9000-10,000 year old artifact found in S Carolina made with material from NCarolina

Discussion in 'North & South Carolina' started by ProRallyCodriver, Apr 10, 2017.

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  1. ProRallyCodriver

    ProRallyCodriver Formula 3

    Oct 25, 2005
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    Dave Shindle
    Was near Cheraw where many of the sideroads are just plowed sand. Hop outta truck and looking down to ensure no snakes and see an outline that does not look natural. Pick it up and it was a spearhead. The plow had unearthed it and rain washed it off for me to see.

    Get home and forward photos to S Carolina State archeologists and find out its from the early archiac period from 9000-10,000 years old. They also knew that the material used to make it is Differentially Crystallized Tuff which originated in Asheboro NC so it came along way from where I found it. 80 miles before roads or trails when there were dangerous beast on the prowl.

    To put the date in perspective, if you found a relic from the American civil war. it'd be 150 years old and a great find. If you found a relic from American revolution, 260 years old. Native Americans when Columbus arrived, 540 years old. The Mayans - 2000 years ago, Ancient Romans - 2800 years ago, Ming Dynasty 4000 years. Egyptian Pyramids, anything you find is 5200 years old. Have had 3 archaeologists all concur the date and confirm the location the material that was used to create the spearhead I found and it is 9000-10,000 years old during the early-Archaic period, almost double the age of Egyptian artifacts in the time after dinosaurs when just small bands of people were about prior to civilizations which makes it even more rare.

    Archeologist- "Son, the day you found it, you should have gone and bought a lottery ticket. That's how lucky you were."
     
  2. Renman57

    Renman57 Formula Junior
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    Great story! Thanks for sharing! How about some pictures?!?!?
     
  3. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Remarkable.

    Yes, post up some photos!
     
  4. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It wasn't that long ago, "experts" claimed man could not have arrived in the Americas before 10,000 years ago. Imagine that.
     
  5. alexion

    alexion Karting
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    Cool story. I would love to see some photos as well!
     
  6. ProRallyCodriver

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    #6 ProRallyCodriver, Apr 11, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    According to Wikipedia: "In the classification of the archaeological cultures of North America, the Archaic period or "Meso-Indian period" in North America, accepted to be from around 8000 to 2000 BC". So that is at limit of your 10,000. Wikipedia says the period prior to Archaic is called Lithic stage and gives no detail about when humans arrived. Purely speculation I think. During the ice age when ice made a bridge between Russia and Alaska?

    Here is the pic. It is 2 1/4 inches long. The edges are still sharp having being protected by the soft sand.

    I was too busy to look any further and at time did not recognize the scope of what it was. Thought it was a couple hundred year old Indian arrowhead. Google Earth satellite view of the location I found it has several very interesting features off in nearby woods and creek and a mound worth investigating further. Need to find a long weekend. Who knows, maybe there is entire village there or a saber-tooth skeleton, or the hunter's skeleton.
    16996081_1332519156809267_372575979252622964_n.jpg
     
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  8. ncm6cabrio

    ncm6cabrio Formula Junior
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    Very Cool!! Thanks for sharing!
     
  9. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    The basis of the "10,000 year theory" is this is when the land bridge between Russia and the US came into being. Problem is they have found 10,000-year old villages around the Tallahassee Florida area (and now SC). Those folks would have had to haul ass to get there that fast. So... it looks like folks got here so other way than the land bridge.
     
  10. ProRallyCodriver

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    Current news from my FB feed implies a 4000 year difference to travel east which I think would be plausible.

    Discovery Of 14,000-Year-Old Settlement In Canada Could Rewrite North American History | IFLScience

    The ancient stories of the indigenous Heiltsuk Nation people say that their ancestors sheltered on a mysterious strip of coastline in Canada during the last Ice Age. Thanks to a recent discovery of a 14,000-year-old settlement, science is now reaffirming those claims.

    The discovery was made last year along the Central Coast of British Columbia on Triquet Island, CBC News reports. Teams of archaeologists from the Hakai Institute, University of Victoria, and local First Nations found the remains of charcoal, tools, fish hooks, spears used to hunt marine mammals, and even a hand drill used for lighting fires.

