Power window madness

Discussion in '308/328' started by ATSAaron, Nov 6, 2006.

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  1. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula Junior
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    Jun 1, 2004
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    I pulled apart my PS door to fix the speaker. While I was in there I decided to replace the grease in the power window motor.

    I got it all back together, and have the cables routed the best I can using the 308 door parts diagram from the Ferrari Owners's Site......except the bottom tensioner pulley. If I install that the cables are so tight that the motor refuses to work on it's own. With the tensioner pulley removed the window actually functions pretty good and the cables haven't jumped off.

    Anyone else run into this?

    Aaron
     
  2. spiderseeker

    spiderseeker Formula 3

    Jul 22, 2005
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    If you use the "search" function, there are several threads about power windows and a few cover the routing of the cable I think. Slow power windows are a common problem , so there are lots of threads about it, in great detail.
     
  3. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    There is a very good diagram in the parts book if you want to cheat :) TAV 108 in the 78 parts book shows a very good picture, as well as the correct cable routing. This is a right of passage for Ferrari DIY's, so do not feel alone. I think we all think this stuff looks simple enough we dont need a book, and then WHAM! More than likely, you have the cables routed wrong, or they are twisted. If it was right when you took it apart, its obviously not now. I fought with mine for over two hours, kept taking the motor out and looking it over again, refusing to look at a diagram because I really just wanted to learn the hard way. Once you figure it out its actually very simple. Quite elegant actually, that they could make a window winder that is that lightweight.

    My passenger door has a clunk now that never existed before, and I suspect a cable is jumping over another on the cable wheel and then snapping back into place. I will have to go in there again and play with them this winter. Another idea that I believe has good merit, are the pulleys. I found one that was so dry it wasnt turning, just allowing the cable to slide over it. The pulleys in the clutch cable are reported to be the same size, but have bearings inside??? That could make a dramatic difference.
     
  4. branko

    branko F1 Rookie
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    My driver side window is also getting real slow and I'm dreading taking off the door panel and tackling the problem. I might try it this winter.
     
  5. timr

    timr Karting

    Sep 24, 2006
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    Just did drivers side. Followed the directions in the FChat thread. I ran into the same problem you did. I found that I did not have enough wire coiled on the motor as when I took it out. It took a few times of seeing how much should be wrpped on before stringing over the rollers but I eventually figured it out. I would suggest on door 2 that you mark all points on the cable/rollers before removing anything.

    One point on the directions on FChat, I did not remove my window frames or glass like it suggested. I sat on the floor and cleaned the motor without really leaving the door. It's possible, but cold on your ass after 5 hours of trying to get it right!

    I got more tips on this if you want, PM me.
     
  6. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    I havnt read all the motor threads, and I am not sure what you mean above about removing the glass or the frame, but I didnt need to remove either one to pull the motor out. I had it in and out a few times trying to figure it out.
     
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  8. BLUROAD

    BLUROAD F1 Veteran
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    I have the opposite problem.. My window goes up so fast it tries to launch itself off the door and makes a loud snap sound as it hits the top of the molding.. JJ
     
  9. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula Junior
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    I pulled the driver's side door apart tonight. It's power window motor was DOA. Turns out it had hair or carpet wrapped around the shaft. It couldn't turn at all. I took it apart, lubed it, removed the hair/carpet and reinstalled it. I routed the cable EXACTLY as I did on the passenger side and the lenght came up correct.

    So I removed and replaced the passenger side motor and cable twice tonight. I could never make it fit with the tensioner pulley. So I assembled it without the passenger side with no tensioner pulley, window seems to work fine.

    Aaron
     
  10. Artvonne

    Artvonne F1 Veteran

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    Again though, if it was working before with the tensioner pulley installed, and now it wont, you still dont have it back together properly. Look at it some more, I bet youll see it. I seem to recall having the same problem. The cable under the tensioner is most likely routed incorrectly. Coming from the motor, from the top front pulley, the cable goes down to the bottom pulley, then up to the rear upper, then down to the rear bottom pulley, then over the tensioner and directly back to the motor. Also, make sure the cables are coming off the motor drum correctly. They should be off the front most side as installed in the car.
     
