Clutch Wear: F1 vs Manual?

Discussion in '360/430' started by nikita.ry, Jun 30, 2011.

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  1. nikita.ry

    nikita.ry Rookie

    Jun 28, 2011
    5
    I hear that the predicted life for an f430/360 F1 clutch is about 20k miles.

    Seems like a very low number, is this due to the fast shifting nature of the F1 gear box? Because there are many more, more powerful cars out there with clutches lasting much much longer than that.

    What would the expected life of a clutch on a manual f430/360 be? Considerably more, (under non-track conditions)

    Lastly, what do you think the new 458 Italia double clutch wear be?
     
  2. djantlive

    djantlive Formula 3

    Jun 30, 2005
    1,007
    F360/430 clutch should last 20-30k mi if carefully driven. If lots of hills and city driving, it can be much lower.

    458 is supposed to ve lifetime like other dual clutch.
     
  3. HH11

    HH11 F1 Rookie

    Sep 4, 2010
    2,824
    #3 HH11, Jul 1, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
    Considering how much power goes through these cars, 20k miles is a lot in my opinion. If driven properly they can last that long or more. I have seen cars with clutch readings that would scare a potential buyer because the car was driven poorly or tracked often. 20k miles is also a lot on these types of cars. I'm all about driving my car but if not a DD it takes a long time to rack up 20k. I have 8k on my 07 and feel like I drive it often.
     
  4. TimsBlack16M

    TimsBlack16M Formula 3

    Jan 27, 2005
    1,357
    Agoura Hills, CA
    Full Name:
    Tim
    I just had the clutch life checked on the Scuderia 16M. The 4% wear (4400 miles) suggests a clutch life well beyond 20,000 miles.

    Tim
     
  5. SfefVan

    SfefVan Guest

    Nov 28, 2008
    1,370
    Switzerland
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    Stef
    Basically, I would say that there is no difference between the F1 and manual clutch wear as the clutch itself is identical (only the trust bearing differs).

    But I believe that it's the user who makes the real difference between both as it is maybe more tempting to gear more often with the F1 than the manual. Properly driven both clutches can last a very long time. My manual has already many miles on the clutch and is still biting very strongly. A friend of mine is tracking a lot his 16M, has also a lot miles on it, but has still a very low % of estimated wear.
     
  6. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 11, 2008
    52,521
    Vegas baby
    Absolutely correct.

    Driving style, where it is driven and used, and how the clutch is engaged is the main reason for clutch wear differences.

    High speed shifts have the least amount of wear. Slow shifts (like in Auto mode from a dead stop to 1st) are the worst. Driving up inclines or reversing also cause excessive wear in both.

    If anything, the F1 can actually help with clutch wear as every shift is "perfect" with the matching of the engine to the gearbox. No human can be that perfect every time.

    One last thing. Unless a Ferrari is used on long trips, 20K miles is something like 8 years of use. And, if it's used on long trips, the clutch does not wear either. Looking at it that way, replacing the clutch once every 8 years seems like a bargain.
     
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  8. Camdon53

    Camdon53 Formula Junior

    Jul 18, 2006
    507
    Texas, USA
    Full Name:
    Jim
    The search button is your friend on this topic. It has been discussed at great length in great detail on many occasions over many years. Just one of many relevant recent threads would be http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316605. Basic conclusion is that potential clutch life for both manual and F1 transmissions in 360s and F430s is the same and depends mostly on owner technique. Either can be abused into premature failure and both can be driven to the same very high miles (way more than 20K).
     
  9. Michaelzeiss

    Michaelzeiss Karting

    May 5, 2013
    108
    Toronto
    Full Name:
    Michael Zzzz
    Can someone confirm this. My mechanic told me that if I baby my Ferrari, it will break down faster than the one that is driven hard. Can anybody confirm this? Obviously, driving hard would result in clutch wear faster but if you baby your ferrari, your gasket, rubbers, belts, and other engine parts may fail faster. Any thoughts? Is my mechanic trying to gouge me for future repetitive repairs?
     
  10. 993man

    993man Formula Junior

    Sep 20, 2009
    827
    New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Funny you should mention this Michael.
    I just had my car at a Ferrari clinic on Tuesday where they cleared some codes.
    The tech told me to drive the damn thing, and drive it harder than what I am now.
    So when I get a ticket I will just tell the officer what I was told. That's going to work.
    But when I bought the car the clutch wear was at 11%.
    8000k's later it's at 25%, so it's not really wearing much I reckon. My car has done 30000k's now, so by my thinking, and my driving style I have got heaps left.

    The F1 is brilliant. I love it and will never again buy a manual car.
     
  11. mike01606

    mike01606 Formula Junior

    Feb 21, 2012
    483
    Cheshire UK
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    Mike M

    This ^.......2 really good posts. A bit of mechanical sympathy particularly when starting from a standstill and wear is relatively low. Mine wore 3% between annual services (3k miles).
     
  12. M360Dom

    M360Dom Karting

    Jul 21, 2009
    139
    New York
    5k on the clutch in my 06 mans Trans f430 and it feels perfect. I was told 20k as well but hope it lasts longer.
     
  13. mikeyr

    mikeyr Formula 3
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    Jun 17, 2004
    2,151
    Santa Barbara, CA.
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    Mike Rambour
    on my 360, first clutch was changed 27k miles, second clutch is nearing end of life but it has 32k miles on it right now, I am changing the clutch this summer and it will be around 35k miles. (I was at 25% wear left last summer when I did the belts/major and in the last few weeks it has started "dragging" at stop lights, so its time)
     
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  15. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,185
    Colorado
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    Dave
    I have 24K on my manual 430. No sign of slippage. Wear cannot be read on manuals.

