The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I'm sorry this also shows how Chris Amon was a fantastic driver but not prepared to put the effort in.

While I believe you cannot use a tool that was not within the car, surely he could have found something else ... maybe a rock, or if this failed surely he could have made his way back to the pits with the hammer handle and had it fixed in the pits and then walked back.

Yes he would have lost maybe an hour, but heck the 250 LM won the race after a gearbox was replaced ...
Pete
ps: Being a New Zealander I have utmost respect for Chris Amon and was priviledged to see him give a very good demonstration of the 250F Maserati that he used to race at a race meeting in NZ where I won my first race, but if you listen to any documentary on Chris he does talk about the life of being a Ferrari racing driver and the benefits (play boy life style and how Enzo would ask more about that action than car progress) and I think even he would admit that more effort by the whole team was required back then, as the opposition had become serious at last.

ps1: Oh and yes as we can see 0846 was far from destroyed

 

That smell tell you one thing. You know they are the real thing. Great stuff in some of those "oldies but goodies". just one man's opinion tongascrew

 

If the rules were the same back then as they are now (I don't know for sure) the driver is only permitted to move a certain distance from the car without being disqualified (I think about 100ft)

Jeremy

 

Pete's suggestion that Amon "didn't put the effort in" is rather unfair. According to Amon's report on the incident, the tire started to go flat just past the pits, and by the time he was on the Mulsanne, the wheel rim and the upright were dragging on the road. He DID try to change the tire but failed. Then he DID try to drive the car back to the pits, although they were at least four miles away. It was after midnight, he had a totally flat tire, and he was sending out a huge trail of sparks from the magnesium parts. He had to jump out of the car when it caught fire. What more could he have done?

Ferrari certainly could have taken more steps to enable their drivers to install the spare tire if it went flat away from the pits.

 

Great find, that photo.......

 

Learnt something and thus my comments are unfair to Chris.

Pete

 

As I said, take the hammer handle (as the head flew off) back to the pits, yes long walk but definitely possible, and have it fixed and then walk back and replace the tyre.

But as JBanks said the drivers are not allowed to leave the cars (up to a certain distance) otherwise disqualified so that answers that.
Pete

 

Originally Posted by 335s in the 250P Thread.


ALL started as "legit", nee, 250P cars. ALL got different bodies-not only in the first year- but distinctly different noses in the following year(s) as "275Ps"(210 engines),
and different again as the final cars were stuffed with 163 and 209(?) blocks as most cars were run as "330Ps" ...along side the later framed: 0818, 0820, 0822 ...everyone gets it I think...those were the NEE 330P chassis-but, ALL chassiss ran with 4-litre mills, at some point, somewhere...
There are some stylistic differences, but it is all minor, mostly, cosmetic stuff...

Driving wise: Surtees himself opined to us that the cars were a tad underpowered as 250s,
a bit of an over weighted/overpowered and ill mannered pig, as 4 litres,
but, "just right" as 3.3 litres...best balanced-a "winner here, boys"

In truth, and the records will bear me out, these cars-in all iterations of essentially the same car-won nearly everything, for 2-3 years. Only the full on FORD, and later PORSCHE factory ALL OUT efforts tilted the field away from the P car class of Ferrari comp cars.

0810 started out with the clutch IN the bell housing, a-l-a LM, but went to the rear of the box in final trim...We have pics of this, as do most all of you..it also ran as a 330 car at...sebring(??)in 1964/65{my memory is awful on this stuff, and my apologies at being to lazy to look it up, its not that critical, as it an "essentially anecdotal" sort of a reference}.

The FIRST P cars{IMHO only}-the DINO SPs-the Chiti shark nose cars, still had, as did LMs, riveted fuel tanks...
The "12 cylinder P-cars"-these class of cars-were the first to have WELDED seams in their Ji-mon-gous fuel tanks-which ran on each rocker panel, and, had fuel running inside the frame tubes in places as well..geez, welding integrity in the frame joints and seams is sort-a-gettin' seriously important here, huh?
The fuel filler necks were tubes which ran from the Monza style caps, down 4 inch vertical downpipes-over 2 feet in length-to the tanks...
Re-fueling mishaps caused fires, improperly/just plain not 100% seated caps were vapour plumes awaiting an ignition source...enormous flash of flame, sheet alloy melts, rubber hoses, perhaps tyres, plastic side curtains and windscreen, then no more combustables..
'cept the Mag castings...if they go, its a 45 minute pyre..
I have seen original tanks, they are downright, horrifyingly, scary...countless fatigue fractures, dents, chafe fatigues, all "repaired"..sort of, back in period....No FAA airworhtiness certificate here! Time for NEW.

