355 Valve Guide issues | FerrariChat

355 Valve Guide issues

Discussion in '348/355' started by louthancomp, Feb 15, 2007.

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  1. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    #1 louthancomp, Feb 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  2. UConn Husky

    UConn Husky F1 Rookie

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    #2 UConn Husky, Feb 15, 2007
    Great pics, thanks for sharing! Hey, just wondering, do you have any valve springs you could spare? Either broken or otherwise not being used? I'm interested in reverse engineering how they were made....
     
  3. bcwawright

    bcwawright F1 Veteran

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    #3 bcwawright, Feb 15, 2007
    How much do you charge for doing the valve guides and 3 angle valve seats on the 355?
    Nice work.
    Bruce
     
  4. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

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    #4 gothspeed, Feb 16, 2007
    Joe @ concourse ferrari in la habra installed the silicon bronze upgrades on my 1997 F355 :D. Now I will be needing a set of exhaust manifolds.
     
  5. notoboy

    notoboy F1 Rookie

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    #5 notoboy, Feb 16, 2007
    QV London all the way!
     
  6. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
    87
    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    #6 louthancomp, Feb 16, 2007
    Nope I sure don't. Ferrari guys are funny about wanting all their old parts back
     
  7. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    #7 louthancomp, Feb 16, 2007
    Thanks! I normally get around $1800 labor for replacing guides and doing the valve job. I don't remember the break down on parts and I'm not at the shop where I can go look, but if you replace all the valves, the total bill (parts and labor) has been right around $2500. I almost always replace atleast the exhaust valves but if the guy isn't sqeaking too bad I like to replace them all.
     
  8. bcwawright

    bcwawright F1 Veteran

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    #8 bcwawright, Feb 17, 2007
    Thanks for the info, I'll be giving you a call.......
     
  9. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Salem, Oregon
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    Robert Louthan
    #9 louthancomp, Feb 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here are a few more pics from the current 355 guide replacement. I took a picture of the bronze shavings that came from boring the old guides out. When you machine a hard metal like the bronze that will go back into these heads, it sounds like you're cutting glass and it comes out in chips. When you machine a soft metal like some aluminum, some softer steels, and these original Ferrari bronze, it sounds like you're cutting butter and it comes out like string. This helps give an idea of just how soft these things are.
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  10. chaa

    chaa F1 Veteran

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    #10 chaa, Feb 18, 2007
    Thanks for posting them pics and info dude. this is what its all about, knowledge is power and all that.
     
  11. cavlino

    cavlino Formula 3
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    #11 cavlino, Feb 18, 2007
    Wow, this is very informative, thanks for posting and sharing with the rest of us.
     
  12. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    #12 louthancomp, Feb 18, 2007
    This is what I get for trying to quote numbers without looking.... I thought it sounded wrong. The valve guides are $20 each and there are 40 of them, and seals are $4 each, so with my labor, that's $2760... that's where the $2500 figure came from. Valves are around $65 each, so if you need valves the bill nearly doubles, and as I mentioned, at the very least I like to replace the exhaust valves. Sorry for the mis-information.
     
  13. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

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    #13 gothspeed, Feb 18, 2007
    Sounds good to me... :)
     
  14. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Robert Louthan
    #14 louthancomp, Feb 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  15. bayareaferrari

    bayareaferrari Formula Junior

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    #15 bayareaferrari, Feb 19, 2007
    Are these the sames as the Phsosporous bronze guides?
     
  16. gothspeed

    gothspeed F1 World Champ

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    #16 gothspeed, Feb 19, 2007
    They look good!! :)
     
  17. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

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    #17 louthancomp, Feb 19, 2007
    Nope. I honestly don't know what the diff is, but they are different. K-Line guides are phosphorous bronze and they are copper colored like the crappy Ferrari guides. BUT, they are durable; when installed properly I've seen them go 100K miles. One of these days I'll find a really good book on metallurgy and get it all figured out!
     
  18. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

    Feb 9, 2007
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    Robert Louthan
    #18 louthancomp, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well this project is nearly finished. I got a couple good pics of the valve job and I want to point out the 3 angles. From the factory there is only one, the 45 degree seat. But a seat has 3 functions; to seal the port, to guide the air/fuel into and out of the cylinder, and to cool the valve. Theoretically the more angles a seat has the more air it will flow. But, if the given angle is to have any width, there's only room for so many, usually about 3. We're currently looking in to the possibility of installing 1mm oversized valves in these heads. This would allow more air flow and give room for an even better valve job. Enjoy the pictures!
    ~Rob
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  19. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

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    #19 Birdman, Feb 21, 2007
    Cool!!
     
  20. Samy

    Samy Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2005
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    #20 Samy, Feb 21, 2007
    Uh i never saw valve guides in that color did they recycle their pennys/cents for the valve guides? Or did they forget to add alloy, iron and maybe even a bit beryllium to the copper to get a good bronze :)
     
  21. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

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    #21 louthancomp, Feb 22, 2007
    Which guides are you referring to, the originals or the replacements? Both are a common color for a bronze valve guide but more often than not they look like the brass colored guides.
     
  22. Samy

    Samy Formula Junior

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    #22 Samy, Feb 22, 2007
    To the original copper ones. If they are not golden its missing important contants to make it durable. Like iron and alloy.
     
  23. louthancomp

    louthancomp Karting

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    Robert Louthan
    #23 louthancomp, Feb 22, 2007
    Well, that probably explains why they don't last. Sounds like you know your metals? I'd love to know more about how these things are put together... different recipes for different alloys etc. The K-Line valve guide liners are a phosphorous bronze and they are that same copper color. But they are very durable. When installed right I've seen them go 100K plus miles
     
  24. bcwawright

    bcwawright F1 Veteran

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    #24 bcwawright, Feb 23, 2007
    Hey Rob.....doesn't look like there is enough room for a larger valve(1mm)...I
    thought by reducing the aluminum between valve seats you would reduce the cooling effect on the valve seat/valve and there is a greater chance of the aluminum fatiguing which produces tiny cracks that could cause even the best valve seat job to loosen up....not to mention the other disastrous problems as a result of these hairline cracks. Your thoughts on this?
    If you were to persue an oversize valve where would you find these??....or would you machine them yourself??........how about a sodium filled ss valve for the exhaust to help dissapate the heat......this is what we used to do on the 935 and 962 Porsche turbo race motors.

    Bruce

    BTY....Do you polish the aluminum chambers at the exhaust/intake areas after doing the valve guides and 3 angle valve seat??????
     
  25. Samy

    Samy Formula Junior

    Dec 2, 2005
    603
    #25 Samy, Feb 23, 2007
    I only know the basics of the metals. And a durable bronze has normaly iron and aloy in it and that makes the bronze look golden. If there is no iron alloy in it like in phospor bronze its still copper colored but with phospor you also get strength but normaly then the bronze is very hard and the valves can wear. The valve guides we produce are with iron , aloy, berylium and always golden. Also all competition cylinder heads i saw till now had golden valve guides.

    The space between the inlet and exhaust valves are big enough to fit bigger valves in i wouldn't put a 1mm os valve in you have enough space to get a even bigger one in! The costs are the same. On a N/A car you can go so far that the valve seats touch each other. The alloy of the head should be at least 300-350n/mm² strong. If you turbocharge the engine there must be some more material between the valve seats to avoid cracking. On the picture its near maximum for a long time durability on a turbocharged head. http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2277/dscf0572pe8.jpg

    The stock 355 exhaust valves are already sodium filled or? On a engine were high performance is asked i would only use sodium filled valves or good inconel steel or niomic steel.
     
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