308 F.I. plastic lines to injectors - Weak design?

The Portuguese importer of Cohline will only sell 1,000 meters .... I guess they think they're in the US!
So I'm back at the English representative. Let's see what I can find

 

I have asked the guy in Portugal about how to get the hose in place and he said "use boiling hot water, dip the hose for a couple of minutes and insert the connector"

 

We now know that the OEM barbs were pressed directly into the end of a 2mm ID tube, I'm leaning towards making a pressing tool setup so the result matches the OEM design.


BTW, was talking to Bertocchi last night. He told me that when they were replacing 308 CIS lines they would put the end, the barb fitting, & something tapered like a center punch into boiling water for several minuites. Then use the tapered tool to enlarge the tubing's end, pull it out & slip the barb in before it cooled & shrunk back to size. He came up with Kinsler Fuel Injection as the tubing supplier. Couldn't find anything on their web site, will give them a call to see what they sell for CIS line.

Why do you believe the strength is unpredictable. What is the logic behind that concern? So far it's been an 'intuitive' argument against reaming.

Nylon is a machineable plastic. A reaming tool would remove a precisely controlled amount of material leaving a well defined cross-section. In this case, we're talking about removing 0.5 mm from the wall thickness in the area the barb is pressed into. The reamed area would taper down to the full wall thickness past the barb's end. No sharp discontinuities in the wall thickness profile. That's going to leave a 1.5mm wall thickness. from the general specs. I'm thinking the reamer would be a 3mm milling cutter. The cutter would be mounted a 6mm ID sleeve around it to guarantee that the reamed area is concentric with the tubing. Also the depth of cut would be precisely controlled.

In any case, I'm getting 3-4 meters of 6 x 2 to experiment with.

 

Wrote D&S Sales about 6x2 line. Here's how it went:

Here's the D&S web page that's 'in error':
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Hey Verell,
Last night I replaced the line from the fuel distributor to the warm up regulator (it was rubbing on the top of the cam belt cover and had a flat spot!) and it looks like 5/2! Check Michael's spares and see if you agree. It seems that all the OEM tubing is 2mm ID and either 5 or 6 mm OD. However, the 5/3 Cohline fit exactly the same (tight as hell) as it did on the injectors. It's all back together now, so I'll fire it up tomorrow and test. I don't think I will have time today.

Birdman

 

All,

I apologize as I am a bit tardy. I know I said I'd post a response from Cohline, GmbH Monday or Tuesday but my job is not your average 0900-1700 job. Sorry, but service to the Stars and Stripes comes first.

Anyway, I called Cohline, Germany, today and between my broken German and their broken English we did not get very far. So I drafted a letter (email) to them explaining our situation and our desire to purchase some of their fuel injection line. My wife is German, her English is outstanding, and she will be very happy to translate 2-marrow.

I'll send to Cohline.de as soon as she is finished and see what their response is. I'll post it and we can then reassess our situation and begin making final plans and prep to get something going.

V/r,

mwr4440

 

I'm having no luck so far. The sources I've tryed in Germany and UK either don't have it or are not interested in selling less that a few hundred meters !
I'd like 5 meters of 6/3.15 and 5 meters of 5/2, please ....

 

This sand paper tech.worked well for me to repairer a line that broke at a fitting while I was working on another part of my engine.
Good idea! thanks Fritz, 400I

 

Fritz,

I think you posted the wrong link. I want to see this technique too but did not find it or a link to it on the page in your post. Did I miss it; am I that blind?

V/r,

mwr4440

 

Fuel lines have lasted 30+ years can hardly be considered defective! They should have been replaced as part of routine maintenance years ago anyway...

 

ALCON (All-Concerned),

I drafted the letter to Cohline GmbH, here in Germany, listed the part numbers and dimentions (ID & OD) of the FI Line we think we need (Thanx all for your research), Household-6 translated it into German and we sent it off.

I tried to play to their hearts a bit as Germans love "Old-Timers" and our 308's are there and 328's not far behind. Germany has some of the finest automotive/flight/mechanical museums in the world and they are always packed. To see a museum-piece on the road--I get hundreds of stares, smiles and fingers gesturing "Look!!!" I implied there were hundreds or thousands of potential customers out there around the world in our "club" (Ferrarichat.com) in need of their service and product. I also asked if they did not have the OEM parts if could they recommend/supply a suitable replacement. Hope it worked.

Now we sit back and see what their response is. Should know in a few days. The Frau will translate back into English and I'll post when they reply.

Hope this gets something going.

mwr4440

 

He copied the wrong link out of my earlier post. Go back to my post & check out the links. Believe the sandpaper tip is in the thread on installing fittings into the lines.