  11. BigAl

    BigAl F1 Veteran

    Mar 17, 2002
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    same here Branko. I've been toying with the idea of replacing the fuseblock with Bridman's as I read that some users had slow windows, replaced the fuseblock and they worked like new. Might kill two birds with one stone....
     
  12. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    BigAl,
    The fuseblocks might help a little but if your windows are really slow, you got lube issues!

    Birdman
     
  13. BigAl

    BigAl F1 Veteran

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    quite right
     
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  15. Argento839

    Argento839 F1 Veteran
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    Birdman, since you know electronics well, have you any feedback or opinions on those boosters that you can install to make the windows work better? I am going to try to lubricate my windows first to see if that works once I get my car back from paint as they are so slow. I will just live with the slow windows if there is a danger of hurting the wiring system... Also, I am going to install your fuseblocks.... I will do anything to improve my electronics - I don't ever want to have to my horn sounding off by itself again!
     
  16. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 BigTex, Nov 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ....here!
    Window%2520regulator%2520diagram.jpg
     
  17. Argento839

    Argento839 F1 Veteran
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    typo above bugger! What I was trying to say guys is that the horn can just start going off by itself. I had to pull that fuse for the horn to make it stop! My mechanic fixed it and it was no big deal really other than embarassment but I was thinking that Birdman's fusebox might help such issues??
     
  18. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula Junior
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    BEAUTIFUL!!

    Thanks.

    Aaron
     
  19. Tillman

    Tillman Consigliere
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    Are ya kidding???

    Man, I'm glad I have a 328
     
  20. spiderseeker

    spiderseeker Formula 3

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    What do the 328's use for window regulators ?
     
  21. Tillman

    Tillman Consigliere
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    #19 Tillman, Nov 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    the window is driven by a spiral metal coil that is pushed forwards and back (up and down) by the motor via a gear-like machanism. The window lift bracket is permanently attached to one end of this coil, and the other is free floating.
    lift.jpg
    partno.jpg
     
  22. sjmst

    sjmst F1 Veteran
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    I had them installed in my Mondial. Sped the windows up by about twice as fast.
     
  23. timr

    timr Karting

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    #21 timr, Dec 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Sorry for the delay Branko. Hope these give you insight to what it looks like inside.

    timr

    Pulley System Bottom3.JPG
    Worn Out Window Stop2.JPG
    Window Wiring2.JPG
    Upper right Corner2.JPG
    Pulley near Latch2.JPG
    Lower Pulleys2.JPG
     
  24. RVIDRCI

    RVIDRCI Formula 3

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    There is absolutley no chance you are talking about a 308, none.....
     
  25. branko

    branko F1 Rookie
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    Tim, thanks for posting the photos. I did a search on 'slow windows' and found one thread that said to start with the window up, another said half way up, while a third said to start with the window down. Is there a 'best way' or does it not really matter?
     
  26. rolindsay

    rolindsay Formula 3

    Jul 14, 2006
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    ...unless there are worn out, incorrect or missing rubber tracks in the window frame. My window FLIES without the tracks in place. (Don't ask how I know. It's embarissing.) The "clink" reported to happen at the top makes me think that may be the case. BTW, I have seen inside of three different doors lately and ALL THREE have perished rubber bump-stops at the bottom of the window travel. The drive slams the glass into these stops - or if missing, the steel frame! I have replaced my bumpers. ...word to the wise, etc.

    -rick '79 308GTB
     
  27. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    May 5, 2001
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    This link has a very detailed 308 power window service procedure:
    Fix for slow windows on 308/328/Mondial
    http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/discus/messages/256120/114996.html

    I disagree with Stewart Chung's posts about needing to let the tensioner float. You get that effect when you've miss-routed the cable(been there).

    If you do the procedure with the window up(see above thread), you can remove, service, verify cable installation & cable operation, etc. w/o having to clamp the cable to the window. Once everything's operating smoothly tighten the window clamps & you're all set.

