And how about motorcycle injectors?
Hey Pad, Nice job. Did you do the custom mods to your intake? I am thinking about something like yours. Was there any mods that you did to the inside of the plenum, like modifying the velocity stacks? From what I can tell the cast velocity port does not seem to be that great. I figured if I went to the extent of tearing an intake plenum apart I might as well try and make everything in there flow nicely. I have no idea though how much of a performance gain or loss that would be. What size TB and how does the cars performance compare now (EFI) to the old (CIS)? Bill
Harta--there is a fine line on just how far you can machine down into the intakes. at 1/2" depth I am only about .080" from cutting into the runners inner tube.
Harta, The car came into my possession with the EFI setup but not running. I subsequently rewired the engine compartment and installed the Wintec3 system. As to your question of CIS vrs EFI, with the proper programming, I firmly believe that you can achieve greater results from the EFI, especially if you are doing other mods such as headers, straight through exhaust, cams, and especially boost. The key is proper programming which can truly only be achieved through dyno runs. One thing to keep in mind, its quick and easy making changes to timing, fuel delivery, etc using a laptop and in many cases these changes can be done "on the fly", as compared to changing out jets, chokes, adjusting distributors,... As to my cars performance, its rather quick, especially in the upper rpm range (however, another 100 hp would be nice). The TB is 89mm.
The MS2 is out and it addresses some of the problems I had with the MS like ignition contol, Idle Air Control (IAC), too few drivers....But I'm still not sold. The ignition options for an 8 cylinder are 1 distributor or ford EDIS, so EDIS is what you need to run unless you have or conver to single distributor. The EDIS system is fine, but as I understand it, it needs it's own 36-1 trigger wheel while the MS2 seems to want a simple 4 pulse per rev trigger. It probably functios fine, just not all that clean. The MS fuel (and ignition) maps have about 1/3 the resolution of the haltech (and I think other controlers) so the tuning will never be as good. My old E6K had 1/2 the resolution of the new units and the difference is noticable in the way the car runs and particularly in throttle response (although that may be processor speed). But the most important thing is that MegaSquirt is kind of for electronics types....the linux of EFI sort of but without the superior performance. Even if you buy a fully assembled version, there are still jumper wires to add, optional circuits to add and the like. The product support is really through a forum, not the maker. And because it's by electronics people for electronics people it does weird stuff. There in no independant internal air pressure reading, it uses the map sensor at startup to take a baseline (unless you add an additional circuit)....that means you your mixture will be wrong if you take a drive through the mountains. The IAC is just hooked to a temp map, so it's not an RPM controler...without the IAC responding to RPM, my engine stalls. And there are a lot of other quirks. I'm sure it will work for you....but I'm also sure it won't work as well as the more expensive units.
PAD-- in 5 years I have had to return my Tec-3 4 or 5 times for repairs and upgrades--I am switching to MOTEC as soon as I can--- I was warned by several people NOT to buy Electromotive--now I understand but about 6000 too late..... I will be putting mine up on EBAY soon--it sux.
I know this is off the realy topic here, but why are you looking at the M800 over the M48? The M48 seems to do everything except throttle by wire including individual cylinder mapping and trim for $1000 less. I'm I missing something? I guess the M800 probably has a faster processor?
Having owned and used a M800 for the last four years, and helped tune a few M48s, I can tell you there is a great deal more differences than just the Drive By Wire option BTW the M48 does do individual cylinder trim, but not mapping (though the M4 does). The M48 is old technology and only supports the old DOS based software, there are unlikely to be any further updates to the software other than bug fixes. If it weren't for the fact that it's the control ECU for the Aussie V8 supercars it would probably be dropped from Motec's product line, as the have replacements in the form of the M400/M600/M800. Whilst the M48 is a capable unit it lacks spare Inputs & Outputs and it's logging rate and capacity is a lot less. There aren't enough spare outputs on the M48 to run wasted spark ignition on an 8 cylinder engine without resorting to an Ignition Expander or some sort of external ignition system so that would need to be factored into any cost calculations. While I would choose the M48 over most other aftermarket ECUs, I would rather have the M800, especially if any form of forced induction was contemplated.
Back on topic, the other option is to go for individual throttle bodies and adapters to match them to the Ferrari head. This example uses throttle bodies from a 20 Valve Toyota 4A-GE, whaich can be purchased quite cheaply secondhand. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
No, but that's what I intend to do to mine as soon as I can find someone to make the adapters. The car in the photo is a 328 from the Japanese website that sells the, IMO overpriced, kit in the other photo. There is also a dyno plot on the site for the 328 showing the improvements possible. Red line is standard output. Blue Line is with the throttle bodies and stock 5cm Toyota trumpets. Purple line is throttle bodies with no trumpets. Brown line is with 14cm J shaped trumpets. All power figures are PS (metric HP) at the wheels. (1PS=0.986HP), torque is KgM (1 KgM=7.233ft.lb) Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks...I had some mis-information....the US motec site directed me to M4 features when I clicked the M48 button. I just sent out a couple emails requesting price quotes on the 2 systems...in the end it's all about the money I guess.