0812 was running away with it at LeMans in 1963 as a Team car, when it caught fire at the-you guessed it-the front of a fuel tank, which burned brightly-and quickly-until extinguished. Pictures are available here, on this site, elsewhere...after the factory rebuilt the car, it was a SEFAC 1st OA car at: ADAC 1000, AND, Sebring(this car was GOOD at Sebring-3 years, 3 PODIUMS!)...look at the pics and consider THAT fact...
Then compare it to the pics of the St. Jovite fire of 0814(essentially the same type of burn-from actual witnessess AND participants), the burns are so similar, it is easy to see why they are so frequently confused.
If memeory serves ME correctly, when questioned on the subjects, Dick Fritz opined that to the best of HIS memory of the incident, it was that: "it looked worse than it seemed, and that we probably "just fixed the car," because after all the metal of body work being so thin after it burns/melts AWAY, just frame and big stuff is left that does not burn so easily, it just wasn't THAT bad...lots of dirt on the car though."
Incredibly cavalier-in todays mindset-but through the prism of several decades of time, where no rational person would project valuations being what they are today, causes one to realize that "just an old racing car" was all it was, and we treated them as such, until they were completely, and thoroughly, used up...and we ALL "hoped some one asleep at the switch" would actually give some money for this "junk."
I digress..
These cars are lighter, sparser versions of an LM-in lay terms-and a fire looks bad, but the body is really all there is-aside from fuel and rubber..they ALL got rebuilt, and run again, for years, and years. Just to be clear here-having had an LM next to a P-car-they ARE similar, BUT an LM IS NOT a 250P with a roof. It is beyond the tanks, the rear banana lower body work of the clam, interior, etc. P frame is lighter guage and there is "LESS of it"-PERIOD. They are CLOSE relatives-NO QUESTION there, but, they are NOT, "roadster, hot rodded LMs. These lighter guage factors leads to countless fatigue cracks, and areas for future potential weldment/joint integrityfailures, these cars were ALL prone to burns...
The Prototipo LM-the 1 and ONLY 250LM-is famous for a re-fueling pit fire at a BIG FIA race-LM or Sebring, or, Daytona??? While a NART car? Same old saga-LOOKS AWFUL, racing again-SOON...NART was one of-was the most successful concessionaires.
0814 took over the lead and was the LM winner that year...
0810 was second, as I recall...
0816 was the winner the following year.
NONE has the original body-NONE.
Only 1(I'm told) has the complete, total original frame, 1 has almost none-but SO WHAT!!! {ALL scurrulous rumors and unsubstantiated as fact, by this poster}
These are NOT road cars, or, 50s "gentlman" boy racer cars which you can drive home after the race/event!!!..a-la-TdF, SWB, TRC, Mondials, MMs, Exports, HOT Cal Spyders{lets be real here...forget TRs-those are RACING cars, as are GTOs, ALL Dinos and SPs are F1 driver required cars as well...those are NOT anything but WORKS cars needing works pilots}
These were all driven by the F1 drivers, as WORKS cars, for ALL the marbles , every time out.
Original motors, gearboxes, and bodies, PUHLEEEZ...the facotry did not care of such things-WHY would they? Only scrutineers at the events care of such things...
I have been told by men who raced these models-for real-suspect that: of all P cars made, perhaps 60+% do NOT have the original frames that they had on the day they left the Factory on the transporters.
Personally, I have no idea as to the veracity of this opinion, but it sems realistic to me based on actual purpose and actual use of these cars and by the men who drove them...

The ultimate crazy quip is the: "was such and such correct?-in a picture of the "other one" at the "other race" it looks different...'
What was correct, was what won the race, and nothing else mattered-period.

