The cats are in! So is the tubi | FerrariChat

The cats are in! So is the tubi

Discussion in '360/430' started by RayJohns, Jul 24, 2006.

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  1. RayJohns

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    #1 RayJohns, Jul 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Okay, I'm pleased to report that I have completed installing my Tubi and the hyper flow cats on the 360. Many thanks to Lou at Tubi and the guys at T. Rutlands for the Tubi. Also to Kevin at MVP for the cats and to Troy at hyper-flow.com for his follow up calls.. all you guys were great and the customer support, etc. was awesome.

    I did the job myself and it took about 15 hours. It would have been less (maybe 3 or 4 hours less), but I ran into a few problems with adjustments and clamping problems. Re-aligning the rear bumper perfectly was a pain.

    The clamps between the Tubi and the hyper flow cats gave me some problems. I think if I had been using the stock cats, it would have not been an issue, but because the hyper flow cats and the tubi were both highly polished, the clamps had a difficult time working (although once everything heated up, I think it sealed up more). It's a long story; one I don't want to re-live - just let me say it's best to install the clamps with the screws facing up, not down, as you aren't always going to have that rear bumper off! :)

    I'll attach a few photos here.

    Getting the proper alignment on the tail pipes was a trick also - and that's a polite way to put it. I ended up having to wedge some wood on the left side, then once it was set correctly, I re-tightened everything down. That did the trick. Getting the cats on can be a little bit of a hassle, but you can work via the wheel wells if you don't feel like taking the bottom areo panel off the car.

    Here is a break down of the weight on everything.

    STOCK:
    --------------------------------------------
    Exhaust canister - 52.5 lbs
    Exhaust tips - 8.5 each (17 lbs total)
    Factory Cats - 13.25 each (26.5 lbs total)
    Total weight of factory system = 96.0 lbs

    TUBI and HYPER FLOW CATS:
    --------------------------------------------
    Exhaust canister - 40.0 lbs
    Exhaust tips - 13.25 lbs (total)
    Hyper Flow cats - 6.5 lbs each (13 lbs total)
    Total weight of Tubi & hyper flow system = 66.25 lbs

    Total weight savings = 29.75 lbs

    The sound is amazing. Sort of sounds like a cross between an F1 car and a helicopter. It's a hair louder than I was hoping for at idle, but I'll live. The people who live around me might not like it rattling their windows, but if you want absolute quiet, buy a farm. I noticed it set off a car alarm the other day when I was going down the block! :) There is a bit of a resonance at 2500 to 3000 which is a touch annoying, but again, nothing you can't live with. Once you get rolling, it's fine and goes away. The sound is as good, although different, than my 355 with a tubi and stock cats. The 360 now has more of a powerful sound and there are no more valves to open up, so the exhaust note is constant as you accelerate. The car sounds great compared to stock. It has an amazing exhaust note. When you decelerate, there is a little bit of a burble, but not too much.

    HP gains.. no way to know unless I put it on a dyno. I'm going to guess 20 or so mid-range based on what I've been told and maybe 10 at top end. From what I understand the cats add more power mid-range, as compared to top end. I don't know how much the Tubi and cats together add, maybe it's 20 maybe it's 30. I really would only be guessing. I believe I have heard 15 or 20 on the Tubi from customers who have dyno'd it and reported back to Tubi, so 30 for both seems pretty reasonable in the mid range.

    It seems like there is more heat in the engine compartment. The cats have already turned a cool blue/golden color. The tubi looks great sitting in there as well. I have the challenge grill, but still, it seems a bit hotter when I get back from a drive.

    I'll get some more photos when I have a chance. In the meantime, here are some from installing it. I'll also see if I can get an audio or video clip happening in the near future. The sound is something else! :)

    Ray
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  2. MufflerMan

    MufflerMan Formula 3

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    Ray, welcome to the world of long hours on your Ferrari in the driveway. Been there done that. Good for you not subsiding to the intimidation of working on your car. I love the Tubi, great choice, and will add value to the car unlike most of the other exhaust systems out there. Look forward to the sound clips! Thanks for the post.
     
  3. AutoXer

    AutoXer Formula Junior

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    Thanks for sharing your work with us. It is much appreciated and very informative.
     
  4. RayJohns

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    btw, I meant to mention that the car was too low to get the jacks under it. So what I ended up doing was driving the rear wheels up onto a a couple of pine 2x10's. That lifted it up just enough so that I could get the jacks under both sides. I had to cut little wood square also to fit in the wholes where the jack goes. Then I just went back and forth jacking the car up a little on each side.
     
  5. F430SilverArrow

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    Slacker...just kidding. Insane dedication to doing it yourself. I am sure it was extremely rewarding. Congrads.
     
  6. zorzos

    zorzos Karting

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    It's very nice thing to do it by your self, but only when you have done it and you realize that everything is o.k. ! How the car respondes to the gus pedal now and how is the feeling of driving it against the stock set up ?
     
  7. RayJohns

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    I just get a kick out of doing the work myself. I used to build motors and modify cars when I was younger.. 360 is just a real fancy Datsun if you ask me :)

    it's rewarding to do the work yourself and become more familiar with the car.

