3 inch 575 exhaust and images

Discussion in '456/550/575' started by Trabots, Apr 28, 2012.

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  1. Trabots

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    #1 Trabots, Apr 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I posted some images last week in the technical Q&A in MAF vs MAP thread, here they are again. The Tubi tips shown are only stock diameter. They are being replaced with 3 inch in/out cans. Because they encourage bigger bangs and lose less exhaust energy going through, the big pipes need more silencing. The car is louder despite the 3inch x 36inch resonators compared to the same Tubi tips on the no muffler stock exhaust. The "classic V-12 sound" they make would please all of you and make the change worthwhile despite the big power increase you would have to live with. The cost was $6k for the pipe fabrication. A pair of high flow cats could easily be welded into the cat delete pipes if needed.

    Stop watch testing in 3rd gear from 100kph to 160kph (4850 - 7500 rpm) has shown repeatable 3.8 sec. Realising we are not exactly comparing the same thing because you would normally have a 2-3 shift in that speed interval, the times achieved match EVO's 599 time of 3.9 sec and wallop the 575 time of 5.4 sec for the similar 60-100mph interval.

    Yes Darth550 "You're right, 3" exhausts do blow hard." They will blow your blouses right off. And when I get my ECU's re-mapped by DMS or Powerchip I look forward to posting some accurate performance data on this thread.
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  2. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    Ok, I'll bite ;) Are you trying to suggest that your exhaust is responsible for dropping the 100 km/h to 160 km/h acceleration from 5.4 sec to 3.8 sec?
    Jes
     
  3. Trabots

    Trabots Formula Junior
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    Not quite, I used 3rd gear only without a shift. As my car is a manual and 2-3rd is the slowest shift, I wanted an uninterrupted run up through the main power band for consistency and comparability. That interval is also easily correlated to any road test for 60-100mph. I did point out that if I was doing say 0-160kph I would have not shifted out of 2nd at 100kph and therefore that interval up to 160kph would have been increased by the time taken to shift. When I first got the car it did 4.5 sec with no cans, just the Tubi tips. Throw in a shift and it could be over 5 sec. Conversely, offsetting the shift time savings is the fact that I am starting the clock with the rpm at only 4,850 so that is a negative to performance. How much that loss compares to the shift time gain I cannot say. What the numbers do show is that apples to apples my car has improved from 4.5sec to 3.8sec with no tune optimisation for the bigger pipes. Both DMS and Powerchip quote roughly 40hp improvement on a stock 575. I am quite confident a tune from either will give double that with the 3inch pipes. I did also make two K&N air filters out of 3 550/456 filters. K&N don't make a 575 filter.
     
  4. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
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    I see. 80 HP increase from "only" exhaust and mapping is pretty good.
     
  5. cwwhk

    cwwhk Formula 3
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    Very nice.
     
  6. wbklink

    wbklink F1 Rookie
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    That's very cool Willy...

    Nice job,

    Bill
     
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  8. Condor Man

    Condor Man Formula 3
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    Far, Far Away....
    Great work.

    How is the sound?

    Can you up load a video on YouTube?
     
  9. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper F1 Rookie
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    I don't need an audio/video recording to know that exhaust LOOKS way too loud.

    I'll keep my blouse on, thanks. I may unbutton it a little though. lol.

    Cheers,

    George
     
  10. redcaruser

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    #9 redcaruser, Apr 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Willy, that's hot!
    Am I right: you are using these TubiStyle muffler replacement pipes?
    ...and yes, an audition would be great.
    Regards, D.
    TubiStyle_Ersatzrohr02.jpg
     
  11. Trabots

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    These are what came with the car. The car is actually ok inside it is probably too loud outside however. I have a couple of can styles to try, both 3inch in/out. I am also getting the Tubis enlarged to 3inch in with the same tips. I forgot to mention the overrun is fabulous. Mini explosions.
     
  12. Playframe King

    Playframe King Formula Junior

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    Thats a fantastic fabrication - great job -thanks for sharing !!
    must be well loud !! - wouldnt meet the regs over here !
    great HP increase too - keep going !!
    regards
    ps - I have used straight through Borla boxes - worth a look for you?
     
