Let´s talk about Boxing

Discussion in 'Sports' started by Zzono, Dec 13, 2008.

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  1. Zzono

    Zzono Karting

    Apr 21, 2008
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    I saw Wladimir Klitschiko´s fight tonight.
    Boxing has been very boring for several years.
    My question:

    Is Wladimir too good for other boxers or are current boxers so bad?


    P.S. Anyway, I miss 18 years old Mike Tyson. I could imagine he could just kill Wladimir or whatever.
     
  2. dysko

    dysko Formula Junior

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    If you are a boxing fan, I have an up coming boxer to watch for in about 2-5 years in the lightweight division. His name is Noah Zuhdi... still early in his career (18 months as a pro) but has won every fight he has had in a first round KO. He has insanely fast hands, even for a little guy and is a heavy hitter as well. As his career progresses, I am hoping that we will get see how good his endurance is...
     
  3. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    I really didn't think He was THAT good today. VERY 2 Dimentional. Rahman Lokked REAL bad. There just isn't anybody in the Heavyweight division Anymore.
     
  4. ADON

    ADON Formula 3

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    I quit watching when Mike Tyson and Prince Naseem Hamed started getting their butt's kicked.
     
  5. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ
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    I remember watching all of Tyson's fights in college (me, not him)--there was nothing like him in his prime. And he seemed to fight every few months, too. I am by no means a boxing historian, and I never watched any early greats, but I can't imagine any of them being more savage than Tyson. Not that some of them couldn't have out-fought him. But he was unbelievable to watch those first few years.
     
  6. Zzono

    Zzono Karting

    Apr 21, 2008
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    Well, I was a boxing fan.
    When I was young, I compared Lennox Lewis with Mike Tyson.
    Boxing has been an unpopular sport since UFC or K-1 was founded (at least in Southkorea)
    When Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson had to fight, I saw all of the Korean newspapers that covered their coming up fights as biggest issues and titles.
    But nowadays, nobody is informed who fought against who. Neighter newspapers nor internet websites like daum.net never publish their fights.

    I think, other countries also do not care about boxing anymore.
    I have been in Germany since 2001 and Germany is only interested in boxing when Klitischikos fight because they are half Germans.
    boxing is losing and losing its popularity. Sad.
    My father who was a boxing fan and Mike Tyson´s fan, asks me whether Fedor Emalienenko or Vanderlei Silva won or not.
     
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  8. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    IMO, I think Tyson (in his prime) Was the best fighter EVER. I really do. My FAVORITE was Ray Leonard. But Tyson was the best!!!!!!! Other Opinions I know, will be posted after this!!!!
     
  9. Rosserboy

    Rosserboy Karting

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    Watch out for David Haye. Just moved up to the heavyweight division and being an undisputed cruiserweight champ. Apparently theres a fight between him and Vitali Klishko (not so sure on the spelling sorry) in the pipeline. Haye beat Monte Barrett well 2 weeks ago in his 1st proper heavyweight fight.
     
  10. Fastviper

    Fastviper F1 Rookie

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    1. I think Don King messed up boxing.

    2. People are playing basketball, not practicing boxing.

    3. Remember there were a few years there when it seemed every fight was judged wrong.

    Bad press all together.
     
  11. Osiris_x11

    Osiris_x11 Formula Junior

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    #10 Osiris_x11, Dec 16, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
    ... I'm sure MMA's rise & relative popularity first & foremost has affected pro boxing's notoriety from a consumer's perspective, as well as the bottom-line.

    Not to mention there isn't an enigmatic/mainstream draw in the mold of a pre-Holyfield Mike Tyson in the most marketable division: heavyweight. . .

    Pro boxing, much like vehicles produced by the domestic Big-3, if a desirable product is offered - the masses will surely follow. . .
     
  12. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 rdefabri, Dec 16, 2008
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    This isn't meant as an insult, but I assume you started following boxing more recently (e.g., the Tyson era). This is clearly a subjective discussion, so your opinion counts as much as anyone's, but to answer 2 questions at once - Tyson dominated against tomato cans as does Klitschko today.

    The best heavyweight fighter I ever saw, bar none, was Muhammed Ali. Now, I only remember the tail end of his career, but I do remember the heavyweight division during that time.