However, See the pix of the simple wooden block fixture I posted awhile back. Much easier. You don't even need screws to hold the blocks togetherm just clamp them in your vise & you're ready to push your fittings into the line.

BTW, just received some 6 x 3 line from McMaster. I'm going to try inserting some fittings into it. However, this particular line is too flexable & doesn't have an adequate temperature range to actually be used for CIS injector line. But it'll do for testing/practice.

I'm going to order some Cohline 6x3. It looks like your price will be roughly $5/meter which is about what US distributors are charging for the other Cohline sizes.

If you want to order some, please post the # of meters you'll want so I can order enough to cover everyone's needs.

Does anyone actually need some 6x3 badly enough to pay an additional $30 - $40 to have a roll of Cohline air freighted to the US? (If N people need it ASAP, the air freight cost would be $30 to $40/N. If so, I should be able to get some here by mid-December, possibly earlier. If not, It'll come over in early January when Cohline's next container comes across.

 

Hey guys, didn't read thru the whole posts, but the cohline hose is available and dirt cheap. I gt it from Global metrics out in Burlingame (outside of san francisco) I got enough hose last time to redo 2 cars for $30. when I get back into town I'll get the reciept with sizes on it for you all.

 

This is great work guys! Two of my lines appear to have been heat damaged in one way or another. THey have rough "bubbles" on the underside of them. No leaks, but they scare the hell out of me! I am in desparate need of this fuel line and will be willing to buy enough to do all lines on my 83 308.

One concern is with respect to the ID. A few posts back Verell posted a page from the D&S website that specifically states that we should not use the 3mm ID line if the application calls for 2mm since it can dampen the chatter at the injector.

THere is a lot of information on this thread, so maybe I misunderstood, but is the correct application 2mm ID or 3mm ID?

Do we need to use a special reamer or simply warm the ends of the line in hot water?

Thanks, these lines are on my minde each and every time I drive the car.

GT

 

The original tubing for the injectors measures 6mm OD x 2mm ID. But we haven't been able to source it anywhere, including D&S Sales who can't get it anymore. The tubing for the other locations (eg: WUR) is 5mm OD x 3mm ID.

So far I haven't been able to find suitable 6x2 in the Cohline catalog, or sourced anywhere else. I've got a call into Cohline to see if they make it, should know in the next day or so.

6x2 is going to be an extremely tight fit on the 308 metal line's barbs, so using it will require either some kind of tooling to align things, & press the barb in, or else reaming the last 5/8" or so of the tubing out to 3mm ID.

The 911 guys reported missfiring only when they were using 5mm x 3mm. The hope is that 6mm x 3mm's 50% thicker walls will be sufficiently rigid to avoid problems. Otherwise we may all eventually have to go either EIS or Carbs...


Cohline makes 6x3, & it's going to be hard but I believe doable to insert the barbs into it with simple hand made tooling.

The Cohline 6x3 has never been imported into the US. However, I expect thats what we're going to end up using.

I've found some 6x3 Nylon tubing at McMaster., I've got a couple of meters that I'm going to experiment inserting the barb into, just to find out how hard 6x3 will be to work with. However, the McMaster 6x3 tubing's temperature & strength specs appear inadequate for this application.

 

I discovered a couple of my lines resting on the cam covers & was a little uneasy @ it to say the least, so I cinched them w/black ty-wraps at key locations orienting the 'head & pawl' part of the cable tie down towards the cam covers, and if need be, leave a little extra strap sticking out to stand the lines off the covers or other associated hot surfaces. Yeah, yeah, it's not concours but it works great and definately beats the problematic alternative.

 

Another Fchat member sent me 2 pix he'd taken of the lable on the cover of a 'CIS Fuel Hose Repair Kit'. I was real excited, figured I'd see if I could find out who made/sold the kit. Especially since I recognised the lable as something I'd seen a couple of days ago.

I searched the web half a dozen different ways, & the only site listing a "CIS Fuel Hose Assemby Kit" was D&S Sales who no longer have the 6x2 lines! Compare the first 2 pictures to the 3rd one labled 5-5000 which is the target of this link:

http://www.dssales.net/CIS.html

I guess another call to D&S is in order, but I'm not very hopeful...

At least we now know that a kit with 6x2 line & a reamer was sold & is still in use in at least 1 shop! Wish that lable had the 'reorder contact' box filled in, but probably would be D&S Sales...
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I love how they say in the instructions not to use heat. Impossible. Everyone, including Brian Crall, uses heat! (Boiling water seems to be the favorite).

