Gooding video of 275 GTB/C 09051.

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by miurasv, Aug 9, 2017.

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  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #1 miurasv, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2017
    See here: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_UjeCA1hK8[/ame]

    I didn't realise the power was as high as 333 BHP. I thought the 3 carb layout restricted it somewhat and the 6 carb 250 LM is rated at 320 BHP.

    Info and provenance here: http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1966-ferrari-275-gtbc/
     
  2. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    Dyno's don't lie, but dyno operators do.
     
  3. mcimino

    mcimino Formula 3
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    #3 mcimino, Aug 9, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Why does this car have exhaust pipes coming out from both, the side of the car and the rear?
    Screen Shot 2017-08-09 at 9.40.21 AM.jpg
     
  4. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    Just to clarify my earlier comments. I have no reason to specifically question the power output of this car. My comments were rather to state that engine dyno results can be easily varied by whoever is operating the dyno on any given day. The way the car runs and drives is always the final arbiter of the engine.
     
  5. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #5 miurasv, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    What do they mean by the engine was rebuilt utilizing the finest internal components? Does this mean they are non standard? A 275 GTB/C engine produced up to 282 BHP.
    09051gd.jpg
     
  6. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 Veteran
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    Guys, please do NOT over-interpret things and if you try to somewhat "read between the lines" you may make huge mistakes and wrong assumptions. Do not make things up, please. I am sure that it is meant the correct and standard components (for a competition 275 GTB/C).

    Marcel Massini
     
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  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #7 miurasv, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    For reference the Build Sheets of 275 GTB/C 09051.
    09051 1.jpg
    09051 2.jpg
    09051 3.jpg
    09051 4.jpg
     
  9. Ferri

    Ferri Formula Junior

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    #8 Ferri, Aug 14, 2017
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  10. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    " ... NOT over-interpret things"? Unbelievable 333hp is a stated fact of Gooding and no over-interpretation or any "read between the lines". And with the build sheet no "assumptions" are needed anyhow and the "correct and standard components" could be easily checked ...
     
  11. gte250

    gte250 Karting

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    #10 gte250, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hello,

    We have received in the last week multiple emails from people who are interested in the history of #09051. The car was in our workshop at Hietbrink Coachbuilding where we have worked on this car in the late 80’s / early 90’s. The car has a new made body (except the roof). The chassis and sub frames were repaired at a few locations.

    The new body was made of 1.5 mm aluminium as request of the client who wanted a new and thicker body.

    The original thin racing body was send in 2008 to the new owner of #09051 in the USA.
    This was including the original nose, rear, door panels, boot and the hood.

    The information of Gooding is currently incomplete. A few years of history of the car is missing.
    Roelofs Engineering in The Netherlands received the job from F. Leiser (Belgium) for the restoration of #09051.

    From Roelofs I received the job as spoken with the customer to build a new body for the car. Leiser requested the thicker 1.5 mm body, because he thought the original body was to weak.

    The upholstery was done by the company “Cools” in Eindhoven, The Netherlands in 1992.

    To make the story complete, we would like to receive the photos of re-installation of the original body at Motion Products / MPI.

    According to some people, Gooding has a restoration dossier, which would be available at Pebble Beach. If possible, we would also like to see this information / photos.

    If there are more question, you can contact us.

    Below are some photos of the car #09051 before starting the project, after the re-body and also some photos of the original body that is shipped to the USA in 2008.

    Alwin Hietbrink,
    Hietbrink Coachbuilding
    original body before shipping.jpg
    longn2.jpg
    longn4.jpg
    #09051 (1).jpg
    #09051 (2).jpg
     
  12. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    I'm sure you know this, but almost no Ferrari made the power alleged until the 90s, especially the old V12s.
     
  13. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Thank you! This is most valuable first-hand information. It really helps to complete Gooding’s documentation for the late 80’s/early 90’s and it also prevents to make any “huge mistakes and wrong assumptions”. I would like to see the restauration dossier as well and not just hear about it from experts or the auction firm. Because again: history and not auction campaigning should be the issue here.
     
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  15. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    I guess that actually still the (wonderful) Huitbrink replica body and no Scaglietti body is on 09051. 1.05 mm thickness makes *visually* different edges than 1.5 mm (+50%). This can be easily checked from anybody by simple measuring and without expert reports or auction catalogues to avoid “huge mistakes and wrong assumptions”.
     