It is interesting that my Weber carburrated 3.2 makes approximately the same hp as the Japanese multiple throttle body injected 328. Really confirms that the K-jetronic airflow limitations are the main thing to be overcome and that the multiple throttle bodies (carb or efi) are a good fix. Very cool info - many thanks rt Image Unavailable, Please Login
Compare to CIS which blows fuel continuously -- so when the valves are closed, it could be pooling up a tad. Some racing injectors have a very narrow pattern, and are designed to blow straight into the open valve. (LBIS: "Laser Beam Injection System"). These systems have to move a lot of fuel in a short time, take more sophisticated injection timing, and rely a lot on cylinder heat to achieve vaporization, but they do have a narrow pattern. I've seen rails set up like the one Atlantaman shows, but using flex lines between the rails and the injectors, instead of rigid pipes. Another consideration is the fuel pump and regulator. Most EFI systems run far lower fuel pressure than CIS, and the regulators are right on the rails. Anyone know if a lower pressure impacts the operation of the stock pump? Potentially, you could run four rails with four regulators to dodge the throttle body issue. (This would also limit cross pollenization, as only one of the pair of cylinders would be sucking fuel at a time (as they're 180 degrees apart).) But then, these are aluminum intakes. Who on this list has his trusty backyard kiln and casting sandbox? (With "lost foam" casting, you might even avoid the side seams the stockers sport.)
That's very cool. Individual throttle bodies aren't very good for boost scenarios though, are they? Seems that sealing a pressurized plenum over them would be problematic. This thread is turning into a "all the ways to inject the 3x8" thread, and hugely informative. Thanks everyone
Link? Also, you might try http://www.emachineshop.com/ for the custom adapters. Actually, once you get to the point of milling custom adapters, I guess almost any throttle body could be made to fit.
Discussion points MoTec 800 series--lots more inputs and outputs--and I have a V-12 to run with it---I will be installing the 440hp v-12 in a few months and shelving the 328 for a later application. Fuel rails---I used 2 rails but only 1 ruel regulator downstream HP--my stock 328 motor with EFI runs 249 at wheels.
I ran the stock pump with EFI for a couple years before switching to a bigger pump when I went to higher boost. 4 regulators is pricey. You could just run a braided line around the throttle body. I saw theat done somewhere.
I forgot about the 12...that's going to be cool. I call a motec dealer near me. M48 - $2335 Ignition expander - $500 (aloughs sequentail and waste spark on an 8) wide band lambda - $695 so $3700 to run my engine. They said an M800 starts around $5k Are these prices just standard list and there is a better place to shop?
Sealing a plenum with individual throttle bodies isn't really any harder than sealing the stock plenum, however there are other problems associated with forced induction such as where to place the pressure sensor, which really needs to be after the throttle plate(s). Using just one source would cause incorrect fuelling for the other cylinders, so you really need to tap all the runners and connect them to a small pressure vessel to damp the oscillations http://www.e-freedom.co.jp but, unless you read Japanese, this poor translation might be more useful http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.e-freedom.co.jp Thanks, they only seem to do 3 Axis milling but I've downloaded the software and I'll see if it can do the job Yes, but the Toyota ones are about the right size (43 or 45mm) and can be purchased second-hand complete with trumpets and TPS for around $US100-200 per set, and, at least in this part of the world, they are in plentiful supply.
These seem to be standard prices in the USA, price you pay for lacal marketing and support I suppose . In Australia or New Zealand the M800 can be purchased for for about half that price, which makes the decision easier for me. See http://www.cityperformancecentre.com/motec/motec-dealer-pricelist.htm#ENABLEDHARDWARE for a price comparison (all prices are in Australian dollars with 10% GST added) On the M800 wideband option is not really required unless you want closed loop operation, or the convienence of one key press to alter your fuelling to a value calculated according to a target map. IME neither of these features are worth the extra money. You can just hook up a Techedge or Innovate Wideband sensor and log/display the data. You still need an ignition expander or CDI-8 to run sequential ignition for an eight or twelve cylinder car, but it will run wasted spark on it's own.
hmmm.....it looks like I need to import the unit. I found this place that says they ship world wide http://www.horsepowerinabox.com/HPIAB2/category27_1.htm M800 $3527ASD but only $3207 ASD outside AS = $2434.60 USD and that seems like something worth buying!
Hmmm, grey market importing. Won't you be cursed and sentenced to damnation for all of eternity for such a reprehensible act? At least that's the impression I get when such heinous crimes are suggested to those resident in your part of the world On a more serious note, if you are indeed contemplating this then you should be aware that you will get no support from Motec either in the USA or Australia, all support will have to come through the original supplier, or a kind third party in Australia. So it pays to choose your supplier carefully. BTW you will also need to purchase the following parts as thats just the price for the ECU; 61017 - M800 WIRING LOOM ONLY - unterminated 4 metre wiring loom. Or, if you have a loom that you can use then you'll need the M800 connectors and a CAN connector for communicating to the ECU 65044 - CONNECTOR, M800 34 PIN 65045 - CONNECTOR, M800 26 PIN 61037 - LOOM - M400/600/800 to CAR (CAN) You will also need a programming cable; 61021 - CABLE, CAN INTERFACE - 2m - Connects to parallel port. Or, if you'd prefer USB then you'll need; 61059 - CABLE - USB TO CAN (UTC)
I talk to a bunch of people running MOTEC here, I think half of them bring it in from AU directly. Anyway, This is a great thread, and something I have been looking to do if/when the BOSCH unit gives up. BUT.... Given how anal Ferrari owners are about originality, do you look at this improvement as something that will devalue the car?