Birdman

 

All,

Well, I got an email back from Cohline.de.

The BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) is that they reiterated that they only sell to distributors, CIS parts supply companies, etc., and will not sell to individuals. That we knew from earlier conversations recounted in this thread.

My wife is translating the entire message (is sick and it will take a day or 2) and if there are any additional nuggets of worth while info and she thinks there may be, I will post them here when she is done.

So, right now it looks like it is Cohline.usa or .................

Sorry,

mwr4440

 

I spoke with Cohline USA's tech support today, closest they make is the 6mm x 3.14 mm I'd talked to them about earlier. I'll be ordering some for January delivery. Will post $/meter as soon as I find out what it's going to cost.

Meanwhile I'm going to experiment with assembly methods using the 6x3 I got from McMaster.

 

All-

Below is the reply (German & English Translation) I got from the factory.

Assuming I got the parts numbers correct from earlier posts in this thread, it appears that they do in fact still make the OEM (ID and OD wise) lines we need, but may not sell those lines in the US. After living outside of the US for the past 18 years, I have noticed that on occasion European and Japanese companies make products that they just do not market in the US. Why? No idea.

I put the German response from Cohline in so that anyone with a good command of German and English can double-check my wife's translation. She does make an occasional mistake (like marrying me ) but they are very rare. I am a bit troubled with the word "nicht verformt !!" that my wife translated to "not deformated !!" Not sure what this word means here ......

Anyway, someone (Verell, Birdman, anyone) please check this out, make sure I asked the right question to begin with (got the part numbers vs requirements correct) and tell me if you want me to pursue getting some of this stuff from a German retailer and send it to you for further experimentation.

V/r,

mwr4440




---Ursprüngliche Nachricht---
From: "Volker Arhelger" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: AW: Benzinschlaeuche

COHLINE GmbH
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Dillenburg --- Handelsregister Wetzlar HRB 3137
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Hello Mr. Rabenstein,

thank you for the interest for our products.
First I am sorry to inform you, that we are only producing and supplying big series for the automobile industrie.
You can buy our products at car part dealers like Stahlgruber, Trost, Wessels + Müller and others.
Short info:
3011.0305-20: this is a 20 meter role of polyamid pipe / not deformated !!
3011.3106(-20): this is 5 meter long bar of polyamid pipe / not deformated !!
I hope you understand the fact, that we can not supply the ptoduct directly to you.

Volker Arhegler
Sales Managment
Cohline GmbH Dillenburg
Automotive Fluid Handling Technologies



Sehr geehrte Herr Rabenstein,
vielen Dank für das Interesse an unseren Produkten.
Zunächst muss ich Ihnen leider mitteilen, dass wir als Entwicklungslieferant der Automobilindustrie nur auf die Herstellung und Vertrieb von größeren Serien und Bedarfsmengen ausgelegt sind.
Unsere Produkte können Sie bei namhaften Autoteilehändler wie z.B.
Stahlgruber, Trost, Wessels + Müller usw. beziehen.
Zur kurzen Info:
3011.0305-20: Hierbei handelt es sich um eine Rolle a 20 Meter Polyamidrohr / nicht verformt !!
3011.3106(-20): Hierbei handelt es sich um Polyamidrohr in Stangen a ca. 5 Meter / nicht verformt !!
Bitte haben Sie Verständis, dass wir keine Direktbelieferung an Sie durchführen können.
mfg

i.V.
Volker Arhelger
Verkaufsleitung

Cohline GmbH, Dillenburg
Automotive Fluid Handling Technologies

 

Thanks mwr4440,
The 5x3 Cohline (3011.0305-20 -> for the WUR connections) is readily available here in the US.

The 6x3 Cohline (3011.3106-20 -> for the injectors) hasn't been imported into the US, but Cohline USA tells me that they can obtain it, & I've located a distributor that will special order it for me. I should have some in January.

Regards,
Verell

 

Verell,
That is great news! Awesome work by all of you guys!

Count me in to help pay for the order. Let me know how much you might need, I'm sure you (we) won't lose money. I need enough to do all injector lines on my 83 QV. Only 2 lines appear to be heat damaged, but why chance it.

Now, have you guys figured out the best way to remove and install?

Thanks!

GT

 

Removal:
The procedure on the D & S site seems to work pretty well, don't know of a reason to do something different: http://www.dssales.net/CIS.html

Insertion:
I'll be experimenting with insertion, have a set of 308 CIS fittings & some 6x3 tubing. I'll have a bottom line on insertion by the time we get the 6x3 Cohline, probably by New Years.

 

Good work Verell!