone's oil your car does not know if you are racing or HPDE. If you crash at speed your chances of injury increase with less safety system. I'm not saying radical things. We race with all that safety stuff for a reason. We know what keeps you safe at speed and we know how to mitigate risk. It's really not "if" you crash. It's "when" you crash. If you do the game long enough something bad will happen. I loose a car about every 10 years of club racing. It's just the stats. Eventually the house wins. All you can do is put the odds in your favor or stop playing the game before you loose.

 

If you're going to go more than 7/10s, a 6-point harness, full-face helmet, NASCAR cage, fireproof suit, are the minimum. I cringe every time I read C&D running street cars at VIR at racing speeds. I know the drivers are pros, but...

 

7/10ths still is deep triple digits at the end of some of these straights in modern high hp supercars

 

I’ve done a lot on track from hundreds of HPDE to hundreds of races up to 24hr endurance racing.
Street car (all levels), race cars up to F3000, with every level of safety from a 1964 Corvette convertible with literally no safety up to FIA certified safety in F3000. Full caged NASA spec cars, etc etc.

Life is full of risk. Wet floor in the shower to start your day for that matter. You can live in a bubble, and still die by frozen poop projectile from an airplane overhead in a freak accident.

But to keep the risk on topic with driving cars, I’ll do an HPDE in an off the showroom floor OEM stock supercar and calculate my risk to still be far lower than driving on public roads in almost anything else.

You do you.

 

Honestly, I've seen incidents in HPDE days...but we're all going the same direction on a track meant to be driven fast. I think it's much more likely that I'll die getting T Boned by some idiot on public roads than during an HPDE day. But hey, everyone makes their own risk/reward calculations

 

I get it. But if you're going to drive 9/10s or 10/10s or 10/11s and 11/10s, why not be safe?

 

I'd like to do Ferrari Challenge. But there's the time commitment. With HPDE I just go for 1 or 2 days when I'm sure I got nothing else going on, on my schedule. And I have little to no prep.

Then there's the cost. I was told about 100k per race weekend, about 1 million a season. I'm not there yet. Fantastic if you are.

In the mean time, I'll have a blast with my VERY FAST and fun Ferrari F8 at track days!

 

I’m not putting a cage in my street cars. I upgrade brakes and use Castrol SRF in everything. I wear the appropriate PPE for the situation. And I don’t drive 10/10ths at HPDE. These are my main methods of safety when not actually racing.

 

Cool.

 

I’m not going to talk anyone in or out of full safety equipment, but having tracked rather extensively, I no longer will put a street car on a track. I’ve seen way too many incidents,,many of which were not the driver’s fault.

My epiphany came at Daytona in the 458 Spider at 170 around the sweeper. I realized then that there wouldn’t be much left were I to go off….

 

I’m pretty sure that is first reference to frozen poop projectiles I’ve ever heard.


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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/frozen-excrement-dropped-from-plane-crashes-through-house-roof-a6952366.html

https://www.newsweek.com/passing-plane-drops-frozen-block-poo-over-town-shocking-residents-1600510

You can find many stories…

 

You will rarely see me without a ballcap. A bird crapped on my head once. I hate birds. If I was a hunter, it would be for birds. I never thought about a frozen turd. Maybe time for a hardhat?

 

Nevertheless, my first encounter. Be sure you keep the dirty side down as you track those show room fresh supercars!