    Based on the analysis of charcoal found, itÂ’s estimated the settlement was established around 13,613 to 14,086 years ago. This makes it one of the oldest human settlements in North America. It also means it's twice as old as the invention of the wheel, three times older than the Pyramids of Giza, and thousands of years before all of the ice age megafauna went extinct.

    There is also evidence to suggest that the sea-level around Triquet Island has remained remarkably stable for 15,000 years throughout the end of the last Ice Age. This again confirms that this area acted as a haven of stability over the millennia, just as the Heiltsuk Nation have said all along.
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    Archaeologists excavate deep into the ground of the island. Grant Callegari/Hakai Institute

    The finding also helps explain how early North Americans migrated through British Columbia. One theory says that humans came from Asia and traversed across a bridge of land that connects Russia to Alaska. The discovery on Triquet Island further supports that people first moved down the coast, most likely via boat, after coming across the land bridge. Previously, archaeologists suggested that humans had traveled on foot to this point. While people certainly would have traveled inland too, later on, this discovery shows that the coastal route likely occurred much earlier than the inland route.

    Now, armed with this knowledge, indigenous First Nation groups say they feel that they now have more credence and validity when entering the often heated battles for land rights.

    "When we do go into negotiations, our oral history is what we go to the table with," William Housty, a member of the Heiltsuk Nation, told CBC News. "So now we don't just have oral history, we have this archaeological information. It's not just an arbitrary thing that anyone's making up... We have a history supported from Western science and archaeology."
     
  11. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Human beings are the most manipulative and cunning creatures on earth. Scientists used to think they couldn't survive the glaciers blocking the Americans from the north. Well, they got here somehow, didn't they?

    BTW, your Canada example is interesting because the glaciers didn't start melting until about 15k to 20k years ago. Before then, Canada was nothing but a sheet of ice.
     
  12. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    True. But ancient man was a hunter / gatherer. Most likely they were just following food sources from one place to another trying not to starve.
     
  13. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    True. But, human beings were just as smart as we are today, and just as lazy. Life revolved around 500 calories a day (people were smaller and skinnier). In the Garden of Eden (which based on satellite photos we think is underwater in the Persian Gulf), life was good. Trap some animals, pick some fruit, sit around and drink cave juice, the only thing missing was FaceBook.

    But, around 15,000+ years ago, the North America was covered in a sheet of ice, sometimes over a mile deep. The Gulf of Mexico, south of Tallahassee, extended at least 100 miles further south than it does today. Thinking logically, which is always dangerous, if we have evidence of human existence near Tallahassee (which many believe was as far as the glaciers got) dating back 10,000+ years, it would appear reasonable to assume people were living in what is now deep in the Gulf of Mexico say 15,000 to 20,000 years ago. (Early humans liked waterfront property.) So how did they get there? If you discount flying saucers, they must have somehow walked or gotten there by boat.

    Sorry, I can go hours on this stuff. I'm fascinated by prehistory.
     
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  15. ProRallyCodriver

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    Enjoying the discussion. Finding the relic really perked my interest and my son has told everyone in his elementary school about it. Has him thinking about more than video games and now wants to go explore.

    Traveling cross N America during that period would have difficult (no bridges cross glacier ice-met runoff rivers would have been freezing cold and lighting a fire to warm yourself is another difficult task).

    I backpacked the entire Appalachain Trail. 2100 miles in 139 days with modern light-weight equipment in summer. The calories burned were astronomic and I was having food mailed to me and picking up in trail towns. Traveling long distances while also foraging for food and cold temps would have been a *****. So why would they travel and risk lives crossing rivers and the Rockies, frozen mountain ranges, barren plains or desert,...?

    So why did they do it? Was it like the elephant graveyard and it was programmed in their brains that they had to grow old in Florida?
     
  16. Juan-Manuel Fantango

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    I'm outraged! Look at what global warming has done to the earth!!

     
  17. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Hahaha! If you want I can discuss this more. Our knowledge of pre-history in the Americas is sketchy because the Spanish wiped out entire populations with smallpox. But we know late civilizations were highly organized.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippian_culture

    The estimates of Cahokia range from 6,000 to 40,000 people. This may not sound impressive, but think about say 10,000 people peeing and pooping every day, not to mention the usual bs that goes on with neighbors. The bet is they were highly organized.