    There were "second tier" guys like Earnie Shavers, who was credited as being the hardest puncher EVER by Ali, Norton, and Holmes. The names are a who's who of greats: Joe Frazier (a monster), George Forman (a monster), Ken Norton (a monster), etc....get the idea? These guys beat the crap out of each other, and given that I've watched boxing for more than 30 years, they'd likely all take out Tyson in their prime. At the top of that heap was Muhammed Ali, who despite not being the biggest, clearly was the smartest, the most skilled, best all around heavyweight at the time.

    I so thoroughly disliked Tyson primarily for his hype, and his coronation by the media that he was the best. I always felt an unitimidated fighter would destroy him, and Holyfield proved to be that person. Tyson was exposed and never the same. Muhammed Ali, even when beaten, avenged his losses and avenged them dominantly. Most rankings have him top-10 ALL TIME P4P!

    Now, any top-10 list must include Marvelous Marvin Hagler (one of my all-time faves), Sugar Ray Leonard (who, IMHO, was beaten by Hagler!), and Joe Louis. I've seen all of them fight (other than Lewis), and I am hard pressed to think of many in the modern day that match these guys.
     
  13. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    The Heavyweight division has been a little stale for a while now!! :(:(
     
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  15. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Spice it up! You can take that homo Klitchko! ;)
     
  16. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Well, I *am* a little rusty!! :D:D

    Havent had a fight in many years actually. Getting too old for that now, but I can still throw a few. ;);)

    Klitchko would be a hard man to beat!! A big man, with a big reach, but some HARD PAP punches to his mid-section will soon chop him down to size. :p:p

    The bigger they are.......the harder they fall. ;);)
     
  17. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Boy, We don't see eye to eye on this sport at all. I got into boxing around the Ali/Norton era. I'm a HUGE fan and have OVER 1000 fights on video. So, i'm definitley a historian and do train the sport for years! But again an opinion is an opinion. And I'm NOT saying you are wrong. It's just I don't see it and WE (the world) will NEVER know the truth. I feel Tyson (as much as I DID hate him too) only had difficulty with much bigger fighters. Ali (as much as I do think the WORLD of him) was at the MOST an average size HWT. Ali had a tough time with Frazier, and Tyson was (IMO) a lot better than Frazier. But that's not the only reason I feel Tyson was better than Ali. The way he won fights were SCARY. EVERYONE FEARED him. Ali wasn't as feared. But, You are right, there wasn't a better era in the HWT. division. I give Ali credit 4 that too. But Ali just wouldn't have beaten Tyson in his prime. I guess this disscusion could and WILL go on FOREVER! Now... To my Ray Leonard! He DID beat Hagler. I've watched that fight (back then) atleast 10 - 12 times with a group of fighters and we evaluated EVERY round. The fight itself WAS close. But, What Leonard did to Hagler NO MAN has done before. You have to give him credit for that! He came out of retirement and did that to the P4P best fighter in the world. He made Hagler look average in that fight. Leonard always knew he could beat Hagler. Styles make fights and I think Haglers game plan was wrong. I think he didn't expect Leonard to have that type of gameplan. Anyway, enjoyed the friendly debate. Just my Opinion...
     
  18. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Tyson was the most feared boxer EVER!! :D:D

    He was ferocious in his younger days. He was young and hungry for the title!! The youngest HW Champ ever, there is no denying his strong desire to be the best and crush every opponent placed in front of him. You had to have balls to step in the ring with him in his prime. :):)

    I am a little younger than you young fellas, but I am also HUGE boxing fan!! From Ali to Tyson.........Sugar Ray to Roy Jones Jr, I have loved boxing since I can remember. Growing up as a kid reading about Tyson was very cool. We were not fortunate enough to have Pay TV in Mount Isa back then, so I the only time I could watch his fights was when he made the news for crushing another opponent. :D:D

    I grew up during the Tyson 'era'. He was a monster one of the BEST fighters of all time. :):)

    Boxing has had many legends and you probably cant name just one fighter as the best ever because there are certainly many guys that fall into that catergory. :):)
     
  19. PAP 348

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    #17 PAP 348, Dec 19, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Now........:D:D
    Belittle-Bite_you.jpg
     
  20. Osiris_x11

    Osiris_x11 Formula Junior

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    "One morning I woke up and found my favorite pigeon, Julius, had died I was devastated and was gonna use his crate as my stickball bat to honor him. I left the crate on my stoop and went in to get something and I returned to see the sanitation man put the crate into the crusher. I rushed him and caught him flush on the temple with a titanic right hand he was out cold, convulsing on the floor like an infantile retard."