    If you start with the window down you'll have to raise/fight with it to access the cable clamps on the window's bottos.
     
  28. timr

    timr Karting

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    Branko
    I agree with Verell. Start with the window up. Trust me when he says you will have to "fight" with the access to the window cable clamps. You will essentially be guessing at the slack length so it's good to know where everything is in the set up prior to disassembling. I'd also replace those little stops at the bottom. That's an easy fix.

    timr
     
  29. frog

    frog Karting

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    #27 frog, Nov 24, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Bump for an old thread - and couldn't find any other one with an appropriate picture!

    Trying to work out how the window attaches to the wire going from preceding page diagram...Heath Robinson consulting engineer???

    At present, each corner of the removed windows has a sequence of.... 6mm bolt/large washer/teflon(?) washer/glass/teflon washer/large washer/spacer/large flange nut.....parts diagram indicates there may be a couple more washers under the nut missing.
    Only thought I have, the missing washers are used to clamp onto the wire when the nut is tightened....surely not, or is there some other devious detail I'm missing?
    Window Regulator Diagram.jpg
     
  30. Helmut

    Helmut Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2004
    635
    Hi rick,
    I would be curious where you got those little bumpers as 2 of mine are gone as well. thanks, Helmut
     
  31. Helmut

    Helmut Formula Junior

    Dec 11, 2004
    635
    From my experience, when the cable suddenly feels to short when trying to get it back in it may be because its not coiled up properly around the little groves in the motor mechanism wheel. make sure the wire wound up correctly on the wheel thats attached to the motor.
    For some reason the cable on mine is quite a bit tighter on the passenger side than on the driver side.

    Helmut
     
  32. Paul_308

    Paul_308 Formula 3
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    Someone with time on their hands over Thanksgiving should put together a list of slow-window posts w/ urls and rate them for subject and quality. A single search won't do it. Much of it is repeats. But still valuable resource exists there.

    Although there is some consensus like removing grease, there is no single way to approach the job like adding relays or not, and no single approach to replacing the cable, like window up/down/halfway. Not everyone needs to agree nor approaches each job the same way.

    But we could do the next poor victim a great benefit by providing a sticky that contains a rated post list.
     
  33. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran
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    Wow, talk about an old thread back from the dead!

    The windows in these things are definitely a poor design. There are multiple things that slow them down.

    1. Resistance to the window itself moving caused by the window tracks.
    2. Dirty pulleys with no/old lube, not wanting to turn as the cable moves over them.
    3. The old grease in the motor gearbox has turned to sticky goo.

    All of the three above issues translate to a lot of mechanical resistance. This is turn makes the motor work harder to push the window up. The result is that the motor draws much more current that it is supposed to. If you know your Ohm's Law, when the motor draws more current, that means that the electrical resistance in the circuit causes a larger voltage drop, so there is less voltage at the motor. Less voltage at the motor translates to a slower motor. Causes of resistance in the circuit are:

    1. The godawful fuseblocks (you guys know where I stand on that!)

    2. Switch contacts (clean them with contact cleaner, it really can help! I like the stuff from Radio Shack.)

    3. Long circuit path. The current has to go from the battery to the fuseblock to the switch to the motor, back to the switch and then to ground. It doesn't have a "local" ground in the door because the motors change direction by changing polarity. That means there are two wires from the switch to the motor. When the motor goes up, you have one polarity. When it goes down, the wires change polarity. This can only happen at the switch. So in the case of a Mondial or injected 308 where the switches are in the center console, the current has to go from the fuseblocks to the switch to the window, all the way back to the switch, then to ground! I measured the voltage at my Mondial driver's window motor once and found only 7 volts when the window was going up! That's barely more than half the voltage!! Where the heck did the other 5 voltage go? It turned into heat at resistance points along the circuit path!

    Ever wonder why your carbed 308 has a much faster driver's window than passenger window? For the drivers window, the switch for the window is in the driver's door. The power has a short run from the motor, back to the switch and to ground. However, in the passenger window, there are two switches....one in the passenger door and another in the driver's door. When the driver puts the passenger window up, the power goes from the battery to the fuseblocks to the driver's door switch, across the car to the passenger door switch, down to the motor, back up to the passenger door switch, across the car again to the driver's door switch, then to ground. I'll bet there is less than 6 volts getting to that motor! (The path is shorter if the passenger switch is used to put the window up....I'll bet it's a tad faster).