  13. 308 GTB

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    Willy,

    Nice exhaust system! But I'm curious as to why you have those constrictions in the middle of your center straight pipes and insulation around the intermediate pipes.

    Barry
     
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  15. Trabots

    Trabots Formula Junior
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    Barry,

    All was well when the system was first installed however when it heated up it interfered with the manual gear shift linkage on the left side. I took it apart and using a ball peen hammer put a couple of small dents where I saw my heat tape had been rubbing. It was rubbing on the right side of the transaxle housing also. Not ideal but all was fine after that. The dents are small and the flow restriction must be marginal. There is enough room that a future cosmetic rebuild in those areas would have the pipes clearanced to allow for the expansion. I also am not that pleased with the slight lack of symmetry you can see in the under car image. Not bad for a 1st effort by my young stainless welder however. The whole system grows in length by around 10mm when hot. I guess I did a Ferrari with that primitive fix.

    As the stock pipes have tin heat shields and I decided to play it safe and wrap the pipes after the resonators. There are no heat issues that I can see.
     
  16. 308 GTB

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    #14 308 GTB, Apr 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Willy,

    You might have some leeway with the slip joints to get your system symmetric.

    That's true about the 1 cm growth of the system when hot. The tips don't stick out this far when my car isn't being used...
    Pocono 4a.JPG
     
  17. Trabots

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    The welder insisted on using V-band connectors which give nil adjustment. The advantage when everything is right is that they stay that way. They also allow quick removal of the exhaust system or part thereof. I purchased extra flanges so that in 10 minutes I will be able to change from Tubi tips to a muffler and I am installing on the factory cans so in a pinch I can pass a noise test if needed. You can see the connectors clearly at the rear of the cat deletes. I have them over the axle and also at the rear. Also as the system becomes rigid when the clamps are tightened I did not need the hanger assembly at the front and it seems the next ones at the side of the transmission are not really doing much either now.

    I sure hope you try the big exhaust and pass a few 599s on your track days.
     
  18. darth550

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    Gotta have a sound byte! Have you avoided the buzzsaw sound?
     
  19. 2000 456M

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    Gotta hear the sound. My Tubi doesn't seem all that loud from inside the car, but my wife tells me she knows I'm coming home 3 minutes before I get there.
     
  20. 308 GTB

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    #18 308 GTB, Apr 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I've never seen any 599s on the track at events.

    Right now, my 550 is set up with second generation Tubis and staright center pipes. It sounds like this in 5th gear at speed...




    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVbd_133hpk[/ame]





    (4:50 6:16 7:58 and 9:48)


    That's not a wall in the background in the picture below. That's the 31.5 degree banking!
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  21. Trabots

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    No buzz saw, no drone. The noise is a deeper than it was, sounds like a bigger engine. It may be awhile before I can let you hear it, I am away until Sept so the 575 will be asleep by June. You can easily converse while cruising. When cold with the high idle it is unsociable, in my mind. That is why I am trying some small cans. As you all know, it is easy to control the sound with the right foot once driving. I start the 575 and leave as quickly as I can and keep the revs low in higher gears until warmed up, just like the bikes.
     
  22. oss117

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    Which track is that Barry?
    A.
     
  23. 308 GTB

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    Alfredo,

    That's Daytona International Speedway.

    Barry
     
  24. gatorgreg

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    I have a 575. I run the x-pipe and standard tubi's. I was thinking about changing the headers. Does anyone make a racing header for the 575?
     
  25. Matt@CampioniShop

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    #23 Matt@CampioniShop, Apr 30, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Yes sir!

    These long tube headers need to be mounted with the 100 CPSI HJS catalytic converters from SuperSprint. The system is oversized at 2x60mm. We have 1 set in stock and are willing to pass along discounts on the catted system to get these objectively reviewed.