    -Mike Tyson talking about his childhood.
     
  21. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Does this mean the conversation is fixed? ;)
     
  22. wax

    wax Three Time F1 World Champ
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    First, Don King and Bob Arum both sucked the life out of boxing, along with other things. For instance, Bob Arum/Top Rank pocketed Evel Knievel's take from Snake River broadcast.
    Hiya, Armen! I really, really enjoy replays of "old" fights.

    What's your Top Ten list of best bouts, ever?
     
  23. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Leonard / Hagler was epic.
     
  24. butcher

    butcher Formula 3

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    Manny Pacquiao is the best P4P fighter (boxing) in the world today. Bring on Mayweather out of retirement, Hatton, Juan Diaz, Julio Caesar Chavez Jr. Pacquiao is one of the rare talents that has unbelievable punching power for his size. His last fights (David Diaz and De La Hoya) were against welterweights and Pacquiao is a natural fly to light weight and he still knocked them both out. If anyone saw Paquiao's fights against smaller but great Mexican Champions (Morales, Marquez, and Barrera) you saw the unbelievable power that Pacquiao had to knock them out. What we saw against Diaz and De La Hoya was a much faster fighter against competition, but retaining welter to middle weight super punching power in a flyweight package. That is why Pacquiao fights are the only great draw in Boxing today. He knocks the living- **** out of people. That is why people loved watching Mike Tyson and George Foreman. The knockout is like the Homerun in Baseball (that is what draws crowds). Heck that's why MMA is so popular today, because there are often knock outs or tapouts and judges do not decide outcomes. Other than Manny Pacquiao boxing is essentially dead today, MMA is now king.
     
  25. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Frazer/ Ali fight one.
    Louis/Farr.
    Louis/Marciano
     
  26. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Ali/frazer 3
    Hagler/Hearns
     
  27. rdefabri

    rdefabri Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Wow - we definitely don't agree on many things, but you make good points. Although Holyfield was smaller than Tyson, both times he dominated him. This isn't to take away from Holyfield, because as a Cruiserweight, he was the man, but his main weapon IMHO was not being intimidated. So I'll agree that while Tyson was fearsome, he was effectively neutralized by those that weren't afraid. Of course, you needed a good game plan (Holyfield with clinches and push backs, and Douglas with the jab) to beat him physically. I thought that Holyfield's ability to not be intimidated by Tyson (in fact, he ended up being the intimidator) would have worked well for other Tyson opponents. That's why I believe Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman - in their prime - would have given Tyson a difficult fight. Of those 4, you could say Ali was the weakest physically, but his courage and in-ring skills gave him the edge...and I believe it would be more than enough to counter Tyson's strength / speed. We'll never know, but we can dream, right?

    The Leonard / Hagler debate will never end, which definitely testifies to how good a fight it was. And although I love Hagler, I often say that if it's that close then you can't complain. Certainly, neither guy dominated, but I thought it was obvious that Leonard turned it on during the last 10 seconds of every round...making him look more "busy". And I do agree that Hagler's plan was wrong. Man, those were some good times with Hagler, Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Mugabi - then followed by some good welter / middles like Frank Tate, Michael Nunn, Donald Curry, Marlon Starling (one of my faves), Nigel Benn, Gerald McLellan...the list goes on. I miss those days. The most exciting fighter to me in recent times is Kelly Pavlik. I want to see him and Abraham go at it - that could be a barnstormer...
     
  28. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

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    I've been following boxing for over 40 years.IMO a number of boxers would have taken Tyson, including Joe Louis,The Rock,Ali.
     
  29. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Ruben Olivares vs Chucho Castillo fights.
    Roberto Duran vs Sugar Ray Leonard both fights.
     