    Dave
     
  16. Gofast430

    Gofast430 Karting
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    Jun 2, 2013
    183
    Overland Park, KS
    Full Name:
    Don Dearmore
    Just had my annual service done. Clutch wear is at 22.7%. 2007 F430 F1 Spider.
    21,356 miles and ALWAYS driven in race mode.
    This car has been to the Crescent Classic in Arkansas the last 3 years and gets the piss driven out of it for 4 days. The Crescent Classic is rated as one of the top Ferrari rallies held each year in the US.
    I just don't understand why the standard answer when someone asks about clutch life, the
    standard response is "about 20,000 miles".
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    27,406
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    Terry H Phillips
    Standard response should be "Depends on driving style and type of roads on which she is used." One driven mostly on the highway will show much less wear than one driven mostly in downtown San Francisco or other hilly urban/suburban area. Driver style is much harder to quantify.
     
  18. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    23,740
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    I have a client with a 360F1 daily driver and lives in the hills. His 1st clutch went over 50,000. His second got replaced at 70,000 only because a transmission seal failed and soaked the clutch with gear oil. That said a human operated clutch can last longer.

    I have never replaced a worn out clutch in one of my own car and a few have gone over 200,000 miles. My 328 just got a major engine overhaul and I put the old clutch back in.

    Clutches wear out because people wear them out. I have sent cars to the junk yard with the original clutch.

    BTW I have never not lived in the hills. Maybe that is the reason. In the hills we learn how to use a clutch.
     
  19. Ron328

    Ron328 Formula 3
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    Mar 10, 2003
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    #17 Ron328, Apr 20, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
    Very informative thread, especially to F1-naive drivers like me. Admittedly I have been misinformed about the F1 clutch which I thought wears faster because of what I read and hear. Then I read this.
    Based on above, I get the impression that F1 clutch wear is less at high speeds and more at slower speeds (shifting to 1st from standstill, driving uphill, and reversing). Is that right?
    Thanks.
     
  20. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
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    Terry H Phillips
    Ron- Affirmative. Most wear is on starts from a dead stop. Worst wear is a 360 starting in reverse up a hill because reverse is almost as high a gear as 2nd. F430s have a lower speed reverse and are not as bad, plus they have a tougher clutch. Highway miles put virtually no wear on a clutch.

    Brian and I are old farts nearly born with our left foot on a clutch. My first drive was in an old Jeep on a ranch in 1963, but I really learned how to drive in a 61 Corvette in 1964. I have never worn out a clutch, either, and my F1 575M currently has 21,500 miles on the original clutch with lots of wear remaining.

    Wear varies with driver style, no getting around it. With practice, though that wear can be minimized.
     
  21. Ron328

    Ron328 Formula 3
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    Thank you, Terry. This really helps me a lot. I have been looking for a late model 360/early 430 but couldn't find a manual. I have avoided F1 because of misinformation. Then a thread like this changes everything.
     
  22. Ira Schwartz

    Ira Schwartz Formula 3
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    May 20, 2003
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    Ira Schwartz
    If maintenance bills are your concern, the clutch in an F1 car is the least of your worries- it's the F1 hydraulics that are pricey (a concern you avoid in a 3-pedal car).
     
  23. DonJuan348

    DonJuan348 F1 Rookie
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    Aug 5, 2008
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    #21 DonJuan348, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    20k miles in 8y SMH that's Sunday driving...

    With a manual what style of driving wear and or reduces wear ? Does manual rev match adds extra wear ?
     
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    27,406
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    Terry H Phillips
    Ira- Latest recommendation from Ferrari, for the 599, is to change F1 fluid and bleed the system every three years. If this is done, F1 hydraulic problems will be minimized.

    DJ- Say again.
     
  25. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

    Jan 31, 2002
    11,185
    Colorado
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    Dave
    Look at it this way: a clutch only wears when it is not locked up i.e. slipping. So, most wear occurs on moving away from a stop or on downshifts when the revs are NOT matched. If the goal is to reduce wear, then when moving off from a stop, you want to get the clutch fully engaged as quickly as possible with as little slippage as possible. If you rev match on downshifts, there should be virtually no wear. In fact, if you are really good at it, you can shift without disengaging the clutch at all. Push the stick into neutral, blip the motor and stick it in the lower gear. If you have matched correctly, it will go smoothly.

    Dave
     
  26. BrettC

    BrettC Formula Junior

    Aug 13, 2012
    788
    Calif
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    Brett
    my 3 pedal has 23800 on the clutch...feels strong and grabs like it should.
     
  27. RedTaxi

    RedTaxi Formula 3

    Mar 1, 2012
    1,121
    New Zealand
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    Glen
    It's all in the take off. You should be able to get the clutch fully engaged by the time the car has moved one car length. (you can feel it) At min revs. = virtually nil clutch wear. Then go like hell if you want. Avoid hill starts like the plague.
    I too have sent manual cars to the junkyard on their original clutch.
    This is my first F1 and you can control the clutch slip the same as in a stick shift.
     
  28. DonJuan348

    DonJuan348 F1 Rookie
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    Aug 5, 2008
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    Ahhh ...i thought rev match was extra wear . This is only car that shifting without using clutch is difficult. Every other one I've had I did that regularly.

    Mine has 30k thus far
     
  29. F430giallomodena

    F430giallomodena Formula Junior

    Mar 2, 2012
    870
    Lugano, Switzerland
    since my F1 senson broke few week ago I had my clutch tested...45% wear and 50'000 km driven...still on my original clutch...9 years old
    In my opinion the only thing you do not have to do is lots of driving in traffic at slow speed cause these cars are not built for that and will eat your clutch.
     

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