    And when you start talking about this long of a time, you have to really stretch your mind. Imagine ancient bison, mastodon, ice age camel, and giant ground sloth around Tallahassee Florida. True confession time, I was an Anthropology major before I switched to accounting. I went with Anthro because they had the best looking hippie chicks (anybody remember hippie chicks?). But I never lost interest. It really is fascinating stuff.
     
  18. Streetsurfer

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    #16 Streetsurfer, Apr 13, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I'd say it's more likely an atlatl dart tip. Spears were more a rigid shaft-whereas a dart flexes. The river cane from your area made and still makes great dart shafts. The points were attached to a removable shorter length of shaft, which in turn attached to the flexible dart shaft. The oscillations of the dart increased it's momentum and was more deadly, and able to be launched farther than a spear. This replaceable tip section saved having to remake an entire dart (which required quite a bit of extra work to straighten and gauge it) if the tip broke off in the prey. Atlatls are known to be in use well before the estimated age of your found tip.

    Either way, it is awesome how the earth will churn stuff up after such a long time.
    A while back Mastadon teeth, ribs, and tusk fragments were discovered not far from Chicago at Pratt Wayne Woods.
    IMG_1364.JPG
     
  19. ProRallyCodriver

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    Thank you StreetSurfer. Yes, I was aware it is possibly an atlatl dart tip though when I said spearhead to the 3 local archeologists, none of them corrected me.

    I am really itching to get back down there and investigate further. There is a mound nearby that does not look natural, and a barren burnt looking spot in forest plus some rock outcroppings and the stream. Its very sandy so searching the surface would be easy but can't use metal detector for stones or bones since not metal.

    Regarding the ocean level, the ocean was higher in this region 20 million years ago in this area according to this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandhills_(Carolina)

    But 20 million is way more than 10-15,000 years ago.
     
  20. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Wow, you know your stuff!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. Streetsurfer

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    Well, thanks, but.....
    Nah, I don't know enough to be worth much, and am worse at explaining things properly with written word. Like my comment about the oscillations of the dart. I could have better explained that the bending of the shaft is the storing of and the release of the stored energy imparted by the launcher or atlatl.

    I started launching darts a little over a year ago, but just as I was getting the hang of it and tightening my groups, I injured a shoulder in another hobby. I had started reading on atlatls a few years ago, here and there, and gleaned what little I could. Other info was gleaned from watching First Nations channel and other shows where a group took down an elk in a survival type show. Having a little Potawatomi in me probably drives my interest in such things. Like for instance the petrogliphs in Texas, discovered to be paintings diagraming the constellations. I hope to get down to see thim this summer, during a trip to drive the Three Sisters.

    I would love to have been with ProRallyCoDriver when he found this point. It's an incredible find in my opinion. Touching it, making that connection to an ancestral heritage possibly, or just realizing the length of time it has been hidden then turned up by the powers that exist to make this big ball that supports us function in it's entirity.....it all amazes me.
     
  22. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Two Time F1 World Champ
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    You express yourself very well. One life lesson is to never put yourself down, they are plenty of other people who can do that for you. :)

    Your experiences in duplicating this stuff are exactly on point. The only way we know what we know today comes from researchers trying to recreate and use archaeological finds, which was not easy to do. Turns out ancient humans were just as smart (and emotional) as we are today. The main difference is fools died young back then. Doing stupid things was not healthy. Those who lived had enough common sense to come out of the rain.
     
  23. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    This is an incredible find. When I was in college in NC in '76, I went relic hunting in the back woods near a Civil War battlefield and found a mini ball, which I still have and thought it was cool to have something from 110 years earlier and fired in battle. To find something from 9000 years ago used to hunt in a time which has so little historical artifacts is remarkable. Hope it goes somewhere where others can appreciate it.
     
  24. SuperJ

    SuperJ F1 Rookie
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    I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread! Thank you for posting. What an incredible find! What do you think you'll do with your relic?
     
  25. Texas Forever

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    It is interesting, isn't it? The thing that impresses me is the more I find out about ancient humans, the more I realize they were just like us. The only difference is technology.
     

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