  30. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    The early 80's we're definitely my favorite era. I'd really have to think about my 10 favorite fights. Leonard vs Hearns was FOR SURE # 1!!!!!
    all 3 of the Vasquez vs Marquez fights.
    all the Gatti vs Ward fights
    I loved the energy of the DeLa Hoya vs Vargas fight
    Forman vs Lyle was CRAZY!!!!!
    Ali vs Frazier (all of Course)
    Sorry but LOVED Forman vs Frazier I
    Matthew Saad Muhammad vs Yaqui Lopez (I think the 2nd. one???)
    Salvador Sanchez vs Wilfredo Gomez
    Aaron Pryor vs Alexis Arguello I (Tell me he wasn't on something!)
    I loved Leonard vs Duran II
    Hagler vs Mugabi
    Alot of the Bobby Chacon fights: I remember vs Boza Edwards IV the most.
    Hagler vs Hearns ( I was rooting for Hearns though...)
    Michael Carbahal vs Humberto Gonzalez I
    I was so sad when Meldrick Taylor got KO'ed by Chavez with seconds remaining (that fight ruined him!!!!)
    I feared Ruddock after what he did to Dokes
    Azumah Nelson was always exciting
    Corrales vs Castillo I (What the F***)!

    This question is TOO difficult. 100 fights would have been easier!
    Now i'll TRY for my top 10 fighters:(no specific order)except Leonard #1
    1. Ray Leonard (favorite of ALL TIME)
    2. Tommy Hearns
    3. Holmes
    4. Hagler
    5. Azumah Nelson
    6. Roy Jones Jr.
    7. Alexis Arguello
    8. Salvador Sanchez
    9. Michael Spinks (as a Lt. Hwt)
    10. DeLa Hoya
    Also: Calzaghe (warrior!!)
    Diego Corrales (warrior!!)
    Aaron Pryor
    Hector Camacho (don't ask me why)
    Holyfield (only as a Lt. Hvy.)
    Felix Trinidad
    Gotta Love Manny Pacquiao



    Fighters I disliked: (no specific order)
    1. Julio Ceasar Chavez
    2. Bernard Hopkins
    3. Zab Judah
    4. James Toney
    5. Floyd Mayweather
    6. Pernell Whitaker (BORING)
    7. Iran Barkley
    8. Mark Breland (waste)
    9. Michael Nunn
    10. Wilfred Benitez
    Also: Winky Wright
    Fernando Vargas
    Erik Morales
    Never really Liked Tyson in his prime!!!! OK, OK, I was a hater!!!!
    Zab Judah (had to say him again!!!!!!!)


    This list was SO hard to make!!! I probably left out SO MANY fights and fighter.
    Let's hear your lists.
     
  31. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Fenech was robbed in the 1st fight with Nelson
     
  32. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    True, BUT: Nelson answered all questions in the second fight!!! I don't really count the 3rd. fight. They were both in there mid fortys.
     
  33. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Roy Jones Jr was one of the best boxers of our time IMO!! :):)
     
  34. consigliere

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    I, too, miss Tyson. Don't know much about the sport, but the guy was just a crusher.

    I ran into him on Sunset Boulevard, a couple years ago, at a cigar shop and he looked like total crap. He was more than drunk, he was more than stoned, he was just something. He looked cracked out, frankly. I was kind of star-struck, and I said, "Hey, Mike. How you doing?" He said, "Hey, young man." He just looked like hell. He looked like he was sort of wandering around in the world, and he just happened to stumble into that location. Sad.
     
  35. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    You'll appreciate this. A friend of mine represented his wife in the divorce.
     
  36. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Very strange!! :):)

    I bet he took home some big coin for doing that!! :D:D
     
  37. Ferrarinw2

    Ferrarinw2 Five Time F1 World Champ

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    very true.
     
  38. darth550

    darth550 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    So did she. ;)
     
  39. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Is she single?? :eek::eek:
     
  40. BULL RUN

    BULL RUN Formula 3

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    When ever boxing comes up Tysons name always comes up, but he was not even close to being one of the greatest of all time. A very young Tyson used great head movement to get inside and murder the body. After he won the title, and his original brain trust of Gus Demotta/Kevin Rooney, Jim Jacobs, and Bill Cayton was gone he surrounded himself with all the wrong people and turned into a one dimensional head hunter. Sub Par competition doesn't help his case for claiming a top ten spot in the heavyweight picture either.

    To the original question. Klitsco has a very good jab against stationary targets, and a decent right hand. Against average heavyweights of the 80's he would not make the top 10.
     