  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    #14 miurasv, Aug 17, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
    Has anyone at Pebble Beach seen the Gooding & Company restoration dossier who can confirm if there is any evidence, photographic or otherwise, contained therein of the re-installation of 09051's original light gauge aluminium Scaglietti body that was removed by Alwin Hietbrink as shown above?
     
  17. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Sold, hammered for $13,200,000 plus BP.
     
  18. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    I have seen all the documentation and photos. The ORIGINAL body has been reinstalled on the car. When the car was under my care, it was easy to tell the body was not original. I also inspected the car at Pebble. It was very well done. Just remember that some people have agendas and you should take certain statements with a "grain of salt".
     
  19. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Very interesting and thanks! However, Gooding nor MPI were willing to provide such confirmation. Let’s eliminate any "grain of salt" of this important car’s history and may be somebody could kindly provide some pictures of the original body’s reinstallation and tell us, who did it and when it was done. Unfortunately, all this is missing in the detailed auction catalogue and the expert reports.
     
  20. TTR

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    ???
    Care to elaborate ?
    I assume you have fair amount of experience with these types of "visual" inspections and "simple measuring" ?
    Just curious.
     
  21. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula Junior
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    LGS: Heitrbrink rebodied the car in the late 1980s-early 1990s, but kept the original body which was not badly damaged. The man who sold the car at Gooding's was able to acquire the original body from Heitrbrink, and MPI reinstalled the original body on the chassis in 2013. I have seen a number of photos of the work, but they belong to the seller (and the new owner) and I am not at liberty to release them.
     
  22. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    This is my naïve understanding and last humble knowledge about physics: If you bend 1.0 mm instead of 1.5 mm (+50%) thickness, that produces a smaller radius and different, sharper edges.

    And finally: Measure, if the roof has 1 mm and the rest 1.5 mm thickness ….
     
  23. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Thanks. Fully understood and accepted!

    However, the real issue here is history and the problem campaigning of auctioneers and experts with incomplete information and undocumented claims. If you don’t present the market long stories about the first owner's wife’s favourite dog and its birth date but instead just the unbroken, documented and complete history of the car’s frame, body and engine, any “huge mistakes and wrong assumptions” or hidden agendas will be avoided.
     
  24. TTR

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    #22 TTR, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
    Theoretically fair assumption, but in reality when sheetmetal, especially in these these thicknesses, is formed/shaped, whether by breaking, hammering, rolling, stretching, etc it tends to loose its manufactured conformity. In some cases it can do that to +/- 50%.

    Also, assessing/measuring sheetmetal thickness of coachwork in a refinished automoblie can be hampered by thicknesses of materials, including fillers, primers, sealers, paints, etc. applied on top of metal finished panel.

    P.S. Above comments are only opinions based on my personal hands-on experiences, though admittedly I have none with alloy body 275 GTB/C.
     
  25. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Hidden agendas :)

    Research is a key factor. It is important to know as much as possible about a car, with every little detail. People invest huge amounts of money and they want to know what they buy. It is all about doing your homework or have it done by a real expert.
     
  26. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Relevant, unbroken and documented information is the issue here - and elsewhere. The re-conversion of a steel GTB from later added competition features and the switch of its “incorrect” chassis number got recently declared from an expert poster as “… now back to original and really superbly done … “. Of course, these are happy news, but detailed information about the re-conversion and miraculous switch of chassis numbers would be of far higher historic importance, than mentioning the used Salchi colour code. And yes, if you buy an important car, you have to independently check unseen of any expert reports, certificates and auction catalogues, because anyone commissioned from the seller does have his horse in the race and own agenda.
     
  27. GIOTTO

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    #25 GIOTTO, Aug 31, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  28. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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  29. GIOTTO

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    #09051 - Targa-Florio 1969 with n°114.
     
  30. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    #28 lgs, Aug 31, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
    Thanks again. Correlations of the pictured TF accident damages and the ‘Hietbrink original front’ are hard to tell (post 25, 8 and 10). Would be interesting to know if any battle traces of TF 69 (and if yes how) can be seen on the car’s actual front. But no side pipes and dual system at TF 69.
     
  31. Schlesser

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    Here a general question: How can we get better transparency of hard-raced cars' restoration history and originality?
    What could really help?
     