These cars ARE different than the Road and Sports/GT cars, AND, MUST be viewed accordingly, as a different creature, that lived more savage lives, in a more savage world, Only to survive, at all, to be vintage raced-in any capacity-is a near miracle.
The degree of MECHANICAL restoration required, in part due to past lives-and incidents-combined with the car's inherent capabilities-and current monetary valuations-{only 2 or 3 cars sold in 25-30 years? ALL rumors-only...their locations, and ownership, are well documented due to rarity...yes?}.
Thus, making it a track safe ride, is an enormously costly venture...and enormously TIME consuming, as well...
But what a show it would be at Laguna in August.....
Is 0810 coming?
I assume with all of the posts, it must be???
0816-Pierre has not had it out of France in YEARS...
0812 and 0814 are still with CoCo(yes?)in Italy??
0820 Pierre sold(Oregon???), and the other ,
the ex-Ecclstone car is In Pacific NW as well?, but never been seen since they got that brace of cars in late 90s..
Fabrizio's(RIP) ex-Prothroe, long tailed car, got "dog tags", but there is, apparently, considerable consternation from the granstands on this topic...{how do you certify a car which was "written off" by the factory... in a fatality related testing crash?"}
I digress yet again...All one needs at that juncture is one of the period correct transport trucks!

These cars-P cars-are my personal faves{could ya tell?)for the 40 years I've been doing this stuff. I've been up close and personal, to ALL 4, at 1 time or another-I was offered to buy each of the 4 of them, at 1 time, or another, in last 35-40 years{0810, as it is pictured above in 1973, was the first-and by far the cheapest-I didn't do it because I could buy an LM for 10K, so the P was MUCH too expensive, and at the time, Don Fong seemed...well...I was unwilling to scam my trustees for money I couln't afford to lose to THAT guy...for one of those "italian red things"}

Consequently, I have come to know these rather well, and not at all from the "Historian" perspective-but that of a grease under the nails/practitioner perspective.
Frankly, better so with each passing day. As we age, true principle lust and interest lies- for me-solely in the area of what makes them tick, how they are made and assembled(and why)as nearly all spares are fabricated, what corners were "designed in" as areas to: "wiggle and cheat", based on application and acceptable loss margins...design in the failure/weak point to control the failures and confine costs such that-as the CFOs call "cost certainty"..Enzo was, if anything, a man who kept his eye on the bottom line-always...I have asked SantaClauz for blueprints this Christmas, if I'm a good boy...who knows?? I spend my vacations trying to strip mine the remaining/surviving men's memories of technical experiences and unexpected, real world pratfall areas, and, for ANY spare parts/boxes in the attics or garages.
Men who were active when these were campaigned, there are precious few who remain-especially here in USA.

How they handled the cars in situ, in season, in era, is more valuable than ANY notes, or pictures, or "stories", or other non-"we were there" scenarios. Real men, with REAL experience racing-NOT stories, NOT Vintage racing, NOT SCCA 7 years later...JUST, old guys, that mostly say: "We did it this way because": that was what worked at Daytona, N'Ring, Spa, LeMans, the Targa, etc. [For example:The noses were changed as the sesons evolved, because they didn't "work" in original release iteration-primarily, heat dissipation was the problem-not enough was understood, yet, about the aerodynamics UNDER the car, around it, in front of it, behind it...The curvy, early looks, are 'pretty"(old way), but the "slab-ier" siding flows better-don't know why, but it WORKS BETTER for the driver, and, ITS FASTER, and IT HANDLES with less effort.]

This was an exciting, seat of the pants, ERA. Form and beauty still ruled over function-initially. Stone cold results, cruel as they may be, ruled the roost...as it should based on the razor thin margins of differences then existant in that racing. Thus, it was also the END of this ERA-things were now changing-almost MONTHLY, not yearly...
Did I mention the increases-monthly-of costs, as well...
The money, one's results, are even more important, and affect the MONEY supply from sponsorhip accounts...The space age/space race has affected, it seems, ALL aspects of manufacturing technologies...worldwide.
The last artist's rendering/design for a P-car was the 330P/4-it utilised the burgeoning-yet ubiquitous-aerotunnel(wind tunnel)DURING the design process...but not yet were the bodies being designed by engineers FIRST, with a thought to how it looked as an afterthought. Hell, beauty is still a requisite and paramount consideration even today for Ferrari-and Italian culture as a whole-as oppossed to the computer generated models emenating from all of the design "houses" in Germany
In many ways, Ferrari is to be admired for the accomplishments of the P4 in this aspect of form over function, while being a machine, as opposed to the FORD, all out, win whatever, however, at no expense, rather a soul-less victory in the end...but wait, Ferrari won the Championship in 1967 ???
REMEMBER: For a perspective/gut check: a NART, privateer LM, won the 24 hours of LeMans in 1965, YOU CAN'T WIN, IF YOU CAN'T FINISH! Despite this notion, what is remarkable is also the notion that: some components are designeed and manufactured with a clear operational envelope/life span measured in hours before mean time failure!
Others are, clearly, in a hundred hours, others yet, in hundreds of hours-which is, effectively speaking here, years.
ALL things are finite, and are expected to be D&I, R&R, on a schedule..."SMOH" so to speak, for those aircraft guys out there...and as such, with proper attention to fuel system issues, the integrity of major frame stress load areas, these P cars-the beginning of the final wave of the golden age of racing(culminating in the greatest sports car in history)which ended as the decade itself ended-alomg with Ferrari and racing as we all know, love, cherish, and worship so dearly-could and should be able to last forever.
I shall endeavour, to my last breath in a shop environment, to do just that-as I've managed to keep it/them still ensconced in my field of view...
Someday, we'll se you at the track.
Whereever you 250/275P-Cars are...
"Let's go racing, and see which car is fastest!!??"