    Ray
     
  8. RayJohns

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    Rev off idle is a little quicker. Seems like there is a little smoother take away from a stop. Power is good.. it's difficult to tell if there is more power. Sound is great.
     
  9. zorzos

    zorzos Karting

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    Power is good.. it's difficult to tell if there is more power. [/QUOTE]
    I believe that if you have gain around 20-30 hp it must be noticeable when you drive the car for the first time after the change........
     
  10. stephens

    stephens F1 Rookie
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    Realistically there woulb be a power gain from the Hyperflow cats and a power loss from the Tubi's. Changing from Tubi's to a proper performance muffler netted a 15rwhp gain on my car. Tubi's do sound great though...
     
  11. RayJohns

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    I believe Tubi mentioned some customers had dyno'd their cars and saw a 15 or 20 HP gain. Hard to say without doing a run before/after yourself. I tend to believe Tubi knows what they are doing when it comes to building exhausts.
     
  12. RayJohns

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    hard to say, I haven't driven the car all that much since the install or really had a chance to open it up. On the 355, it was easier to notice, since I had driven the car a lot previously, then install the Tubi and drove a lot from there.
     
  13. stephens

    stephens F1 Rookie
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    I find that extremely hard to believe, as I have before and after dyno's on my car that show the exact opposite. You only need a basic understanding of how mufflers work and to look at the design of the Tubi to understand why it performs poorly. If there were real power gains, every Tubi reseller would have a before and after dyno graph posted on their website, like Hyperflow does. On the positive side, I sold my Tubi's today and received as much as a whole custom race exhaust system cost to build, so they've got solid resale value! To my mind at least, Tubi is about sound, not performance.
     
  14. ferrarilou

    ferrarilou Formula Junior

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    Can you tell us which proper performance muffler you used? I had used small Borla mufflers when I had my Mondial T and liked them alot. Not sure if this is in line with what you are describing above.


    Lou
     
  15. stephens

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    Custom made, straight through. Talk to one of the sponsors, Daniel at Harmony is switched on when it comes to header/muffler/exhaust system fabrication, for example.
     
  16. Tomf-1

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    ray,

    i commend you for a job well done.....looks great.
     
  17. Harmonyautosport

    Harmonyautosport Formula Junior

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    High flow cats are an excellent upgrade for the 360 as the factory units are heavy, very restrictive, and retain a lot of heat. Exhaust on the other hand is very tricky. Tubi sounds very nice but there is little weight savings and customers have reported actually losing power from them. I don’t have dyno graphs to prove that but if more then 2 customers say the same thing I will take there word on it. We have been developing an exhaust system for over 5 months for the 360 and 430. They will be complete in mid August. Believe me we did our home work and they look nothing like tubi units. Ray also thanks for the write up very detailed. And trust me first time around its very hard and annoying but im sure you can take care of it in less then 5 hours now.
     
  18. RayJohns

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    I find it hard to believe a louder exhaust means less power.. just based on the fact that if more noise is getting through, it probably means it flows more freely. In any event, I'm just passing along what Tubi says. I have no dyno sheets either way.

    Ray
     
  19. RayJohns

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    The Tubi is a little ligher than the stock (as outlined above) - when I removed everything, I used a shipping scale to weigh the light parts and a regular scale to weigh the cans.

    I don't have dyno sheets, nor am I putting my car on a dyno to find out. Tubi stated that several of their customers had installed Tubi exhausts and gained 15 or 20 HP (if I recall the #'s correctly). I think they indicated 3 customers had reported back. So it's difficult to say. I don't believe ferrari is known for their exhaust systems. Tubi (from what I am told) works closely with Ferrari. The 355 tubi I had did seem to make the car a little more snappy through the gears. As far as the 360, I couldn't tell you either way.

    I agree that the Cats probably are the 'weak link' in the exhaust system and upgrading those is money well spent. The hyper flow cats are really a work of art and I like how light they are compared to stock. They look great in there and I bet they do improve the flow quite a bit.

    If anyone has a photo of a Tubi cut open, I'd be interested to see it. I still have the stock exhaust.. maybe I'll fire up the die-grinder next time I have a minute and open up the stock exhaust and grab some photos.

    I'll tell ya one thing for sure... those Harmony headers are bad-fing-ass! :)

    Ray
     
  20. Harmonyautosport

    Harmonyautosport Formula Junior

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    Thanks for the kind words ray. You havnt seen bad ass headers yet...... our 550/575 v12 headers are jsut about complete......Drooool.
     
  21. RayJohns

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    In going over some of the old posts regarding the 360 and dyno results (specifically the couple included here), I think you can get a good feeling for how things sort out as far as a stock 360 vs. a 360 with a tubi and hyper flow cats. From this posting:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4421

    It appears that you can draw a few conclusions (yes, sure, this isn't as good as running a dyno yourself, each time you adjust the car, but it's all I have at the moment :). First, the drop in HP due to the drivetrain on the 360 appears to be some place around the 20% to 23% range. That seems to be a pretty reasonable figured from what I have read and know about dynos. We are going to have to go with it, unless someone wants to pull their motor and rig it up to a dyno :)

    In his posting, Heiko notes that the stock 360 dyno results come in around 307HP at the rear wheels. Heiko is a stand up guy, so I have no reason to doubt his numbers. This also confirms a roughly 23% drive train drop, since if you extrapolate back 307HP based on a 23% loss through the gears, you arrive back at approximately 399HP for the stock 360 at the flywheel.

