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Engine Overhaul?

Discussion in '348/355' started by Vitamin_J, Oct 10, 2006.

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  1. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
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    Brian Crall
    Instead of a smooth continuous rotation you will hear a very uneven rotation with the load on the starter loading and unloading. It is due to the fact that on a V8 almost as soon as a cylinder is through with the compression stroke (the period at which the starter is under the most load) another cylinder is beginning the compression stroke so the rotational cycle should be pretty smooth when all is well. When you have cylinders that have poor compression the rotational cycle will be very uneven. When you work on many of the same family of motors day in and day out that sound sticks out like a sore thumb when it is not right.

    That is why the 12 cylinder motors sound like a turbine when starting, there is a constant, even load on the starter.
     
  2. davem

    davem F1 Veteran
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    Jan 21, 2002
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    Once a 355 engine has had a valve job and the new steel guides installed can the owner expect a simliar life span going forward comparable to other 3x8's
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    No.

    We have had many cases of rapid (compared to any other Ferrari V8) piston/ring/cylinder wall wear. We have seen it in a few cases since the late 90's but now we are seeing more and more of them.

    Did one recently and with less than 37k miles the rings were so worn out you could not recognize them as piston rings. Car had had a valve job at a dealer a few thousand miles earlier and came to me oil fouling a spark plug. 30% or so leak down. I have seen it enough times I have equipped us with a tool that gives us the ability to do a leak down with the heads off to ck ring sealing.

    I have a 355 here now for a valve job with 34k miles and a number of track miles and I am betting we will be into the cylinders. That is why I was not surprised that FOW gave such a high upper limit to the engine repair. I consider it very unprofessional not to prepare an owner for the potential down side. It is also why I was so critical of their detractors. They did everything right, exactly as I would want to be treated.

    We have seen none of this in 360's BTW. They are old enough to know we won't be having the same problems.
     
  4. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
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    Dec 9, 2003
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    I am so surprised to see that 355's are so unreliable... :(. The testarossa obviously also has expensive potential problems (diff comes to mind), but it doesn't sound nearly as unreliable as the 355...

    I was considering one as my next car...but I think I am over it, and will look art the 360...

    I really didn't think 355's were so bad. I figured if you bought one with new header, valve guides...you were good. But now, cylinder wear too?! Yeesh...
     
  5. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
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    So was the fouled plug the only symtom??

    How "many" cases of this piston/ring/cylinder wall wear have you seen? What do you think is the cause of this wear? Do you replace them with the same failure prone parts or are upgraded versions available?
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    No it obviously had a weak cylinder as well. That is one of the problems with 355's is that they have several known problems that give similar symptoms. Bad headers, bad valves or guides, and ring/piston wear can all manifest themselves in the same way and if someone is not particularly experienced in them or is not thorough in their repair or diagnosis the car does not get completely fixed. For example when bad compression is being repaired during disassembly the first part I remove from the motor is the headers. I inspect them then and there and I have found several bad ones on cars with bad compression. Dave Helms and I happen to think that is no coincidence. When the heads are off as I said I do a leak down on the cylinders themselves. Often when bad valves/guides are present they will not leak enough at the rings to be noticeable, hence the tool for testing that.

    How many? I was shop foreman at a very large Ca dealer, we did quite a few valve jobs. Never counted how many but as a ratio I would say in the earlier stages 1 in 5 or 6 needed cylinder work. That ratio has been changing as the fleet of 355's gets older. I have read of several reports of it here both in the US and UK so I know it is happening all over.

    As for parts, because of the Nikasil cylinders the piston/ring/sleeve are sized and materials are chosen to work in harmony so exchanging one part without considering that is a risk. Also 360's just dont have the problem and the same contractor is used. A change has obviously happened so we have been using the Mahle parts.
     
  7. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,426
    Seems a cylinder wear problem and valve guide issue would be totally separate causes.

    The cylinder wear would be from fuel washing or a constant miss such as a stuck injector or similar problem or oil fouled plug from a bad guide.

    Valve guides such as this car would be consuming oil rapidly another indicator, many older V12s have worn guides quickly with low mile motors as they were loose from Ferrari to begin and they will continue to run for years with less power and burning a quart of oil every few hundered miles as stated in the Sheehan article rebuild or buy more oil, the same could be said with a 355 with bad guides, just throw in more oil if it breaks so what you are $$ ahead from the added miles put on.
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    The wear is from the same cause, poor materials. There has never even been a seriously made or considered alternate cause. Same with the headers. The valves burning however is different. In every case I or Dave were personally involved, when all the information is available, when there has been a burned valve the car also had a header burn out on the same cylinder.

    In none of the cases was the complaint oil consumption. If oil consumption was the only concern we would just add oil.
     
  9. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
    5,058
    Mmm, i suspect you will be jumped on from a very great hight for them coments JP:D
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I'll get over it.:D
     
  11. wetpet

    wetpet F1 World Champ
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    May 3, 2006
    10,210
    there were two 355's with recent motor overhauls in the shop were i did my brakes last night. saw the worn sleeves. this same mechanic has done 8 355's in the last year.
     
  12. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

    May 26, 2006
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    I think what you mean is the burnt through header caused the burnt valve, right??
     
  13. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

    Mar 21, 2003
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    :D ;)
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Yes.
    We have seen to many go that way for it to be a coincidence. The header burns out and is either not noticed by the driver or the repair is put off for a number of miles. Header gets replaced and either it now still has a miss from bad compression or in another few miles it loses a valve.
     
  15. pistole

    pistole Formula Junior

    Jan 31, 2005
    771
    Malaysia
    someone should put a sticky on this thread (eg , "FYI - 355 Buyers").

    thanks to Rifledriver and Dave Helms for the comments/advise.

    ... off to look for a 348 .......

    cheers.
    .
     
  16. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,426
    I have only heard the 355 bashing on this site, my local F mechanics have not seen any issues with 355s and they have worked on a lot of them.

    Most 355 drivers are cool though and will wait for the 3x8 drivers at Starbucks on the long F car runs waiting in line then ordering and finally drinking the whole coffee until the 3x8 drivers show up:)
     
  17. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,426
    if this were as wide spread as posted here Ferrari would have a recall and be subjected to lemon laws just like they did with the 308GTSi cars and the oil problems in the 80s replacing the motors
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    With all the evidence presented by owners, mechanics and shop owners from multiple continents, well what can I say besides Elvis really is dead and there is no Easter Bunny.
     
  19. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,426
    In Vegas we see Elvis's often, too bad about the Easter bunny I'll get over it
     
  20. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Thou shalt not worship false Elvis's.
     
  21. flaviaman

    flaviaman Formula Junior

    Jul 26, 2005
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    Gregg
    There was never any recall on 308 injected motors, I was working for a dealer in those days. Motors were replaced on a case-by-case basis with the cars usually in warranty.
    FNA often made the point to both dealers and clients that
    "we really don't have to do this".

    In those days FNA was a very young company and trying to make a good impression. Furthermore in the early 1980's the Ferrari market was crap and we were fighting the gray market. I shutter to think what our business would have been like if people were getting stiffed for motors, and no doubt FNA and SpA saw the value in taking care of the client (what a unique concept...).

    These days things are very different for FNA...
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Correct in every way.

    We were both around when Ferrari salesmen actually had to SELL cars.
     
  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    308 drivers don't go to Starbucks, they drink mens coffee.
     
  24. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2004
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    That leaves one more 355 for me to own

    Dave
     
  25. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    Dec 1, 2004
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    I see lots of 355s sitting in the parking lot at Starbucks.......:)
     

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