  32. Schlesser

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    Where is the car now and do we have any chance to see it displayed or racing? I passionately hope it will not disappear from the public after the auction...like some other cars.
     
  33. miurasv

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    #31 miurasv, Sep 4, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
    At the very least the auction houses, in this case Gooding & Company and their Associates should respond to enquiries about the car. Somebody very interested in 275 GTB/C 09051 asked me to get in touch with Gooding & Company to ask about the body as Mr Hietbrink had posted picture evidence that he had rebodied it and therefore for Gooding & Company to supply evidence of the re-installment of the original body which they claim the car has.

    Firstly I sent an email to their website email address to which there was no response so I sent an email to Associate David Brynan. Again no response so I sent an email to Associate Joe Twyman. Yet again no response. I wasn't previously aware that Gooding & Company employed monkeys but as this experience with them has made me think otherwise, I thought I'd better email the organ grinder himself, David Gooding, but you guessed it, no response.

    During this time as there was no response from Gooding & Company, I contacted Motion Products Inc to ask if the original body had been re-installed. They replied that the owner is very private and they are not allowed to release any info. Eventually after further email exchanges they said that the original body had been re-installed and that the work was executed by Motion Products Inc, but after I requested picture evidence they replied that they weren't authorised to release any information and to get in touch with Gooding & Company. I believe MPI were trying to be helpful and they quite rightly stated that they were not selling the car and reiterated that I should contact Gooding & Company.

    As Gooding & Company did not respond at all, even to acknowledge receipt of any of my emails and then the requested picture evidence of the re-installation of the original body was not supplied, the person I was acting on behalf of was no longer interested in the car.

    My experience has been that Gooding & Company did not act in the best interest of their client or their own company for that matter. The person I was acting on behalf of did not indicate to what level he was prepared to bid on this car but I can say that he has a significant collection which includes cars of a similar value. Had Gooding & Company responded with the requested information, 275 GTB/C 09051 may have had a different owner than the one it has today and more importantly for Gooding & Company's client, the consignor, he may have realised a higher price....
     
  34. DWR46

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    Steve: The major auction companies have to operate within the consignor's instructions in how they respond to questions about a specific car. Apparently the consignor had requested Gooding to not discuss certain items. To you or me, it might have made more sense to fully disclose the installation of the original body, but we were not selling the car. Contrary to your experience, I have found Gooding to be very quick to reply and accommodating to requests regarding cars for auction. In any case, 9051 is with a new home and more correct than it has been for many years.
     
  35. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2006
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    Pictures of the bare body and chassis and an ‘explosion picture’ presenting all used engine parts. All this *before* painting and assembly and: showing all welds and available numbers. The truth is in the metal and a few pictures would offer all relevant information and provide more transparency of the car’s status than most expert reports and catalogues. But overall: Repair and preserve if possible because any restauration (and re-restauration) destroy per se history and originality. And never manipulate the smile of Mona Lisa. Not the taste of the owner or restorer should be reflected but the purpose, nature and character of the original. 09051 had certainly not left the factory in such ‘perfection’ and with that output (and a dual exhaust system).
     
  36. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    Thank you for your reply, Dyke.

    It was all a bit suspicious that Gooding & Company did not disclose the ownership of Francois Leiser and the thicker gauge aluminium rebody he commissioned Alwin Hietbrink to do. Mr Hietbrink posted the details and pictures of the rebody in this thread so it could not be denied. If the original Scaglietti body had actually been reinstalled why not reply and disclose the details and pictures of the re-installation? Why the secrecy? If the omission wasn't on purpose, and a mistake, or even if it was on purpose, they were given the chance to allay concerns by replying with the requested information but instead they discourteously chose not to reply which compounded the suspicion. My interested party naturally had to conclude by their failure to even acknowledge and reply to reasonable requests for information on a multi million dollar car, and in the absence of any evidence, that the original body had not been re-installed, regardless of whether that really was the case or not.
     
  37. tomgt

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    The only thing worse than a liar is a liar that's also a hypocrite Mr. Robertson.
    What would their motivation be?
    I found numbers and letters somewhere in a document or report: F.Y. 298-281-674
     
  38. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran
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    I'm sorry, Tom but I don't understand your post.
     
  39. TTR

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    Now, that's some funny commentary right above.
     
  40. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    Can you really add something to this discussion or are you just annoying an other poster?
     

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