    Okay, so using this post below:

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106437

    It appears Hubert has included a dyno result of a stock 360 equipped with a Tubi, K&N filters and capristo silenced pipes. I'm guessing the silenced pipes replace the factory cats, but I'm not sure. My guess is they are straight pipes with a glass-pack affair built in? Maybe Hubert can confirm what he had in there prior to the TT.

    In any event, his pre-twin turbo dyno sheet for that configuration shows about 333HP at the rear wheels with the Tubi and pipes. Before you ask, no I don't know the temp diff between where Hubert lives and where Heiko lives, nor do I know the different in elevation. I also don't know if either of the dyno operators had just finished smoking crack the night before...

    Be that as it may, if you use the 23% loss figure on the 333HP that Hubert shows (at the wheels), then it extrapolates back to a HP reading of approximately 432HP (at the flywheel). That's about an 8% increase on account of the Tubi and removal of the cats.

    Anyway, while it's not a true dyno run, it's at least some estimates based on what other people have posted. Naturally, it would be great to hear from Hubert and/or Heiko on this posting - but I think my logic is pretty sound.

    Ray
     
  22. MufflerMan

    MufflerMan Formula 3

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    I think that Tubi is king of the hill here. It has been around a long time, has built a good reputation with the Ferrari community (enough to have a relationship with the factory), and have proved the most liked in sound. That said, what is the point of King of the Hill, to knock him off so you can be King. Tubi is easily the most attacked system because they have proven themselves as one of the best. Don't forget it's easy to make a peak HP claims that may be factual, but are not useable in the real world. I would rather have 10 hp everywhere in the power band than 20hp on the last 500rpm before having to shift.
     
  23. RayJohns

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    All good points. In speaking with Troy at hyper flow, I believe he indicated that the cats add 15 or 20 HP (can't remember now which he said) in the mid-range and about 8 HP at the top end. The mid-range is where it really helps the most, since that is where you are all the time. Like you say, top end HP is great, but for the breif moments I'm at 8500 RPM I would rather see some HP gains lower down.

    I'm going to try and get a little video clip of the car going through the tunnel or something.

    Ray
     
  24. stephens

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    Ray
    I aplogise in advance if in this post it appears that I am trying to give you a hard time, but I think it is important to be clear and correct in perfromance claims. it is all to easy for someone else to draw incorrect conclusions, as you appear to have done and make incorrect decisions based on this information.

    Dyno Readings
    It is hard enough to compare the same car on the same dyno on different days under different conditions, let alone different cars on different dynos under different conditions. I'm afraid the comparisons and analysis you have used are useless and plain wrong. I can show three dyno's of my car which differ by 20%. The lowest on a Dynodynamics using older software currently reads 300kw at the rear wheels, on another dyno it shows 330kw at the rear wheels, on a Dynodynamics with the latest software it shows over 360kw at the rear wheels,on a Dynojet it would read approx 375kw. The point is that I know about the differences between them and can tell within 5kw what the reading of any of them will be once I have a reading on one.
    Specifically Huberts base numbers are no corrected, meaning there is a +/-5% variance depending on atmospheric conditions in his baseline numbers. Additionally it is on a Dynojet, widely known as the highest reading dyno on the market. On a Dynojet accepted drive train losses for a manual car are 15-18% MAXIMUM no where near the 23% you are quoting. My car on a Dynojet would run significantly higher than the Dynodynamics in shootout mode. Anyone here with Dyno experience can confirm this.
    I have just checked - The dyno chart of the 360 in Heiko's thread is on a Dynodynamics dyno not a Dynojet, soyou are trying to compare numbers from different brands of dyno, which dependent on software versions and operating mode are as little as 5% different and as much as 15%, not counting atmospheric variations (corrections). As an aside the calcs by Heiko converting kw to HP are incorrect. There are 1.34 SAE hp to a kw, not 1.36, which is the non SAE conversion.

    Tubi Design
    For those that don't get it the Tubi "muffles" by bouncing the sound waves off a flat plate welded to the inside of the canister. It has offset holes (approx 2" in diameter) for the exhause gases to eventually escape after bouncing around, to the exit side of the canister. The Tubi gets it sound from tuning the resonance of the chamber by playing with the size of the hole, volume of the canister and placement of the plate. It is not a performance design, it is a text book case of what NOT to do in a performance muffler. There is no point on the power curve where the Tubi is more effeciant than a properly designed muffler.

    Now, you can accept it for what it is, a beautifully made and sounding muffler and forgive it, it's failings, but do not kid yourselves into thinking it is something that it is not. Remember I have no equity in this argument, I am only a customer who has done more dyno runs and tuning than most shops. All I care about is the real results, not making customers, or potential customers happy.
     
  25. Townshend

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    Any audio clips? :)
     

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