    The best and most complete way to fix these windows is to:

    1. Disassemble and clean all the mechanical stuff. Pain in the neck, but makes a big difference.
    2. Clean the contacts on all the switches with contact cleaner.
    3. Replace the fuseblocks (small plug for me, but it's true...OEM ones are a large cause of resistance).
    4. Install window accelerators.

    A little plug for the accelerators.....I have a set of the window accelerators in the Mondial and yes they do work. The latest generation ones are really well made, completely "potted" in epoxy and totally waterproof. I have nothing to do with the product except being a satisfied customer. They work better if you have cleaned the mechanical stuff too so you are fighting as little mechanical resistance as possible.

    How do they work? They have three terminals: a ground wire that goes so a solid ground in the door, and a wire that hooks to each of the wires on the window motor. Inside the boxes are a small pair of relays. When the "up" wire on the motor goes hot (you are pushing the up button to put the window up), it uses that signal to activate a relay and ground the other motor wire to the local ground wire in the door. When you push the down button, it swaps and puts the other wire to local ground. It essentially cuts out the long path for ground back to the switch. I had a 2 volt improvement (9 instead of 7 volts) at the window motor with this gadget and it made a noticeable difference in window speed.

    Many people choose to just put in the accelerators and not touch the mechanicals. You will get a good improvement in speed for sure. However, you will get even better results if you do the mechanical clean up too. I will admit that the mechanicals are a pain in the butt to disassemble and clean. At the very least, pull the door open and lube the window tracks and pulleys! It helps!

    Birdman
     
  34. GeoMetry

    GeoMetry Formula Junior

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    Has anyone has looked into retrofitting the 328 mechanism into a 308?
     
  35. Crallscars

    Crallscars F1 Rookie

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    I just finished cleaning and greasing my left door, now the window will slowly creep up. The measured voltage at the motor is just under 6 volts. The measured voltage at the switch is about 6.5 The loss is somewhere between the battery and the switch on both wires. The loss includes fuses, loss of .2volts, ignition switch, harness gang connectors, loss in the wire and ground lug connection...where ever the heck that is.

    I am going to purchase, per door, 2 SPDT (single pole double throw) relays, mount them under the dash close to the door connector. Control them with the Ferrari window wiring and power them with a large wire, fused and powered from a high current non switched source. A good ground can or should be available close to where I mount the relays.

    The reason I dont want the relays in the doors is because I dont want to add additional wires to the door harness and have to worry about water getting into the relays and additional connections.
     
  36. GeoMetry

    GeoMetry Formula Junior

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    I have yet to take a look inside my doors but it sounds like an adventure I will take someday. I am curious as I look at the drawing posted above, what keeps the cable from slipping at the motor? Is it one long cable or are there multiple cables?
     
  37. FF8929

    FF8929 Formula Junior

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    There is just one cable. Its two ends are anchored inside the drum.
     
  38. GeoMetry

    GeoMetry Formula Junior

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    #36 GeoMetry, Nov 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have an additional problem with my passenger door window. I can actually live with my slow windows but this other problem demands attention so I will probably address the slowness at the same time. The window on my passenger door does not raise straight up. The rear of the window is a bit lower than it should be relative to the front. Looking at the car with the window up and the door closed it is obvious because the gap between the door frame and the window gets smaller at the top. Even this I could live with but it has gotten to the point now that if I close the door with the window up the glass touches the door frame and it has actually chipped the paint. So now I am worried about the glass breaking or the chip getting worse so it just has to be addressed. What is involved to get that alignment adjusted?
    IMG_3922.jpg
     
  39. FF8929

    FF8929 Formula Junior

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    The window clamps to the drive cable at the front and rear. To adjust, loosen the nuts and washers, level the window, and retighten. There is also an adjustable up-stop at the rear clamp.
     

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