 

some amazing info there. nothing beats real deal commentary from people who actually breathed life into the machines when they were new.

 

Through the night...
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From Logan Bentley's column in Autoweek, March 2nd, 1968:

"Since Ferrari won't help any of the P-3 owners modify their engines to 3 liters, Piper is making a study and if successful will convert P-3's for other owners which include the Scuderia Filipinetti (Swiss) and Ecurie National Belge (Belgian). US Ferrari importer Luigi Chinetti also has a P-3 which, as of this moment, is only worth its weight as scrap metal. When Ferrari heard a rumor Luigi was planning to convert his car to 3 liters he fired off a nasty Telex but so far he's refused to sell P-3 owners the old 3-liter engines he's got lying around."

As I understand this, the regulations for 1968 allowed prototypes to run with engines up to 3 liters, so the old P/3 and P/4 variations COULD have been used in the World Championship if they had been converted from their larger 4.4 liter engines down to 3 liters. In order to run the larger engines, they would have needed to build something like 150 of them, and I found one article that suggested that Ferrari and Pininfarina were planning to build that many of the P/5's, which of course was nonsense if they had to be built in time to run the 1968 Championship.

 

Prototypes in 68 had to be 3 liter. The 330 412P's (Not P 3's as P 3's had FI) were 4 liter (not 4.4 Liter) but a different Typo than P 4 engines with different blocks.

P 4 blocks can be set up as either 3 or 4 Liter by changing Crank Journals and Piston Skirt Height. Ferrari themselves did this by running this block in F1 (3 Liters) and P (4 Liters).

Prototypes could be any number. (The Le Mans MK-IV's were only 4 cars) Production Sport Cars could be 5 Liter and you needed 50 examples (not 150) which is why The Ford MK I could run at Le Mans in 68 and 69.

P 5 was 3 liter (non running) so it could have raced as a Prototype even as one car but the truth was Ferrari looked at Porsche and took a rest. Sadly Ferrari hasn't won Le Mans since 1965.

 

at Daytona?

 

Yes (#23)

 

http://www.laprecord.com/index.htm


Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2010 model/photo contest-Chicago April 24th 2010

 

Quote: 'From Logan Bentley's column in Autoweek, March 2nd, 1968:

"....US Ferrari importer Luigi Chinetti also has a P-3 which, as of this moment, is only worth its weight as scrap metal..." '

How things change. It would still now be worth somewhere near it's weight in scrap metal, just that the metal is gold:

Gold = £23/g = £23000/kg x 800kg = £18.4m = $27.7m

 

In the 1950s there was a movie titled "The Solid Gold Cadillac." Maybe the sequel will be called "The Solid Gold Ferrari"! Fred

 

Getting ready for Spring...
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Sorry Mr. G- the OCD in me couldn't stand it:
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A few more for clean up from that site:



Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2010 model/photo contest-Chicago April 24th 2010
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Spring Service.
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0846 Sandwich.

Those were the days...
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Note how lean J6 was running.

 

Maybe it was the lead in the fuel, my Alfa always had a nice grey exhaust after a hard drive on the Autobahn, in the days when there was lead in the fuel (until about 1990 in Europe).

 

That could be. The Black soot is because in the day they vented the oil breather under the car and even with little oil consumption the rear sooted up.