  41. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Just watched a few fights of Roy Jones Jr. You almost forget how good he was. since the Tarver/Ruiz/Johnson/Calzaghe fights. I just haven't been too into him. But then you go back 7-10 years. WOW, HE WAS GREAT!!!! Not taking anything away from him, He is one of my all time favorites. But it's just sad to see greatness fall that bad!

    I still would like to see others top 10, bottom 10 and Ten favorite bouts...
     
  42. BULL RUN

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    Here's my top 10. Based on me forever remembering them, not that they were the greatest.

    1. Holmes Cooney.....Holmes my favorite fighter of that time. A masterful boxing performance.
    2. Pavlik Taylor I......Was ringside. Pavlik my favorite today
    3. Barrera Morales I......Was there. Greatest sporting event I ever saw up to that point.
    4. Vasquez Marquez III.....Neither are human
    5. Leonard Hearns I.........Greatest comeback I ever saw.
    6. Boza Edwards Bobby Chacon...Chacon pure guts
    7. Holmes Witherspoon......Whew. That was close!
    8. Benn McClellan..........Sad, Sad, Sad.
    9. Hagler Hearns.......Loved Hagler. What a fighter is all about
    10. Tyson Douglas..... possibly the biggest upset in sports period.
     
  43. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    Wasn't the Chacon vs Edwards IV the fight that Chacons wife commited suicide the NIGHT before, and he still fought... and won?
     
  44. BULL RUN

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    Chacon fought Edwards twice. The second fight is the one I refer to. The fight your referring to was against someone named Salvador Ugalde. Good memory. I had to look that one up.

    Chacon was a great warrior, too bad he stayed in way too long and was seen picking up aluminum cans to support a cocaine habit in the 90's. He also suffers from pugilistic dementia.
     
  45. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    He fought Limon 4 times. I just looked it up. My wrong!!!! So sad about the Aluminum can story. What a waste!!!! DRUGS!!!!!!!
     
  46. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
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    Roy is a legend, no doubt about it! :):)

    Here is a youtube vid of some of his highlights. :D:D

    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=UDWnMXzgeZo&feature=related
     
  47. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    OMG Armen I never knew you were such a fight fan!! Well, I started following boxing after my dad took me to a fight in 1968 (yep, Im that old!).

    Anyway I think Ali (in his prime pre 1967) would have caused a Tyson knockout in the later rounds with ease. I know what you're saying about Tyson being feared and having a truly explosive style. BUT, he depended on luring guys in and fighting them at close quarters or on the INSIDE with vicious uppercuts and hooks/check hooks. Ali fighting from the OUTSIDE would have kept him at bay with his ripping jabs and right-hand leads and by the latter rounds Tyson would have been reduced to a standing target. Even in Tysons prime, he failed to knock out the first guy he faced who could jab (Bonecrusher Smith) and the fight went the distance with Tyson pretty much neutralized, and 2 years later another guy who could jab (Buster Douglas) knocked him out! I think you get my point...

    BTW I love Ray Leonard as well, a real thinking fighter - but Im biased: our respective wives are long-time friends so Ive met him and I think he is a class act.
     
  48. BULL RUN

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    #46 BULL RUN, Dec 31, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
    Before claiming Tyson as the greatest fighter ever, look at the records of Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, Joe Louis, and others with long distinguished career's. Tyson's rein was much too short, and the level of competition not so good either. He also didn't fair well when he faced adversity. He could have been one of the greatest if he'd been able to hold on to his original trainers and managers.

    A prime Tyson, and a Prime Ali fight would have looked like Ali Frazier, so we almost saw it. I'd give Ali the victory two out of three times also.
     
  49. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    I love the point you make re: Ali/Frazier: two out of three, But I beleive Tyson was alot better than Frazier.
     
  50. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    But didn't Ali have trouble with shorter guys... Frazier...
     
  51. BULL RUN

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    Tyson was more explosive than Fraizer for sure, but I do think Fraizer had more skills. That would have been an intriguing match up. Who knows if Ali would have gotten up if a similar left hook from Tyson landed like the first Ali Fraizer fight. The only other "shorter" fighter I can think of that gave Ali trouble was Oscar Bonavena who was similar in style to Fraizer.
     
  52. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    It's funny, I can't believe i'm sticking up for this guy, I never really liked him in his prime!!!!!!!
     

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