    The full catted system was dyno tested on the SuperAmerica (540hp Euro) and showed gains from the standard 495whp to 541whp with no tune. By the dyno sheet, you can clearly see the bottleneck of the stock system is in the high RPM range - this is mainly due to the headers as they do not promote enough exhaust velocity for ultimate gains.
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  26. Trabots

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    The headers would be the ultimate final stage improvement to a 3inch exhaust. They will not however do all they can if they have to push the exhaust through undersized pipes. The gain will be largely only from losing the restriction of the primary cats. To get the full scavenging effect of headers you need to free up your exhaust. You should enlarge the pipes first. No hot rodder puts headers on a car with a factory exhaust. I know your x-pipes are not stock however they no doubt are still only 2 1/4 inch. 3inch pipes have 78% more flow area than 2 1/4inch. However those lovely headers combined with 3inch pipes would result in well over 600bhp on a 575 and make it as quick as a 599, except of course a 599 with 3inch pipes.
     
  27. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie
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    Would those headers fit a 456 GT?
     
  28. Matt@CampioniShop

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    Unfortunately SuperSprint never got a 456 in for exhaust development! We have 550/575/599/612 headers for the V12s.
     
  29. oss117

    oss117 F1 Rookie
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    Then you do have one also for the 456, as the engine is the same as the 550 / 575 as is the basic architecture of the car.
     
  30. kane00

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    Did you ever put together a video of how it sounds?
     
  31. Trabots

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    In the July 2012 issue 600 CAR magazine from the UK there is a fabulous underside photo of the F12 without the underbody. Check out what seems to be a 3inch minimum sized exhaust system from the cats back. I would bet that the biggest portion of the extra 225bhp over a 575M has come from the free flowing exhaust. Most of the rest has come from a half litre more displacement and more than a 1000rpm extra. The smallest contributor will have been from new engine and engine management technology. I am of the opinion that Ferrari purposely choked back the output of the 575M to allow easy bhp improvements in the succeeding 599 and F12 models. They did this by squashing the too small exhaust in places or they were just idiots, which I somehow doubt was the case.

    As an aside, what happened in the F12 to the flow through buttresses which supposedly conferred an aerodynamic advantage in the 599? Those holes in the bonnet 'feeding' the Nike swoops will also fail to appear on the F12's successor. Surely if these are credible aero tweeks they would cumulate on each succeeding model? Just design features with a technical reason thought up afterwards to give credibility? Just my opinion.
     
  32. TZ 750

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  33. Trabots

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    QUOTE]

    Interesting thinking here.

    If one could spend $8,000 on the exhaust of a 575, and
    have 599 level horsepower, it would be a LOT less expensive
    than getting the 599 itself.

    I wonder if Ferrari would "deliberately" de-tune the 575, in favor
    of the later 599, and the subsequent F12 ?

    $8000 / 80 HP = $100 / HP. Not a bad deal.

    I would have to see a dyno sheet of before / after
    to be fully convinced though.

    Scott[/QUOTE]

    Scott, you get it mate. The 575 is the best Ferrari deal going, awesome classic front engined V12 and now easily upgraded to 599 performance. My hand held 60-100mph times (3.7sec best) have equalled or bettered the 599 times (3.9sec) quoted in EVO and creamed the stock 575 (5.4sec) also from EVO. I have purchased a Racelogic GPS performance computer like the car magazines use for their data, and should have some accurate times when I return home in September. This will be the "dyno" and is just as valid. Take off the weight saved from the 575's exhaust and it still weighs more than a 599. Logic says if the on road performance matches then the horsepower must be at least equal. That is over 100bhp and still without a re-map. That is the best hp improvement I have ever seen with just an exhaust, however if you look at what was there previously it does makes some sense.
     
  34. WilyB

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    These headers are a piece of art!

    I have a question though: the dyno shows engine power (Motorleistung) at 534.6 hp, wheel power (radleistung) at 411.5 hp and power loss (scheppleistung) at 123.1 hp or a high 23%.

    Is it normal on a 575M?

    I thought a commonly accepted figure was around 15% for a manual transmission and 20% for one with a torque converter?
     

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